Balance: Frigates

[Smote]

Hi everyone. I'd like to introduce a major imbalance during the Rennaissance era: Frigates. These units particularly annoy me because there is no land-based defense to them until the industrial era (artillery). This requires that every civ on the coast must mass frigates/privateers during the Rennaissance, and whoever gets the most probably wins the game.

Lets examine frigates power/defense compared to land-based units.

Frigate -
Power: 25
Ranged Power: 28
Range: 2
Movement: 5
Cost: 185 Hammers, 1 Iron

Possible Land-Based Defenses:
Crossbowman -
Power: 13
Ranged Power: 18
Range: 2
Movement: 2
Cost: 120 Hammers

Cannon -
Power: 14 (No Defensive Bonuses, Must Set-Up to attack)
Ranged Power: 20 (+200% Bonus vs Cities)
Range: 2
Movement: 2
Cost: 185 Hammers

Its obvious how far out-classed the land-units are. (Power 25 vs 13 and 14 respectively, Ranged 28 vs 18 and 20, Move 5 vs Move 2). In a relatively straight coastline, the numbers available to shoot will be relatively even. The frigates will absolutely wreck either cannons or crossbowmen, even if they have defensive bonuses from hills (25%).

It gets worse. Looking at available promotions, Frigates have access to the Bombardment 1,2,3 promotion (+33% vs Land Units). Lets look at a Doubly promoted frigate vs a Doubly promoted Cannon/Crossbowman (Usual in this situation would be Accuracy 1/2 for +15% Ranged Combat Strength vs targets in open terrain.)

Frigate:
Power 25 +66% = 41.5
Ranged Power 28 +66% = 46.48

Cannon:
Power 14 +0% = 14
Ranged Power 20 +30% = 26

Crossbowman:
Power 13 +0% = 13
Ranged Power 18 +30% = 23.4

So at equal cost, cannon vs frigate, we have a 41.5/46.48 vs a 14/26. This is completely one-sided. Likewise, for the crossbowman which is 66% of the cost, we have a 41.5/46.48 vs 13/23.4. Even with substantial defensive bonuses, it will not get close to the frigates power.

As you can see, the only way to stop frigates is with.. frigates. Nobody really wants to play a game where everybody just masses the same units (ie. Horseman, Longsword nerfs previously). One option would be to nerf frigates, but I don't like this option. They do deserve to be very powerful. This is historically accurate and has flavor.

However, if we look at history, cannons in forts do quite well vs frigates. Thus I suggest this change (or perhaps with slightly different numbers):
1. Give cannons + 100% ranged combat strength vs boats.
2. Give units in forts/citadels +100% defense vs naval ranged attacks, including cannons (allow defensive bonus from forts for cannons).

This would make a doubly upgraded cannon in a fort vs a double upgraded frigate be as follows:

Cannon:
Power 14 +100% = 28
Ranged Power 20 +130% = 46

Frigate:
Power 25 +66% = 41.5
Ranged Power 28 +66% = 46.48

You can see that the fight still favors the frigate. But at least the cannon has a chance now.

 

[zukenft]

frigates are powerful, but why fight them when you can pull back out of range, or even better, counterattack with your strength 60 cities?

 

[Plumfairy]

Your analysis misses a very important fact about frigates: they can only heal in friendly waters.

Although the raw combat numbers usually favor frigates, the land-based units (and cities) can successfully defend from frigates by whittling the frigates' health down & forcing them to leave. (Of course, killing them outright via focused fire is even better if you're able to.)

Your analysis misses another (less important) factor that helps the land-based units: they can receive defensive bonuses from the terrain, whereas the ships can't.

 

[Suliz]

I am not convinced that it qualifies as a major imbalance.

1. Maybe I am just unlucky, but for me, a good percentage of the time Iron is relatively scarce, certainly they can't be spammed the way Xbow's can.

2. Because there is only one previous unit for the frigate, and that coming just in the previous age, it is far more unusual to have experienced frigates, compared to members of the archer family.

