Anti-racist racism

[Phrossack]

That's like denying your alcoholism while downing a bottle of whiskey

 

[Tahuti]

I have a cousin with OCD. He compulsively sorts all clothing in his closet based on some criterion or another, and everything must be categorized and pigeonholed. He can't help it.

Domen is like that but with races and haplogroups. I can imagine his closet has rows of skulls and photos of faces that he obsessively sorts into Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid, and other 19th-century pigeonholes.

Must...categorize...

When I saw that you made the last reply in the thread, I had to check out.

You did not disappoint!

 

[tetley]

Do note that by Domen's own definition of race, Judaism is not a race. Torah teaches that ancestry is passed down on the father's side--not a function of your entire ancestry. Thus this form of Judaism claimed is a haplotype--not a race.

 

[Domen]

Torah teaches that ancestry is passed down on the father's side

Since Talmudic times (200 BC - 500 AD), Jewish status has been passed down on the mother's side.

 

[Borachio]

Yeah. I really don't why, though.

The more I learn about people, and their various cultural practices and traditions throughout history, the more I think they're just plain quirky, and do things for no discernible reason at all.

In general, is it true that's it's better to do something for the wrong reason than it is to do nothing at all?

 

[Domen]

Sand's entire work is political, and his rejection of the Jews as a people has similar undertones to fascism. For instance, the fact that he rejects Jews as a people- despite that Jews almost universally regard themselves as a people today- suggests a racialist element to his work. I can elaborate, if you'd like.

Well Jews did not universally regard themselves as a people in the past.

For example in 1921 census in Poland 25,83% of Jews (734,916) declared Polish national identity, while ca. 74% declared Jewish national identity.

So while majority of Jews considered themselves Jews, it was not universal.

 

[Tahuti]

Well Jews did not universally regard themselves as a people in the past.

For example in 1921 census in Poland 25,83% of Jews (734,916) declared Polish national identity, while ca. 74% declared Jewish national identity.

So while majority of Jews considered themselves Jews, it was not universal.

This doesn't necessarily mean that those 25% Jews who considered themselves Polish opposed the view that Jews constitute an ethnicity.

For me personally, Jewish constitutes a heritage by descent, not my actual ethnicity - both by self-identification and identification by others - which is Dutch.

 

[Domen]

Well, indeed, those 26% could consider themselves as part of a specific ethnic group or sub-group within the Polish nation.

Or some of them, at least.

For me personally, Jewish constitutes a heritage by descent, not my actual ethnicity

But isn't this because you are not a believer of Judaism and / or becuase you are only partially Jewish?

Vast majority of Poland's Jews in 1921 were religious Jews - believers of Judaism. Including all of those 26% (because this particular figure refers to national identities among believers of Judaism - so it does not take into consideration people of Jewish descent who were not religious or were Christians).

Though among those Jews who considered themselves to be Polish there were probably not many Orthodox Jews.

==================================

There were three categories of Jewish people in pre-war Poland:

Believers of Judaism
Speakers of Yiddish or Hebrew
People with Jewish national identity

Those categories were very strongly overlapping each other but were not equal.

The number of people who were not believers of Judaism and still spoke Yiddish or Hebrew as mother tongue, or / and declared Jewish national identity, was very small. On the other hand, there were relatively many believers of Judaism who declared Polish national identity and / or spoke Polish.

The number of believers of Judaism who spoke Polish as mother tongue was smaller than the number of believers of Judaism who declared Polish national identity, which indicates that many Jewish people identified with the Polish nation despite speaking Yiddish or Hebrew as main language.

 

[James Stuart]

That's like denying your alcoholism while downing a bottle of whiskey

And showing an unrelated chart detailing the average whiskey consumption of 17th century Mazovia.

 

[Domen]

James, in another thread you wrote about the Holocaust:

2nd picture: A crime committed by predominantly Christian, radical German militants that did not involve a single Palestinian.

