Brazil Deity Jungle Start (Strategy and Debate)

[kb27787]

Total science-wise we were in the same place so I'm not sure you have to refrain from building/using the UI (though it's definitely the secret to getting so tall); Tourism-wise you definitely benefited from the tourism doubling more than the tourism from the UI -- 11 great works 'll do that, plus Sistene and the culture in general from your WW.

The UI of course is built on a tile that gives +2 science with a university, so of course, if you work the UI tiles you'll get loads of terrain science...
however the problem is working them does not create GS, unlike slots, and slots give more science anyway. Hammers are very important for CV though, as they allow you to build the necessary buildings; so you cannot work all food, hammer, and UI tiles at once until your city reaches 30+ size.
To gain tourism from the UI, the actual tiles have to be worked, which kind of sucks, so by the end game your capitol has to be BIG.

 

[EEE_BOY]

The UI of course is built on a tile that gives +2 science with a university, so of course, if you work the UI tiles you'll get loads of terrain science...
however the problem is working them does not create GS, unlike slots, and slots give more science anyway. Hammers are very important for CV though, as they allow you to build the necessary buildings; so you cannot work all food, hammer, and UI tiles at once until your city reaches 30+ size.
To gain tourism from the UI, the actual tiles have to be worked, which kind of sucks, so by the end game your capitol has to be BIG.

I agree with your general statements about cultural victory, but Brazil is the special case of cultural victory, which is what I want to demonstrate in this thread.

Don't have to build any wonder or unnecessary national wonders, don't have to finish Aesthetics, don't have to be production heavy, ...something outside the box.

If we have 7-8 tiles of jungles for each city (can be more if you war with xbows like in save 3 to kill America), that's about 30+ tiles total, about 100-150 cultures with sacred path, with hotel and airport, that's 200-300 tourism in carnival early in the game.

I will finish save 3 sometime for comparison

 

[crocivfanatic]

Ok i accepted this challenge and managed to finish it-seems key to win was same playing on deity starting in information era but much much harder and with many other things to pay attention.I had completely my own strategy,but i took from this thread sacred path thing-it seems that indeed help culture to grow faster on early game till you are taken over by other player religion.Map is standard size with default number of players and CS(8 players overall),amazon plus.

Here is social policy which i took:
1.Tradition wonder construction
2.Liberty construction and settler
3.Full aesthetic tree
4.Full commerce tree plus +4 free culture building on tradition while i was filling commerce
5.And then finally when i was able to pick ideology to fulfill everything what was needed,i spent leftover score to fill full tradition and patronage tree(then it wasn't even important anymore but had to spend points on something,but close to end i got merchant of Venice so it was nice)

And when it comes to wonders,i managed to build following ones:
1.Temple of Artemis
2.Pyramids
3.Mausoleum of hallicarnus
4.Oracle(with great engineer boost,which i got fast thanks to engineer points from temple or artemis and pyramids)
And after that nothing beside big ben and Neuschwanstein castle which ai never build anyway.
Made only one scout which i build a bit later in game,first worker i bought as i needed to chop forest to build Pyramids on time so had 3 workers and that was enough.

So the key is in two things:
1.Wait to see who will build great firewall,and then take matching ideology(in this case was Netherlands which was left from me)so you can have better influence compared to other civs to it
2.To avoid getting dowed any time in entire game,when you get report how army is coming close to one of your cities,simply bribe someone to dow on attacker or even attacker itself,works every time,not a single dow entire game.First i was doing defensive pacts but realized how there is zero need for that,as bribing always work.Tho it was funny how Polynesia never wanted money for dow but everyone else never had issue with it.
And it is important to pay attention when you generate great musician,as you get larger tourism to spend on golden age period.

I uploaded final screenshot and what i find unusual how mathematic kind a dont match,for example civ with less percentage have bigger overall score,it seems mathematic goes wrong once overall tourism is larger then 1000.
And in save which i uploaded,it is right before picking panteon which i got by getting faith from ancient ruins.
And what i find amazing with brazil civ and what i didn't realized before,how once you cant spend anymore great artist/musician/writer to increase tourism,you can still increase it by simply building new cities with brazilwood,hotel and airport.

 

[Petiscator]

kb27787: What do you mean by "Religious Tolerance abuse for double sacred path"? How is that possible? I'm interested!

Also, I think someone said on the first page that the three first brazilian cities are coastal and that the fourth starts to approach the jungle, I think they meant in real life, so, just a tiny correction: while Rio de Janeiro (1st) and Salvador (3rd) are coastal, São Paulo (2nd) is not. Brasilia (4th, and our current capital) is in a place that looks more like a plains/forest region (we call it Cerrado). Of the 10 first Brazilian cities, only one of them (Manaus) is really located in the jungle. Just out of curiosity, I felt like sharing this info if anyone was interested, sorry if I'm being boring or anything.

