Brazil Deity Jungle Start (Strategy and Debate)

EEE_BOY

Deity
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
3,148
Location
NZ
Brazil Deity Jungle Start (Strategy and Debate)

Everyone hates jungle start, low :c5production: and long worker improvement time. Only Brazil enjoys jungle start, as this civ is designed to win :tourism: Victory and jungle is the essential ingredient to the victory. There is no specific wonder to get in this strategy (no CI of course), but there is a small risky element to get the Sacred Path pantheon. This guide is only work-in-progress, so debate is always welcome, and there are several deity starting saves attached to this guide for you to try and compare. Finish turn can vary depending on surrounding civs, so do not expect super fast :tourism: win here like the sacred site.

For start, let's define jungle start. It is assumed that only 1-2 hills are availale for capital to work with, rest of tiles are mostly jungles that are going to be preserved for brazilian woodcamp, unless there is a luxury. The low :c5production: and low :c5food: of capital makes it very hard to construct wonders or assign specialists.

Expansion phase:

Capital: spend 1-2 turns moving onto a hill tile, so base hammer of city tile is 2. Try not to settle on a jungle hill tile unless there is no other choice. Best tile is a hill tile with mining lux. River or coastal, doesn't matter.

Capial build order: scout (5 turns) - monument (4-5 turns half completed) - shine (work a hill to get hammers, 7 turns) -monument (work all food again) - scout - granary - archer - 2 settlers - 2 caravans -archer - library - NC

Social policy: Liberty - Republic - Collective Rule - Piety - Organized Religion - Citizenship - Meritocracy -

1st city: archer (half-completed) - shine (start when piety is opened) -archer (finish) - library - temple -granary

2nd-3rd city: shine - library - temple - granary

Tech path: Pottery - archery - lux tech (including masonry or Bronze Working if marsh or lux on jungle) - sailing - Construction (but leave it 1 turn unfinished) - writing - NC

Depending on deity AI's religion flavour, you may be the 2nd to found a pantheon, or the 5th (at 30 :c5faith:). Although it may seem as the AI is insanely quick to found religion, but so long as you can get sacred path on the 5th to found a pantheon, you are most likely guaranted a late religion, because quickly the 1st AI will enhance the religion and the door is closed to God. If you start shine immediately, and put all hammers to accelerate it, it is possible to get this pantheon. If sacred path is gone, well, not so good, you can completely forget religion, and do not go piety, and this is discussed in the final part. In a standard pangea map or terra map, the starting bias will usually avoid this akward situation.

Early cash: can be spent on buying a hill first, if there is a hill buy a scout when you have 140. Hill is to accelerate shine production, and the scout can improve scouting.

Early scouting: the warrior should be brought back once you have two scouts around, when you had the opportunity, steal AI's worker if you think it is safe to bring it back, best AI to steal is the one that is seperated by another civ, so you are not in real danger of retaliation. Also do not hesitate to steal a single CS's workers if it is unprotected. steal 2-3 workers is usually enough in 4 cities to improve luxury and then build roads then build brazilian woodcamp, hence there is no hammer devoted to workers.

Land grabbing: AI is usually very quick to grab land towards you, so early DoW can make them hesitate to settle towards you. Also the warrior should be fortified near the AI neighbour, along with your archer, to intimidate AI from settling towards you.

Satelite city placement: usually it depends on jungle spread, so can't guarantee you can get all 4 cities close together. Best to settle on top of lux to save worker time. Settling on hill is not necessary and sometimes NOT recommended, as the hill will block you archers line of sight, so your archers can't fire enemy units. Jungles will provide best defence for you in this case. If you suspect AI aggression, save cash to buy a wall on front line city when war breaks out.

Culture output: once Sacred path is obtained, monument is usally delayed for very long time, not even needed. Once AI's religion spread to your cities, you may want to get these monuments up but can still do fine without them. Your capital's founding religion pressure can ensure some :c5culture: progress towards social policy, so satelite cities should work on jungles as much as possible before AI religion takes over.