Let's see what a Jewish-American author, Theodore N. Kaufman, wrote about those alleged "Christians" in his book "Germany Must Perish" (and he was writing that book during the Holocaust in Europe):

From chapter "Germanism Abroad":

True Germanism, being as it is a purely primitive paganism with some modern "refinements" finds that it can express itself best by committing barbaric and bestial acts of violence against civilized peoples. Thus, if Germanism were ever to prevail upon this earth we can be sure that every step would be taken though few indeed are these steps which the Germans have not already taken! to reawaken every dormant animal instinct and vicious trait in man. Thus it has been a chief aim of the German to eradicate each and every one of the three principal religions from this earth. However, the German was practical enough to realize that he could not successfully combat all the religions at one time with any hope of emerging supreme. But since their extinction was absolutely necessary to the propagation of the German dogma of hate and destruction, the Germans conceived their now infamous and ofttried trick of pitting first the believers in one religion against those of another until, at a single coup, they could deliver the final knock-out blow against the single remaining adversary. It was in Austria that they first tested the efficiency of their scheme, a test which, at that time, actually constituted organized high treason against that country. Germanism had its birth in Austria as an organized movement founded and headed by an Austrian statesman, one Schoenerer, in 1878. Its activity was rather limited in scope until 1898 when Schoenerer joined with Hasse; from that time on the Pan-German League in Berlin became the head of the movement in Austria, and it proceeded at once to establish permanent bases of operation in that country. First a plan of attack was decided upon. Hasse and Schoenerer agreed that if Germany was ever to rule over Austria the latter country must first be forced to break with Rome (Roman Catholicism). In order to achieve this objective the leaders decided upon a roundabout course of action. They therefore first created an artificially stimulated pseudo-religious revivalist movement having anti-Semitism as its primary and immediate purpose. The German Hasse found some renegade, so-called Catholics (though such men were no more Catholics in spirit than those men of any religion who, hiding behind a pulpit of a church, rail against God and preach hatred and intolerance) members of the leading Catholic Party, who agreed to act as leaders of such a movement. It was not long thereafter that a frightful wave of anti-Semitic persecution began to sweep over Austria, continuing unabated in intensity, until Schoenerer and Hasse felt that a sufficiently high degree of agitation and terrorism had been reached. Thereupon they turned their efforts against the Catholic Party and in turn, started a rabid anti-Catholic, "free from-Rome" movement of their own, Schoenerer declaring that "the chains which tie us to a Church hostile to Germanism must be broken." The "No Popery" and anti-Catholic agitation was stimulated by Hasse and Schoenerer through their introduction into Austria of numerous pseudo-evangelical, free-booter German clergymen who were liberally paid, with money and liquor, to rail against the Catholics. Though the complete success of this plan was not achieved, it did have a salutary effect; that of establishing and proving that audacity and ruthless aggressiveness of the German.

So much "Christian" were the German Nazis.

You can also see that Hitler recalled only Pagan Germanic deities in his "Mein Kempf", such as for example goddess Skadi. The "Gott" that German soldiers prayed to during WW2, was a purely Germanic god. The official doctrine of Nazi Germany rejected Jesus Christ and the Holy Family, because they were ethnic Jews. Germans called that new religion "practical Christianity" or "positive Christianity" - read about it.

=====================

Here is for example the excerpt from "Mein Kampf" in which Hitler recalled Skadi:

"(...) In the north and in the south the poison of alien races was devouring the flesh of our nation and even Vienna was gradually less and less resembling a German city. 'The Emperor's House' was becoming Czech where only that was possible; finally the hand of the goddess of everlasting justice and unrelenting vengeance killed the greatest enemy of the Germanness of Austria - Archduke Franz Ferdinand. (...)"

