Anyone up for a high micro SG?

[Manco Capac]

Okay taking initiative here.

I'm going to roll a start on the water map tomorrow night (about 24 hours from now)

A quick headcount says izzy has 4 votes and saladin has 2.

Quick question because I am new to BUFFY, I'm not seeing the option to place the AIs in teams. Should we use a different mod instead? Should I worldbuilder it in?

You can't make easy team play with Custom Game with BUFFY, but perhaps with editing the worldbuilder save.

I'm ok with my ideas flushed, but is Kossin's ones too? I mean, I'm usually all fine with democracy, but the majority barely replied with 1-2 short phrases.
You may not like my attitude of mine (and those who know me won't be surprised), but hey half of the team, wake up? This is supposed to be a high micro game and half of team is barely capable to comment, oppose, approve, should we do that or this?, etc.

@Kossin

When you meant broken, you meant unusable BUG or literally everything is broken?

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Since Sid leaderhead is also flushed (or is it?), I don't want to see Izzy leaderhead too. I vote Salah-ad-Din.

 

[kossin]

The Phillipines are totally broken - or a mistake in XML. Granaries grant +10 . Not +10%, +10 !

This is what I am referring to, 10 base hammers per city anywhere after Turn 40 is incredibly overpowered. I stopped checking after I stumbled on this so if it's the only really broken thing and possible to fix easily, then I wouldn't see issues with it.

BUG/BULL is not the end of the world. Convenient for certain but for a high micro SG where 5-turns are the norm, it shouldn't be too much work to manually check war modes and such

Also, I support your comment about lack of comments. If that makes any sense...
Any one's person opinion does not make law, team games need good input from all ends - that's also how you learn the most for those interested.

e.g. solving a tactical chess problem and checking the proposed answer doesn't make you learn much in the solving process

EDIT: Salad or Izzy are fine, I supported Izzy for the expansive trait more than anything else... Saladin makes for safer early-mid game though which is good. Great culture pressure too after Writing.

 

[Manco Capac]

This is what I am referring to, 10 base hammers per city anywhere after Turn 40 is incredibly overpowered. I stopped checking after I stumbled on this so if it's the only really broken thing and possible to fix easily, then I wouldn't see issues with it.

Basically, if I check all the leaders before, then correct the unbalances and release the new CIV4Leaderheads.xml, it's fine?
I am sure that was a mistake. Although I have seen stupidities, this couldn't be tolerated, is it? I blame the mod fanbase community to be as lurker as they always were. When nobody comments regarding issues, the main modder can't make fixes.
And come to think, I wouldn't be surprised the said modder just put all the found leaders in one package without looking if some made sense.
It's a shame the mod fanbase sometimes care more about,for example, changing the word "cow" to "cows" or "cattle" than looking at real issues.

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Oh, I also had the idea of Sid leaderhead as the runaway AI since he's like OMNIPOTENT!

Also, I support your comment about lack of comments. If that makes any sense...
Any one's person opinion does not make law, team games need good input from all ends - that's also how you learn the most for those interested.

Look, I have the stic--- I mean gun. Any further comments?








Yes, I do not make the law nor you, but I wish the other party could take 5 mins and just say I'm with this or against clearly or propose ideas. This attitude reminds me of the modding community laziness and "cela me met en pétard! coz of all the bad experiences I had (and still have) with them."

 

[kossin]

For me, sure

How about others though ?

 

[Manco Capac]

For me, sure

How about others though ?

Well, shall they speak first.

EDIT: Wait a min, monsieur? Are you intending to join...? coz otherwise I understand why you're tagging too much along mah lines.

Or I'm reading too much between the lines again.

 

[kossin]

Like I said, I'll lurk unless it's made interesting.

I'll lurk for the moment... good luck seems fun!

Maybe I'll join if you make things interesting

So by all means, everyone can disregard my opinions if you don't want something more twisted hehe.

 

[kossin]

Teams are chosen in the Custom Game screen... It's one of the first dropdown options.

 

[astre]

as i said, if new leaders personality are available, why not. As long as some one check they are fair (i don't a start of understanding how we could do that but tachy seems like to be able to do it).

Else, izy or saladin is fine for me. As i said, i will adapt.

 

[Folket]

Go into the ini file and change the NoTeam flag to 0. It will enable you to setup teams in the custom games screen.