Religion: founder belief can increase :c5gold: per turn (Tithe), follower beliefs can add shine :c5happy: (Asceticism) , temple :c5happy: (Religious Centre) or add shine /temple :c5food:(Feed the world). The most important is the enhanced belief, take (Messiah) cheaper great propht to convert you cities back to your religion. You may need 2nd or 3rd round to defend you religion, so do not convert CS, concentrate on your own cities. Grand temple usually helps but the hammer may be tight to build other buildings in capital.

Happiness management: it needs some micro if you want to avoid your first carnival prematurely, basically if none of your cities grow insanely, you can maintain 3-5 :c5happy: and sell your lux for gold per turn. only swap a copy of lux if you need to avoid unhappiness. However, it is not necessarily to avoid it perfectly, sometimes the merchant :c5citystate: will ruin your day and give you too much :c5happy: for a while. It is only to give your an idea if your lux selling is optimal to max your :c5gold: per turn, but you should be able avoid the second natural carnival.

Take-off phase:

Tech path variations: after NC, the tech path can vary depending on AI friendliness.
1. If you get 1-2 AI friends and especially your neighbours are not aggressive, and you can bribe your neighbours to war with other AIs and your :c5gold: per turn is not horrible after building temples and units: go to Education and accumulate :c5gold: to buy universities near turn 120.
2. If your neighbour is still unforgivable when he wars with other AI and still covert your land and still thinks you are a warmonger after so many years, and your :c5gold:per turn is horrible because you do not have many luxuries to sell: go to machinery and build brazilian woodcamp to improve your :c5gold:per turn. This will slow you down by almost 20-30 turns, but it is necessary for survival. Even you went education early, and your :c5gold: per turn is horrible, your low :c5production: cities can't get univerisites quickly, so machinery is the way to go first.

Tech path After Education/Machinary: --> Acoustics --> Metal Casting --> Physics---> Biology.

Aim to steal Calvary, Banking, Economics, Industrialization and Electricity, so your tech path should avoid these techs but time to make them available for stealing. For example, once get banking, should research Printing Press and Architecture; once get economics, should research scientific theory. The aim is to use Oxford to get Refridgeration asap.

Satelite city build: aqueduct --> happiness --> market --> workshop --> public school --> bank--> windmill/factory, basically nothing important here, if a city has too low :c5production:, public school can be bought. :c5gold: should be saved for hotels.

Once opening Acoustics, you should send your caravans to deliver :c5food: to capital for internal trade routes . You can start building artist guild and writer guild in capital or other :c5food: excessive city. Great Artist should be saved for later Carnivals. Use Great Writer for instant :c5culture: boost, as the 2 :tourism: can be easily compensated by brazilian woodcamp :tourism:.

Social Policies: Do not finish liberty (leave the Representation to later). Dump 1 into Aesthetics opener before renaissance. When going through Rationalism, it is assumed that your cities have low food because most of them are grabbing jungles. Hence Secularism is not useful if assigning specialists will slow down your growth. Hence going towards right-hand side, Humanism --> Free thought (17% :c5science:to Uni).

Ideology: Freedom till the extended golden age (Universal Suffrage).

Relax phase:

Social Policy: Once all hotels are purchased or built: burn your Great Atists, take the Flourisng Arts, take Artistic Genius if you think another Great Artist is unlikely, and finally take Representation in liberty.

If you haven't built music guild or work on music specialists, it's time to do now.

tech path: flight --> Radio. If airport bonus can't finish the game, then the broadcast tower bonus are needed, as well as level 3 freedom policy.

Losing sacred path: you can either restart or continue the game without going piety, so the one or two policies will go to aethetics instead. Also Radio can be opened before Flight, and the liberty finisher can take a GE to get Effiel Tower. Basically if no sacred path, you saved hammers on shines and temples early on, but still need to invest in monument and other culture buildings. Sacred path adds 50% culture yield from brazilian woodcamp, so it is worth the effort to defend your religion. Broadcast tower only gives 34% and require much more :c5production: and social policies.
 

