[NFP] Babylon First Look

[Noble Zarkon]

Much more balanced Babylon's ability would look like this: Eurekas provide an extra 40-49% (90-99% of the total) of the Science cost for researching technologies. -40-49% Science per turn. This will avoid untimely jumps to distant eras.

Balanced maybe but definitely a lot more boring!!

 

[Onii-chan]

Balanced maybe but definitely a lot more boring!!

Yeah if that was how it worked it'd just be a really bland civ in general

 

[Leucarum]

In this case I'd take bland... Reserving some judgement, but as someone whose playing a lot more MP lately this is looking like a civ design I wish they hadn't made

 

[Pfeffersack]

Babylon might fit my playstyle, as I constantly have troubles with too fast research and not getting all easy-possible Eurekas in time to reap their full benefit.

And I'm sure it will be a civ working well together with at least two of the game modes: Tech Shuffle (because eureka-popping is a valuable strategy anyway and you might even get crazier tech jumps this way) and Dramatic Ages (advanced units might help to conquer free cities and depending on what determines the units those free cities get, it could even lead to only Babylon being able to deal with them - in the case it is the most advanced civ mattering and Babylon has access to some ahead-of-time-units)

What limits the usefulness of advanced units a bit is probably the lack of policy cards to boost their production.

 

[Jkchart]

I agree it sounds fun to play. I'm just a little disappointed that we finally got a second Mesopotamian civ, and it doesn't seem much more Mesopotamian than the first one. I still want my cultural Assyria, and I feel like Babylon's district ability would have actually suited Assyria really well, whether as the CUA or as the LUA for Tiglath-Pileser III or Sennacherib.

Agreed.

 

[agonistes]

You only need to work a horse tile to get horsemanship. That is getting the most OP unit in the game a hell of a lot earlier.
... What I like is the move 3 sight 3 UU
Why would you ever build a campus with this guy (beyond 1 for the GL), you'll still own 30 by the end of the game. This fact alone is huge.
Kill 3 barbs to find Iron, have a builder ready... bosh, early swords.
.etting muskets - Build a quarry ... bosh Masonry - Build a wall... bosh Engineering - Build an aqueduct ... bosh Military Engineering ... kill 3 barbs for an encampment and with a military engineering armoury you are at muskets.... Quite do-able. Then kill a unit with muskets to get Frigates. Sweet Jesus.

Do they not know how eureka aware we are?

This will be an interesting opponent on marathon games.

 

[8housesofelixir]

What limits the usefulness of advanced units a bit is probably the lack of policy cards to boost their production.

Babylon's culture progression will be definitely falling behind compare to science.

 

[Duomo1334]

Balanced maybe but definitely a lot more boring!!

Yes, Yes. With this approach, people will choose Humankind. You must not lose your head in the pursuit of fun...

 

[Alexadamz]

The only real downside of Babylon is the less time to enjoy each version of the Civ theme...

 

[Zaarin]

Yes, Yes. With this approach, people will choose Humankind. You must not lose your head in the pursuit of fun...

Balance is for casinos and professional sports where millions of dollars are on the line. If the choice is between a civ that is balanced and a civ that is fun to play, they should always pursue the latter. My complaint about Babylon is that, while it seems fun to play, they could slap virtually any name on the civ with only slight alterations.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The only real downside of Babylon is the less time to enjoy each version of the Civ theme...

Hammurabi: *builds Builder, Builder constructs a Horse pasture*

The game: Welcome to the Classical Era!

 

[Duomo1334]

Balance is for casinos and professional sports where millions of dollars are on the line. If the choice is between a civ that is balanced and a civ that is fun to play, they should always pursue the latter. My complaint about Babylon is that, while it seems fun to play, they could slap virtually any name on the civ with only slight alterations.

They should strive to ensure that balance and interesting mechanics are observed at the same time. Now we have not a game but a clowning.

 

[Zaarin]

They should strive to ensure that balance and interesting mechanics are observed at the same time.

Sure, but where something is less balanced but more fun, they should always choose what's more fun. The Eureka gimmick is honestly the only thing keeping Babylon from being as banal as Korea.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Some interesting things from the free building:

If it applies to City Centers, you get a free monument in your capital

You get Markets and Lighthouses in your first CH and Harbor, which will grant you Trade Route capacity right away.

I wonder if the Encampment always grants Barracks or Stables?

3 Workshops = Classical Era Industrialism. Holy Wowzers

You can actually see they get a free Barracks in the Nov update video when Hercules rushes the Encampment with his active ability.

 

[Scaramanga]

Interested how the AI works between Cyrus and Hammurabi if the former has Fall of Babylon and if it works as well as Tomyris’ Killer of Cyrus. Maybe Hammurabi and Cyrus won’t get along on a basic level.

 

[Leucarum]

If the choice is between a civ that is balanced and a civ that is fun to play, they should always pursue the latter.

I don't so much think it's a binary choice... As examples this would still be a fun ability if you needed to hit all prerequisites first, or if it only triggered if you were the first to get an eureka.

It could turn out not to be as problematic as my first impressions, the -50% malus is big, but so far it's a bit of a let down for me.

 

[Zaarin]

As examples this would still be a fun ability if you needed to hit all prerequisites first, or if it only triggered if you were the first to get an eureka.

Disagree on both points. Neither of those limitations really sounds fun at all, especially the latter.

 

[AriochIV]

Balance is for casinos and professional sports where millions of dollars are on the line. If the choice is between a civ that is balanced and a civ that is fun to play, they should always pursue the latter. My complaint about Babylon is that, while it seems fun to play, they could slap virtually any name on the civ with only slight alterations.

Well, the design problem with the very early civilizations like Sumeria or Babylon is that there's not a lot of history to draw from; they were only around for about 1 tier of the tech tree. And they were kind of the only game in town as far as "civilization" goes in their own eras, so they were essentially best at nearly everything, compared to their contemporaries. So in game turns, you kind of have to make stuff up.

As for Babylon's traits, I'll reserve judgment until I play it, but it seems to hinge on Eureka micromanagement which is something I don't especially like doing. What Firaxis calls "vigilance" and "keen awareness of the tech tree" I call "unwelcome Eureka micromanagement."

 

[Revanchist]

I covered this in my youtube video, but the water mill is just disappointing. What makes it a Babylonian water mill? How does it have anything to do with the rest of the abilities?

 

[Zaarin]

Well, the design problem with the very early civilizations like Sumeria or Babylon is that there's not a lot of history to draw from; they were only around for about 1 tier of the tech tree. And they were kind of the only game in town as far as "civilization" goes in their own eras, so they were essentially best at nearly everything, compared to their contemporaries. So in game turns, you kind of have to make stuff up.

As someone whose particular interest is in that period of history (I even considered majoring in Assyriology or Near Eastern studies and occasionally regret not doing so), I have to disagree with all of your points here except the one about the tech tree--which is a problem with the tech tree. Both the Sumerians and Babylonians were excellent record keepers, and archaeology in the region has been extensive. We know a great deal about both Sumer and Babylon. They also weren't the only game in town: they were surrounded by other civilizations like Egypt, the Hittites, the Aramaic kingdoms, the Canaanites/Phoenicians, the Mitanni, the Hurrians, the Urartians, the Elamites, the Medes, the Persians, etc. Mesopotamia may have traded as far afield as Ethiopia and India. Popular awareness of these cultures may be very limited, but available information is not.