 

[pigswill]

Goodness. Someone wants more detailed comments! Ok, here goes....

I'm not keen on introducing a mod into a high micro SG, Kossin has already identified one slightly broken feature, if there are more imbalances then we may end up with not such a good game and if we're going high micro a la SGOTM then we don't want to abandon it 100 turns in.

Saladin is one of the weaker leaders though Camel Archers are quite fun.

Isabella with conquistadores is going to be more powerful conventional cuirassier rush, maybe we could feature the UB and play Spanish Castle Magic where we can't obselete castles through economics (and therefore no AL, industrialism etc).

 

[pomthom]

I don't see what's the problem with BUG/BULL, it actually has more feats than BUFFY if I'm not mistaken... (I thought BUFFY was really useful for "official" games where you can't reload basically)

OK since Tachy is starting to "râle" I'll try and develop a bit more

I don't feel strongly about any suggested leaders since I love the Spiritual trait (I had voted Justinian or Brennus lol). I also said Sid was interesting, but then again no strong feeling. Is it possible to edit a leader just with the Spiritual trait? A Spiritual Sid or something?

Since I'm still quite a rookie civver, playing against team AIs is already a big game changer for me but I think spicing things up goes well with SGs. So I'm OK with new leaders, random leaders/personalities or things like that, but maybe not too much new tech trees/buildings heavy modding etc... (sorry Tachy )

 

[Manco Capac]

Since I'm still quite a rookie civver, playing against team AIs is already a big game changer for me but I think spicing things up goes well with SGs. So I'm OK with new leaders, random leaders/personalities or things like that, but maybe not too much new tech trees/buildings heavy modding etc... (sorry Tachy )

As I said already, it's basically new leaders with the same very Civ4 format. No new tech tree, heavy modding, it's just new leaderheads.
Never I would ask changing the civ4 environment as its core rule. I have tried enough times in the past to know retrying would be idiot of me.
And yes, we can make anything out of any leader with XML juggling.

Go into the ini file and change the NoTeam flag to 0. It will enable you to setup teams in the custom games screen.

Thx. I didn't know that one (despite ironically I suggested someone in civ discussion about that file )

I'm not keen on introducing a mod into a high micro SG, Kossin has already identified one slightly broken feature, if there are more imbalances then we may end up with not such a good game and if we're going high micro a la SGOTM then we don't want to abandon it 100 turns in.

As I said, I'll check the balances myself and release a new XML for everyone.
I don't it shouldn't work since one thing mod lurkers are good at least is to whine when the whole mod either bugs or crashes.

 

[pomthom]

As I said already, it's basically new leaders with the same very Civ4 format. No new tech tree, heavy modding, it's just new leaderheads.

That's OK with me!

 

[Benginal]

I'm really okay with anything leader/mod wise.

I'll clarify. What I'm hoping to get out of this is a better understanding of the kinds of things I should be thinking about when making micro decisions. Something along the lines of a full game of Kossin's micro training exercises. So I really don't mind if we play as Saladin, Izzy, or Sid. I've played beyond turn 115 for maybe 50 games ever. Consequently, I'm definitely not bored with the base BtS. But I'm definitely not against doing something different, either.

 

[Manco Capac]

Hoping I'm not on my high horse without fyermind final word, but here is the list of things I consider unbalances.

Strong Unbalances

Spoiler :

This one is too overpowered. A 10 strength war elephant that even get a 20% defense in cities.

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This one triggers some fear of abuse of super powerful gunpowder units with two promos late game

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Cavalries are already strong, but now stronger.

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Same as before.

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The Assyrian empire may have been powerful in its time, but 50% city attack for cats are like, u know, OP.

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Ok, maybe not that OP since the Ger exists...

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Stronger infantry by 25% against other gunpowder unit...

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Guerilla I and II - My mistake after all. I thought it was easy access to GIII, but mounted units can't get it...

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Amphibious promo on all units...

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This has to be a joke as Kossin said...

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Horses Archers with 50% strength against melee....

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Stronger rifle with easy access to Guerilla III...uh oh!

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Slavery stronger than evaa!

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Super coasts tiles!

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Abuses against the AI with fast archers...

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Abuses against the AI with fast Axemen

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Super 25% military unit production modifier on a useful building...

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Too strong WElephant

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Wowsers, the banks were a fine building, now, it's superb!