Attachments

  • Brazil 1.Civ5Save
    609.8 KB · Views: 122
  • Brazil 2.Civ5Save
    614.5 KB · Views: 101
  • Brazil 3.Civ5Save
    617.4 KB · Views: 83
  • Brazil 4.Civ5Save
    508 KB · Views: 66
  • Brazil 5.Civ5Save
    541.9 KB · Views: 91
Problem #1 food... unless you have a sun-god spawn (bananas and oranges) working 2 food 1 culture tiles to compensate for the culture from tradition is VERY, VERY bad.
Hmmm and going liberty for fast expand, you think you can improve those jungle luxes in a timely manner? Your build order mentions nothing about pyras so I assume you have some way of stealing a handful (4-5 at least) from the AI? (I mean I can steal 2, but stealing 4 or 5 is pretty tough)

With this opening though your cap is going to be stuck for food for a long, long time until acoustics...

Interestingly enough you plan to end the game around airports... in which case this maybe a t200 win or so (is that doable? I know with Brazil's double tourism bonus it's at least theoretically possible but...) TBH I feel Brazil's UI is not meant to be spammed early on until your cities get 20+ big (as that comes at the cost of precious food and production), and even without the UI the carnival bonus itself is strong enough to CV almost any map, given that you survive early game.

Also do you plan to build any wonders? At least mention when to build hermitage...
 
I made an assumption that only 2 hills workable around capital, so pyramids is possible but not necessary. Early on there is not much for workers to do except improving lux or mine a few tiles. I found 3 workers (1 from AI, 2 from a single CS) can do just fine. Another worker will join when woodcamp is available from citizenship.

After sacred path, cities can work on jungle tiles to grow, usually there are bananas so capital can grow to 8-10 pop before food caravans can send food.

I don't know how to expand in jungle start without liberty, Tradition certainly is not working as each settler may cost you 10 turns, so expect 30 turns without growing.

Again, no wonder or national wonders except NC or Ironwork (which I forgot to mention but should be after workshops).

No Hermitage planned as culture buildings are delayed for very long time. Maybe after factories and there is a need to get broadcast towers.
 
It took me ages to get the Vote for Pedro achievement because of the jungle starts.

First half wonders are generally a no-go so the UA and camp is really there to compensate for the lack of wonder building in jungle and the lack of late game culture which that represents.

If you try for a cultural win, obviously you are doing it on the strength of your ability to produce great works.
 
I guess best strategy for a dschungel start is to move cap out of it ...

like 4 moves are definatly worth it ... to have at least half normal resources half green busches.

Later cities are kind of OK to have there as long as u get enough workers to get Brasizlwoodcamps later and are able to generate money SOMEHOW
 
Good luck with this ... you'll need it! I have a similar quest with Kamehameha and the damned moai -- unfortunately I don't think that one is practical on deity. The culture bump you can get is nice, but it's only comparable to getting 2 or 3 CS to be friends with you, and the (late) tourism bump is nice, but still it's not nearly enough to get you a Tourism victory on Deity without taking over at least one other civ.

I foresee a similar problem here for Brazil -- while you may get more $$ from the camps, the drawback is you're surrounded by freakin' jungle.

I also do not have the same experience you do with regard to founding a religion -- without a faith bump from a friendly CS or a faith-generating pantheon (or finding a couple of prophets in ruins) my quest for a religion is foiled 90% of the time.

Still ... a worthy quest :).
 
Brazil's first three cities are coastal IRL. Only number 4 starts to approach the jungle...
 
Good luck with this ... you'll need it! I have a similar quest with Kamehameha and the damned moai -- unfortunately I don't think that one is practical on deity. The culture bump you can get is nice, but it's only comparable to getting 2 or 3 CS to be friends with you, and the (late) tourism bump is nice, but still it's not nearly enough to get you a Tourism victory on Deity without taking over at least one other civ.

I foresee a similar problem here for Brazil -- while you may get more $$ from the camps, the drawback is you're surrounded by freakin' jungle.

I also do not have the same experience you do with regard to founding a religion -- without a faith bump from a friendly CS or a faith-generating pantheon (or finding a couple of prophets in ruins) my quest for a religion is foiled 90% of the time.

Still ... a worthy quest :).