"This particular goddess mentioned by Hitler, is Skadi (from Pagan, Old Norse pantheon):

http://www.wizardrealm.com/norse/gods.html

"Skadi is the Goddess of Winter and of the Hunt. She is married to Njord, the gloomy Sea God, noted for his beautiful bare feet (which is how Skadi came to choose him for her mate.) Supposedly the bare foot is an ancient Norse symbol of fertility. The marriage wasn't too happy, though, because she really wanted Baldur for her husband. She is the goddess of Justice, Vengeance, and Righteous Anger and is the deity who delivers the sentence upon Loki to be bound underground with a serpent dripping poison upon his face in payment for his crimes. (...)"

 

[Tahuti]

Theodore Kaufman was a noted Germanophobe and 'Germany must Perish' should have been banned in the Allied countries for giving the Nazis extra propaganda ammunition. In fact, you may hold up Theodore Kaufman as an example of anti-racist racism since his hostility to ethnic Germans may have been the result of Nazi persecution of Jews.

Adolf Hitler saw Jesus Christ as a Non-Jew (Palestinian? ) who actually opposed the Jews. Likewise, Christian anti-semites viewed Biblical Jews as being different from modern Jews, and that's where the Khazarian hypothesis comes in. (Nevermind that modern-day Khazars are, well, Azerbaijanis)

The Gott mit uns of the Nazis was pretty much the Judeo-Christian god, being an extension of the same motto used during the German Empire which was indeed explicitly Christian. Hitler wasn't anti-Christian in the 'oppose everything that is Christian sense'. Rather, he sought to use elements of Christianity to found his own pseudoreligion to advance his totalitarian agenda. Basically, a modern European equivalent of Muhammad, except that Hitler failed - fortunately.

 

[Domen]

He was called "Germanophobe" after WW2, but during WW2 such feelings were common.

And also being a Germanophobe doesn't make all of his factual info automatically wrong.

If you read Mein Kampf (from 1925) it confirms much of what Kaufman wrote later.

The Nazi party was not openly Pagan but their goal was to restore Paganism.

Rather, he sought to use elements of Christianity to found his own pseudoreligion

Exactly. He ruled a predominantly Christian country so he couldn't just tell them openly to be Pagan. He could not openly oppose everything that is Christian because vast majority of his subjects were Christian. Yet he definitely persecuted Catholicism and favoured Protestantism, which he saw as much more connected to German culture (while associating Catholicism with the Slavs that he hated) and also he saw it as easier to transform into his pseudo-religion, because Protestant denominations are "independent from Rome" and far more "plastic" - you can easily create national churches, new "sects", etc. - as is actually the case today in the USA.

Also he was voted into power by Protestants, which can be seen when you compare the map of religions in pre-war Germany with the map showing percent of votes for the NSDAP in each region.

=========================

Claiming that the Nazis were Christian is as correct as claiming that Hitler was "Austrian not German".

While in "Mein Kampf" Hitler clearly wrote:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13592734&postcount=270

(...) In relatively early adolescence I had an opportunity to take part in a nationalistic struggle in old Austria. We had a school organization and we expressed our views using cornflowers and black-red-gold colours. We were saluting each other with 'Heil' and instead of 'Kaiserlied' we were singing, despite warnings and punishments, 'Deutschland über Alles'. This way, we young people were educating ourselves politically (...) I was not among the indifferent people and soon I became a fanatical German nationalist, but not in modern party-related understanding of this word. Development in this direction was in my case very fast, so fast that already when a 15 years old boy I could distinguish between dynastic 'patriotism', and national 'nationalism'. I understood the latter much better. Already as boys we knew, that this Austrian state did not show any affection for us, Germans. Our knowledge about methods of conduct of the Habsburgs was being confirmed each day by daily experiences. In the north and in the south the poison of alien races was devouring the flesh of our nation and even Vienna was gradually less and less resembling a German city. "The Emperor's House" was becoming Czech where only that was possible; finally the hand of the goddess of everlasting justice and unrelenting vengeance killed the greatest enemy of the Germanness of Austria - Archduke Franz Ferdinand. He was killed by a bullet whom he had personally helped. After all, he was the main patron of the movement the goal of which was to turn Austria into a Slavic country. The embryo of the World War and indeed the total ruin of Germany were caused by fatal alliance between the young German Reich with the Austrian artificial state. (...) Since my earliest adolescence I was convinced, that the destruction of Austria is the necessary condition for the security of the German race. (...) The misfortune for the German race was especially the ruling House of Habsburg. The consequences of that was my passionate love of the German Austria and my deep hatred of the Austrian State. (...)