3. Other than island type maps, the frigate being limited to 2 hexes (barring an upgrade) means it is a non issue for many fights.

4. for taking cities, the frigates also have to deal with the cities defences and the fact that the cannon/XBowman garrisoned there can't be harmed until the city falls.

In archipelago type maps, sea power is pretty important, as pretty clearly it should be, but for other map types, frigates are nice, but they hardly dominate the game.

 

[FrostK]

You are absolutely right. Frigates are totally imbalanced unit. In fact you can have frigates around turn 120 [if u use Oxford for Navigation an build galleases earlier]. And the earliest countr-unit for frigates is artillery or bombers, so u have like 70 turns when frigate is super-power.

 

[Smote]

Until the city power reaches around 50 (60?) there is no land-based solution to an attack force of 8 frigates and a privateer. This seems silly.

 

[Matthew.]

Uhh... how about building your own frigates?

 

[redwings1340]

Frigates are pretty expensive, cost iron, can't heal in non friendly territory, and, most importantly, can't go on land. If you're a costal civ, you need a navy and this is expected, so I don't have a problem with Frigates being powerful. If you aren't a costal civ, build up defenses in your costal city, garisson a cannon in there, build a smallish navy with a privateer, and then laugh as they try and take that one city. Meanwhile, you can use your land army to crush everything else on your continent. In fact, you can use your land army to take over the other civ on your continent that's only been building frigates, and therefore can't defend their costal cities very well from one direction.

 

[DarthSheldonPhD]

Until the city power reaches around 50 (60?) there is no land-based solution to an attack force of 8 frigates and a privateer. This seems silly.

Kind of funny... this is a tactic that I often use so I usually think of it more as a strong strategic move as opposed to something difficult to defend against. But as such, I know that there is a land-based solution: take out the privateer. A fleet of 8 frigates is the same as a half-dozen cannons or two dozen Xbows -> all three groups will take a city from full power to 0HP in a single turn, but no matter how many turns they have to follow, they can't do anything against the 0HP city.

I'll digress that due to the privateer's (or trireme's) number of MP's, it often isn't a possibility to take it out. But when you do, man, that fleet becomes a 'whole lotta nothing'

 

[Walter R]

Until the city power reaches around 50 (60?) there is no land-based solution to an attack force of 8 frigates and a privateer. This seems silly.

True but how often can you get more than 3 frigates in play in an attack on a non small island city? Usually not until they have range promotion, and then you start getting some bizarre line-of-sight preclusion as like as not. And as pointed out, they can't heal outside of friendly waters. At face value they may seem OP but I suggest it's situational.

And if you think frigates are OP, try the English UU!

 

[ilik]

You're being like the AI at lower difficulties. Use tactics. Try a hit-and-run kinda thing using cannons, trade fire, then run back and heal. They can't heal outside of friendly territory.

And build some frigates around yourself for defense. And if you're so frustrated, play Korea and use Turtle Ships: those things can crush Frigates, they can even beat a Ship of the Line!

 

[householder]

And if you're so frustrated, play Korea and use Turtle Ships: those things can crush Frigates, they can even beat a Ship of the Line!

Or if you play Poland very often, I am working on a mod which turns Winged Hussars into air units. (They have wings, after all.)

They will work sort of like Great War Bombers, but with a range of 5 and the 1UPT rule would apply. They would not have a penalty for attacking ships. I am not sure if I can get them based in forts and citadels, in addition to cities.

Another limitation is that I don't have an animation for a flying horse unit. Has anyone done a Pegasus mod? Or maybe one of the brony mods would have something suitable?

Well, okay, i admit it. I am kidding about all of the above.

Actually, I think coastal cities have a big advantage for trade. The need to build a navy to defend these cities and trade routes is part of the balance in the game.

 

[Tabarnak]

Not new Smote, it's the same back to vanilla. At least we can build privateers if there is no iron but much slower to (hard)build. Iron availability becomes a stressing time at least for mp games where you know that the strongest player will automatically go for frigates on water maps.