The thing with Moai is that they can be built on anything, even strategic resources, so it is possible to leave the tiles as farms until late game, where you have civil society and +11 food from each cargo ship, THEN you convert anything coastal to Moai right before internet and GM stream.
on the other hand, if you clear away jungle for farms, there's no going back.

On 2nd thought, I think with the right setup this strat might work... sure you have no production working those camps, but the golden ages brought about by GA gives you +3gold/camp, which can be amplified with buildings...

If you go into mercantilism... and get Big Ben and the SP for cheaper prices buying stuff... this might work. The problem is surviving early game and coming out with a religion that does not get taken over... means usually you're going to have to finish piety as your first tree unless somehow with your jungle start you manage Hagia Sophia.
 
I just gave it a shot on the first map. WOW that is not a good map ... plopped right in the middle of grim-ville, with a ton of folks close by. I wouldn't want to play that map with the Shoshone, switching all the jungle out for forest!

The good news is that it's easy to steal workers, nabbed 3 or 4. The bad news is that there aren't a pile of luxuries close by (not enough to support 4 cities) and early war seems inevitable.

I got to turn 80, projected 3-city NC by turn 90, was just finishing off researching Guilds and then off to CS, but Kamehameha DOW'd because I advanced settled a bit on him. Probably a mistake on my part but there are just so few good spots on that map to settle, everyone is cramped very early.

My guess is that the way to victory on that map, IF there is one, is CB rush and then storm Marrakech. While I need practice with early wars like that, that isn't really the point of the exercise, and early war with Jungle-Boy isn't exactly optimal.

Going to try map #2 ...

Oh: 1 religion left available by turn 54. So, um, yeah. I got Sacred Path, but no way I would hold it.
 
The thing with Moai is that they can be built on anything, even strategic resources, so it is possible to leave the tiles as farms until late game, where you have civil society and +11 food from each cargo ship, THEN you convert anything coastal to Moai right before internet and GM stream.
on the other hand, if you clear away jungle for farms, there's no going back.

I suppose that might be better but the idea of waiting until turn 220+ before I rock out the major feature of the damned Civ just seems really tedious. I also think it's quite possible that the extra 20+ culture per city are worth the lost 4-5 food, if you have cargo ships going. But it's just not enough.

I am also annoyed that it's so damned hard to find a good island to settle on these maps. You'd think that with early embark power, you'd be able to swoop in and grab a great settle site or two early on. Unfortunately, virtually every time I play the closest islands are dominated by CS's, or AIs, or tundra, or deserts. It takes forever to find a nice spot, and it's often a looong way away :(. I think the one Poly deity victory I have, I was able to build 3 cities on my (small) island/archipelago, and there was a small island within 20 spaces that served as my 4 city. That's rare, though.

Probably should start a new thread for Poly players with broken hearts ...
 
Thing about Moai is that there are rarely locations where you can get more than 2 culture per tile out of them. Every triangular jut of land has a god damned sheep on it! :mad:
 
Thing about Moai is that there are rarely locations where you can get more than 2 culture per tile out of them. Every triangular jut of land has a god damned sheep on it! :mad:

Well, if you have a straight line of coast you get three per Moai, which isn't bad, but yeah the really cool spots where you can get four or five are pretty rare, and are often messed up by a resource you want to mine.
 
Save #2 Report:

Diplo win on turn 325; should have been turn 305, but I got double-DOW'd three turns before the election, and they booted out my diplomats, the bastards!

I went with a 4-city Tradition-->Liberty for settlers--> Finish Tradition setup, three of the cities pre-NC (turn 92?). The key early strategeries were:

1) Paying London to DoW on Genghis as she was walking up to my border (turn 70'ish)
2) Supporting (verbally) Genghis's war on Babylon, and refusing to agree to peace with Babs during their 50-or-so turn war.

That plus a little advance settling on Genghis with my 4th city allowed me to control my home territory -- I made sure I had 5 or 6 or 7 archers, of course, to dissuade tomfoolery. Good defensive setup overall -- I can post the final location of settlements if anyone is interested. My cap was on the shore on the hill to the right of the mountain that's a little SW of the starting spot.