(...) Because the domination of the ethnic German element had been broken, the system served for games between particular nationalities. Generally the line of development was established against Germans. Especially from times when the Archduke, Franz Ferdinand, began to grow in strength, and he supported Czech ambitions. The future ruler of the monarchy attempted with use of all means to cause the process of De-Germanization. This is why often German settlements were being slowly but efficiently subjected to influence of foreign-speaking nations. In Lower Austria the process was much faster and many Czechs considered Vienna to be their own city. The main idea of that new Habsburg, whose family spoke Czech (wife of the Archduke was an ethnic Czech countess and in her family there were strong anti-German traditions), aimed at establishing in Central Europe a Slavic state with Catholic religion as a counter-weight to Orthodox Russia. That's how religion became once again involved in serving political concepts, which was frequent in Habsburg policies. (...) After the war of 1870 the House of Habsburg slowly, with premeditation and determination, started an effort leading to rooting out the dangerous German race - it was the goal of the Slavophile family of the emperor. (...)

 

[Tahuti]

I don't dispute your view that Hitler was anti-Christian. I do dispute the view that Hitler wanted to revive Paganism. My view in a nutshell is that Hitler considered Christianity to be corrupted and that he wanted he wanted to restore this Germanic Christianity (which in reality never existed) with him as its final prophet.

 

[Domen]

So - it seems - rather than restoring Paganism, he wanted to create his own Protestant sect.

Adolf Hitler saw Jesus Christ as a Non-Jew (Palestinian?)

Palestinians are perhaps too dark-pigmented for Nazi gods...

 

[Domen]

In fact, you may hold up Theodore Kaufman as an example of anti-racist racism since his hostility to ethnic Germans may have been the result of Nazi persecution of Jews.

Indeed, what is ridiculous in Kaufman's book is that he believed that Germans constituted some single race (rather than being one of the most "mongrelized" nations in Europe - which is apparently the case, if we look at modern research on genetic distances, Germans appear in the middle between all other Europeans, they look like being a blend of all people around them, which is in agreement with their geographic location), that all of them were rabid supporters of the Nazi ideology, and that it was because of their inherent "genetic" features, rather than their brainwashed minds, which could happen (and did) as well to many Non-Germans.

But Kaufman only repeated what Nazi Germany's propaganda itself claimed about the "German race".

 

[Tahuti]

Perhaps ultimately, racism is about accusing ethnic groups to be intrisinically racist. Thus, all racism has anti-racist intentions, and fails horribly.

 

[Domen]

Perhaps ultimately, racism is about accusing ethnic groups to be intrisinically racist.

Is it? Usually it is about accusing them of other things - like being inherently inferior, inherently evil, etc.

 

[James Stuart]

James, in another thread you wrote about the Holocaust:



Let's see what a Jewish-American author, Theodore N. Kaufman, wrote about those alleged "Christians" in his book "Germany Must Perish" (and he was writing that book during the Holocaust in Europe):

From chapter "Germanism Abroad":



So much "Christian" were the German Nazis.

You can also see that Hitler recalled only Pagan Germanic deities in his "Mein Kempf", such as for example goddess Skadi. The "Gott" that German soldiers prayed to during WW2, was a purely Germanic god. The official doctrine of Nazi Germany rejected Jesus Christ and the Holy Family, because they were ethnic Jews. Germans called that new religion "practical Christianity" or "positive Christianity" - read about it.