I'm opting for another suggestion :

Hard build frigates(and unable to upgrade from another unit) and use iron for privateers(upgradable). Litterally the opposite in fact. That way, it let the defender a certain time to rush units to prevent ''doomed'' attacks. These attacks will also likely happen later since that the attacker needs some preparation.

Civ mechanics favourise techers and techers has often a lot of population so he also have more gold and production. This is a particularity to this serie. Everything is linear and towards population. In other words, the first to frigates will likely have more ressources to build even more frigates...

What is bad is that an opponent who really wants iron and can't have some is just...doomed. There is nothing he can do unless he's playing noobs or AIs.

I played a lot of games on water maps and it's what i'm thinking to solve this problem from a long time now. Even a walled army of Xbows cannot always prevent these attacks. Another problem is the attacker opportunity to ''clear'' 2 or 3 units before the defender could do anything. But here it might be a scouting problem. But a water frontier can be very large and sometimes you can't see turns in advance what is coming in.

Frigates are so powerful that most games can be cleared in under 30 turns when they become available, even at deity.

 

[Smote]

I know that frigates aren't new, and that countering frigates with frigates is effective, I just think there should be an alternative. Land-based solutions should exist before the industrial era.

I don't like being required to spend the entire rennaissance pumping out boats to hopefully get more boats than my opponents, because the only counter to boats is more boats.

 

[Smote]

Tabarnak: A kinda funny solution in the rare instances where you get a harbor of sorts in front of your city is put a citadel on that land. Citadels hurt frigates

 

[Matthew.]

That isn't particularly true. A frigate in a city cannot be damaged, while the opponents frigates will get damaged (both by frigate and city), and they cannot heal until they retreat back to friendly waters. You should be able to get by with less frigates than your opponent.

And I normally promote gameplay over realism, but just to make a point... it is more realistic that way. The counter to a navy, before aircraft was invented, was a stronger navy.

 

[isau]

The disadvantage of Frigates is they have mobility limited by low sea water. Unlike a normal land unit they can't "disembark" onto land to get from one side of a continent to another. If they don't have a straight shot to the city you want they are not very useful.

Situationally, they are great, but hardly overpowered IMO. If you are in a situation where your sea cities are vulnerable to boats because of your location it behooves you to take steps to defend them. Otherwise, you need to adjust strategies and move inland.

If you're having a problem with Frigates winning the game part of the problem is the map script. Except for Polynesia a Frigate can't even get to most targets.

 

[Loucypher]

The disadvantage of Frigates is they have mobility limited by low sea water. Unlike a normal land unit they can't "disembark" onto land to get from one side of a continent to another. If they don't have a straight shot to the city you want they are not very useful.

Situationally, they are great, but hardly overpowered IMO. If you are in a situation where your sea cities are vulnerable to boats because of your location it behooves you to take steps to defend them. Otherwise, you need to adjust strategies and move inland.

If you're having a problem with Frigates winning the game part of the problem is the map script. Except for Polynesia a Frigate can't even get to most targets.

You seem to be talking about Galleass. Frigates can most definitely enter the ocean...

 

[isau]

You seem to be talking about Galleass. Frigates can most definitely enter the ocean...

Oops. Yep. I stand corrected. Still don't see them as a balance issue though.

 

[tommynt]

If they werent that strong they d be kind of totaly useless to build as their use is kind of limited and they got like no upgrade path.

Same goes for the tech path - not much useful is behind Navigation - u loose many important turn to techs like for PS or Arties

Also they make people think about building water located city or not.

If u fear frigate attack there are 3 options:
- Dont build coastal citiys and let other players fight each other.
- Spam Coastal cities and build ships yourself
- Place your few coastal cities clever - not like extended at some land end cape

Also with roads and maybe 2 coastal forts and clever used units combined with maybe 2 ships which do hin n run u can wear Frigates down (as said if CIty itself isnt too vurnable)