Genghis was the BEST NEIGHBOR EVER. I built a shrine but didn't get Sacred Path -- but he got it, and I caught his religion! What a guy. We were best Buddhist buds the whole game, and he was the only guy to pick Freedom as his Ideology (very very late, his tech sucked). To pay him back, after China and England wiped him out (and then DOW'd me), I took back one of his towns and returned it to him. *sniff*

Key mid-game strategy:
BUILD THOSE CAMPS! SP choice was one step into Commerce and then Rationalism (turn 132'ish)

The camps were great. SO much money ... soooo much! I bribed England with 10gpt to be friends most of the game -- between that and Genghis being occupied (and us sharing a religion) I had no war issues until very very late in the game.

Even with bouncing down to Machinery, I hit ST at turn 170'ish, and Plastics on turn 212. My bpt was 550 on turn 200, which is not my best but is way above average for me -- and I'll take it on a jungle start, any day, hell, I think at that point only my cap was above size 16.

Late-Game:
I was the first to pick an ideology (turn 190'ish?) and even though the AIs love Order, I thought I'd go with Freedom, as I never picked up the Vote For Pedro achievement and I knew the Tourism win wasn't going to happen. The tourism generated was enough to keep me from losing too much happiness (maybe peak trough of a -20 hit, usually more like -8), which is pretty good for only having two or three archaelogists digging anything up. I did faith-buy and then bulb a GE for Eiffel.

Peak Tourism during Carnival was around 380 -- and I had a 40+-turn Carnival at some point. Forget about winning International Games, though, just not enough production for it. But I have to give a thumbs-up to the camps. Not quite as much tourism from them as moias, but they're so much better in every other way.

Late-Late-Game
I Oxford'd Globalization and then bulbed Internet (just on principal, I mean, just because you won't win a Cultural victory doesn't mean you shouldn't annoy your neighbors and try to make the jerks who took Order/Autocracy unhappy), and was making 300gold/turn and was sending those cargo ships out to the CS to get that +4/turn influence, but even with all that, it takes awhile to get enough allies. I am sure I could have done it a little faster but there's a lot of CS out there. I had the tech lead by turn 190'ish though, so there was really no danger of losing at that point. If I went for a SV I am sure I could have done it by turn 270'ish, just save up the mad money I was making and buy up the parts.

To sum up: I love the Freedom ideology, and with any other Civ, if I took it I would have gotten crushed happiness-wise. With Brazil, I could hold my own against Order, and the chumps (China and England) who took Autocracy were suffering big time by end of game. England actually had a Revolution to Freedom.

To sum up #2: Brazil makes jungle starts winnable. It helps you not get your ass kicked in the Tourism happiness-wars. But (no surprise) it is not going to win you a CV on Deity unless you knock out the other Civs that are in the lead, that are almost certainly generating just as much or more Tourism/Culture.

-------------
BTW, this map is really the idea Deity setup -- a third of the map is uninhabited at the beginning so the AIs are squished together, meaning it's hard for any one of them to run away with it. AND you've got no problems to the south or the west, unlike that crazy first map.
 
Thing about Moai is that there are rarely locations where you can get more than 2 culture per tile out of them. Every triangular jut of land has a god damned sheep on it! :mad:

Moai can be built on anything, even sheep.... :lol: or coal, aluminum, uranium, whatever.
 
Tried save #3 (gems)
First run: piety as opening tree, religious tolerance abuse for double sacred path...
Spoiler :

Here my capitol is not doing well production-wise, but as you can see, the jungle tiles get prioritized over even the scientist slots, but then again 2 science is 2 science regardless if it comes from a slot or a jungle... satellites take 20+ turns to build aqueducts and all in all, having a non-faith generating pantheon means you will reach Renaissance by the time you bet to 200 faith and hence cannot buy pagodas anyway since they cost 300... having happiness problems here because of no tradition.
However, the UI tiles give 4 culture and university allows me to get tons of science. Still, pretty hopeless as Shaka has eaten up everyone else.