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Strong cavalry is always a danger of unbalance

Spoiler :

 

[Manco Capac]

Part II

Then mild ones

Spoiler :

Not as gigantic, but has an interesting military unit production modifier...

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5 strength spearmen with 25% attacking a city. Still, it can be countered with axemen...

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+5 with 100% gold slider. I'm unsure how abusive it could be as buying techs aren't that strong....

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Amphibious horse archers. Unsure how unbalanced it can be. It would be weird to attack cities form sea with HA and spies....

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Shock and Flanking I Knights. But that's not that unbalanced after all as Knights aren't a good unit in the medieval time frame and knight rush...unsure.

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Shock promo HA.

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Ugh! Mobility Cavalry.

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A normal axeman with 80% against all melee. Definitely stronger than the vulture...

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The Hittites already have the strong and OP battering ram with 50% city attack, but also with the spiritual leader, monument will give +2 more happy faces...hmmm...

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In the hand of a human, it's an interesting unit. Unsure. 50% against melee on top of that 100% attack for axemen, meaning axemen are now crushable like flies and spearmen are less fearsome.

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Free drill to all units. Perhaps not as powerful after all.

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A 20% city attack knight.

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+3 health with cows. A bit much...

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Another variant of the knight with the same 20% city attack.

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Ouch, free mobility useful for all 2 movers. Meaning as far as tanks!

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The cheap monument allowing two promo melee units. Useful until Astro.

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The always useful granary, allowing 2 promos to melee units combined to the rax

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The rather funny nonsense:

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-5% WW. Wow so useful. The Iraqi monument is cheaper and more useful in that useless department in its timeframe, although will be obsolete.

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vs that one

Wow! Ignore terrain cost...on a one tile mover. Oh yeah! Only useful on a nutcracker (leader attached).


Wow, so much, so funni. Can improve tiles. Wow.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Manco Capac]

Any comments on how to make the unbalances more fair? And are some so-called unbalances not necessary of changes since the AI will get those and won't be able to tap its power?

Regarding a possible leader, what about this one since Spiritual is the main theme:

2 spies; 3 aqueducs and a SPI/FIN leader. Nothing special in the UU & UB department and good traits.

Rishi, Rishi, Rishi! The Indus Valley will remake its history for better.

Spoiler :

 

[kossin]

Is it possible to edit a leader just with the Spiritual trait? A Spiritual Sid or something?

Yes. It's pretty simple too as I've done it myself once for fun: I made Huayna as Ind/Phi to see what the fuss was all about.

Any comments on how to make the unbalances more fair? And are some so-called unbalances not necessary of changes since the AI will get those and won't be able to tap its power?

Regarding a possible leader, what about this one since Spiritual is the main theme:

2 spies; 3 aqueducs and a SPI/FIN leader. Nothing special in the UU & UB department and good traits.

Rishi, Rishi, Rishi! The Indus Valley will remake its history for better.

Spoiler :

Spi/Fin is usually nice. But we could just stick to Izzy as well and play nice to avoid Cuirassiers/Citadels.

For imbalances, the more outrageous ones should be toned down significantly. For instance Philippines could be +10% production instead, so whips now give 33H which isn't that broken but a nice little advantage.
WEs shouldn't have more than 9 str (and even then I'm not sure having a BC era unit be as powerful as Muskets makes sense...). If not, increasing the hammer count is a possibility like Justinian's Knights who get an extra 2 str.
Cavalry... brings back memory of Vanilla Cossacks. Nope nope nope.
HAs with bonus vs. melees should lose str like Numidians.
Everything else with similar specials (e.g. Stock Exchange) shouldn't be grossly better than what is presently in the game, imo.

 

[pomthom]

Gothic Cavalry... that's a 6 Numidian (without Flanking). Very very strong.

Thanks for the rundown Tachy!

It's true that's a lot of unbalance...


PS: BTW, your last image is broken in post #76

PSS: amphibious promo for all units?? Too bad Attacko probably doesn't build markets...

 

[Folket]

The Filipino is most likely a bug. Reminds me of a AC faction that was supposed to have one extra happy person per city but had one extra happy per population. Quite imbalanced.

Other are strong but I do not see it as game breaking. You also missed the extra health the hunns have from cows. Many nations here are interesting as opponents. The all amphibious and all mobility should be fun. The hunns might be interesting as well as they take less damage from collateral. Romania could be a good strong opponent.

Nez Perce could be fun to play.