=====================

Here is for example the excerpt from "Mein Kampf" in which Hitler recalled Skadi:

"(...) In the north and in the south the poison of alien races was devouring the flesh of our nation and even Vienna was gradually less and less resembling a German city. 'The Emperor's House' was becoming Czech where only that was possible; finally the hand of the goddess of everlasting justice and unrelenting vengeance killed the greatest enemy of the Germanness of Austria - Archduke Franz Ferdinand. (...)"

"This particular goddess mentioned by Hitler, is Skadi (from Pagan, Old Norse pantheon):

http://www.wizardrealm.com/norse/gods.html

"Skadi is the Goddess of Winter and of the Hunt. She is married to Njord, the gloomy Sea God, noted for his beautiful bare feet (which is how Skadi came to choose him for her mate.) Supposedly the bare foot is an ancient Norse symbol of fertility. The marriage wasn't too happy, though, because she really wanted Baldur for her husband. She is the goddess of Justice, Vengeance, and Righteous Anger and is the deity who delivers the sentence upon Loki to be bound underground with a serpent dripping poison upon his face in payment for his crimes. (...)"

You really are obsessed with text-banging my eyes aren't you? I don't read drivel from racists. I made that clear two months ago, when I mocked your ridiculous obsession with discredited racial theories from the 1950s in World History. You text-raped me there until I quit CFC out of disgust with what this once-great site had become. I'm only back here out of sheer boredom, since my business shut down. Don't worry, the big bad man who pointed out that your ideas are racist, backwards, and older than Flying Pig will be gone again as soon as his new job starts in the new year. You can go back to making charts and graphs to prove that Poland into space now.

Literally none of this has anything whatsoever to do with anything that I wrote, IN EITHER THREAD. I guess you couldn't harass me in that thread, since ori closed it, so you have to scrabble to find another one I'm posting in.

 

[Domen]

You really are obsessed with text-banging my eyes aren't you?

Wa-wa-wee-wa.

Descendant of Headless Kings got mad at me and thinks that I even care about him, or his eyes.

You can go back to making charts and graphs to prove that Poland into space now.

You seem to be the only racist in this thread. Racist against Polish people (claiming that they are inherently incapable of space travels). Why the heck did you even bring Poland into discussion?

I made that clear two months ago, when I mocked

You failed to mock anything, actually.

And you escaped from further discussion because you lacked arguments to disprove my points.

I'm only back here out of sheer boredom, since my business shut down.

That's still better than getting your head chopped off! Ask e.g. grandma Mary!

I quit CFC out of disgust

Hahaha. No man - you just had problems with your account, as all new users at that time.

"Out of disgust that you could not log in" - that's how it was.

 

[Domen]

I'm from a country which embraced tolerance 500 years ago and voting rights for all women since 1918 (by comparison Great Britain since 1928 and your country - Australia - since 1962), while you are from a country which treated its native inhabitants worse than cattle even as late as 1960s - and you dare to tell me who is racist. You wouldn't be able to find a racist on a Ku-Klux-Klan meeting, you Slav-hating WASP.

Being interested in human races is not being racist. You claim that races do not exist because this allows you to be comfortable about the fact that your race has exterminated the native races of Australia!

Recently in another thread you wrote that you would feel comfortable in a world without morality (sic!):

Just imagine, just for a minute, imagine yourself without the chains of your morality. You'd surprise even yourself. It's the ultimate freedom.

You view morality as chains? That's a bit worrisome.

I haven't survived this long by having a heart.

Maybe it's something in the air of Sydney. Or it's the eucalyptus.

It's Australia. The weak gets eaten/poisoned/gored/disemboweled/speared/knifed/etc.

So while you think that all humans are of the same race, you also think that you are not obliged to apply morality to other human beings, in your behaviour (sic!). You treat everyone equally bad regardless of their race - really, this is so much "superior" to treating everyone equally well despite their race. The latter is my point of view - accepting race doesn't mean that I think it matters in my relations with other humans.