2nd try, tradition opening to tears of the gods (suitable pantheon) play normally
Spoiler :

I feel this is much better (although tbh this is my 2nd run so I already know the map but still...)
Here, MUCH better growth in satellites, with the capitol doing much better, a semi-dominant religion with 20 gpt (at least for the time being), circus maximus and ironworks about to be up, Oracle, Borobodur AND Sistine, and an academy.

My verdict: Just play tradition normally and you should be fine... no need for sacred path (a faith based pantheon is better... think of getting one or two more bought GM for late game and that should cancel out the bonus 1 culture from UI pretty easily) or weird tricks, the UI is meant to be midgame to late game.

Update:
Won JUST below t300; played it safe and got hubble before internet; didn't matter that Atilla was topping out 500-600 cpt from conquering; Brazil's UA is simply amazing PLUS the fact that it works on GM takes the cake. Normally this would not be a CV-winnable game.
Problem with Sacred Path is that you are FORCED to work a jungle tile early game, with the exception of bananas, you almost always want to improve resources in jungle (for trade), but then that removes the culture bonus; heck, I did not get BWCs until maybe atomic era or so; was busy working farms, since the land had very few grassland river tiles (all plains), I even removed the jungle from bananas just for more food from plantations.
Culture from jungle is overrated early game; with more food you can grow to work your culture slots instead.
Spoiler :
 
Tried save #3 (gems)
Update:
Won JUST below t300; played it safe and got hubble before internet; didn't matter that Atilla was topping out 500-600 cpt from conquering; Brazil's UA is simply amazing PLUS the fact that it works on GM takes the cake. Normally this would not be a CV-winnable game.
Problem with Sacred Path is that you are FORCED to work a jungle tile early game, with the exception of bananas, you almost always want to improve resources in jungle (for trade), but then that removes the culture bonus; heck, I did not get BWCs until maybe atomic era or so; was busy working farms, since the land had very few grassland river tiles (all plains), I even removed the jungle from bananas just for more food from plantations.
Culture from jungle is overrated early game; with more food you can grow to work your culture slots instead.
Spoiler :

kb -- how did you get that much tourism? Were there 10 Great Works in there? In the game #2 replay I had a lot more jungles than you did and didn't get anywhere close to that tourism output. (I also didn't get nearly as tall, not sure how that would be relevant to tourism, though. How did you get so big with lousy jungles?)
 
kb -- how did you get that much tourism? Were there 10 Great Works in there? In the game #2 replay I had a lot more jungles than you did and didn't get anywhere close to that tourism output. (I also didn't get nearly as tall, not sure how that would be relevant to tourism, though. How did you get so big with lousy jungles?)

I didn't have that many works but
Filled Louvre
Filled Oxford
Filled Hermitage
Filled museum in capitol with a theming set of archaeological artifacts.

Had Sistine but Brazil is better off saving artists for carnivals.

Of course the +3 culture from wonders WC proposal helps immensely.

Because gems generate good gold, and also got a lot from tithe, as soon as my satellites had granaries I did not have an outside trade route (after very early game for techs) until I hit my 5th trade route. (2 food routes from satellites to capitol and then 2 cargo ships between the satellites themselves... coastal cities are great at taking care of each other this way which is why if I'm going to get a coastal city, I always get 2); Happiness was an issue, yes, but because Shaka gobbled up Honolulu, denouncing him got me so many friends that I was never short on lux trades or RAs... (Austria made my life difficult by marrying off the mercantile CS though...) once I get deep into my ideology I'm usually fine... having 3 instead of 4 cities helps immensely.

The key is to work those river or even non-river grassland farms and refrain from building the UI.
 
I didn't have that many works but
Filled Louvre
Filled Oxford
Filled Hermitage
Filled museum in capitol with a theming set of archaeological artifacts.

Had Sistine but Brazil is better off saving artists for carnivals.

Of course the +3 culture from wonders WC proposal helps immensely.

The key is to work those river or even non-river grassland farms and refrain from building the UI.

Total science-wise we were in the same place so I'm not sure you have to refrain from building/using the UI (though it's definitely the secret to getting so tall); Tourism-wise you definitely benefited from the tourism doubling more than the tourism from the UI -- 11 great works 'll do that, plus Sistene and the culture in general from your WW.
 
Top Bottom