This is a nice thread and a very good read. Have you guys worked the Amazon out? I have tried it before, but I have serious problems with early game production when I play that map.

 

[EEE_BOY]

I think religious tolerance is great idea to invest additional one policy in the piety and get the pantheon for the second religion present on the city icon. As AI's religion will put pressure on your own religion and sometimes over takes yours. If you take the religious tolerance social policy, then sacred path pantheon will always work on your cities. If it is confirmed, this is brilliant!

 

[Petiscator]

I don't understand that Religious Tolerance abuse. AFAIK, you can keep the benefits of the pantheon of the second most popular religion in your city, right? So, how can you have the same pantheon twice? I think I'm unaware of something, it has been a while since I don't play civ.

 

[kb27787]

I don't understand that Religious Tolerance abuse. AFAIK, you can keep the benefits of the pantheon of the second most popular religion in your city, right? So, how can you have the same pantheon twice? I think I'm unaware of something, it has been a while since I don't play civ.

It's like this: (see my screenshot... my capitol is getting double bonuses from sacred path but this works on any pantheon)
Cities with a majority religion (OR PANTHEON) receives the pantheon bonus of the 2nd most popular (NON PANTHEON) religion.
I made one of my satellites (Sao Paolo which barely had any jungle ) my holy city, and hence religious tolerance does not work on it, BUT my capitol's people are mainly still pantheon-worshippers. Once my capitol gets at least one follower of the full religion, "Brazilian Pantheon" is still considered the majority "religion" as far as religious tolerance is concerned, but my "Eastern Orthodoxy" (which originates from Brazilian pantheon) is considered the 2nd popular religion.

Hence +1 culture from majority belief and +1 culture from religious tolerance. (being tolerant of your own religion )

So basically if you took piety but failed to form a religion, if you at least have a pantheon, then religious tolerance is not completely wasted once AI cities start exerting pressure on you... however if they use missionaries usually this wipes out the pantheon so no luck.

Once Eastern Orthodoxy becomes the majority religion, the pantheon does not get considered as "second popular religion" however, so the bonus will go away with time (you can prevent this by growing your city two times faster than the religion spreads, but other AIs religion might come in eventually anyway, so this abuse is only for early to midgame. It would be nice if miraculously other religions never reach you and you have BWCs that are twice as effective at generating tourism though)

I don't consider this a cheat, more of an exploit, but for all I know this may have been intended on the dev's part.

 

[Petiscator]

Holy crap, that's GENIOUS!

Seriously, how the heck did you think of it? Awesome! Looks a bit like an exploit, but who knows if this was intended. Now Piety seems much more attractive - my biggest problem about it is the lack of culture, it seems to fill so slowly. Thanks for sharing it, I'll definitely try it on my next game!

I wonder what happens if you have Theodora do that with an extra pantheon for her religion.

 

[kb27787]

Holy crap, that's GENIOUS!

Seriously, how the heck did you think of it? Awesome! Looks a bit like an exploit, but who knows if this was intended. Now Piety seems much more attractive - my biggest problem about it is the lack of culture, it seems to fill so slowly. Thanks for sharing it, I'll definitely try it on my next game!

I wonder what happens if you have Theodora do that with an extra pantheon for her religion.

Had to try it, but turns out only the pantheon that was chosen first before the religion was founded counts... the bonus belief does not count as a pantheon belief in this case, regrettably.

Here, desert folklore (chosen first) faith is doubled in the capitol, but the bonus belief earth mother did not become active in the capitol (only in Adrianople do I get +1 faith from salt/iron, while desert only has 1 faith), for example.

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

couldnt get this to work for me.

pretty much everything was going according to plan, but i lacked the gold to buy both public schools and hotels, so i had a mixture of buying/building.

By the time i got hotels up, working wood camps etc (a large number each city) i had only 170 tourism which simply wasnt enough. Russia won a science victory well before i could get close

 

[crocivfanatic]

couldnt get this to work for me.

pretty much everything was going according to plan, but i lacked the gold to buy both public schools and hotels, so i had a mixture of buying/building.

By the time i got hotels up, working wood camps etc (a large number each city) i had only 170 tourism which simply wasnt enough. Russia won a science victory well before i could get close

I am not sure is it possible to win cultural victory on deity with all victory conditions turned,i won mine by enabling only culture victory on year 2126.Even if you would somehow survive till year 2050,you would still lose by score.

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

oh right, i always turn score off cos it seems like a dumb victory condition, science vics happen before then anyway

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

Hey OP, im unsure what went wrong in my next effort, please enlighten me

i went machinery -> edu -> acoustics -> astronomy and the suggested research line, buying some buildings and getting them at a reasonable pace (wasnt far behind in tech)

4 cities with something like 8/7/6/5 jungles (its rare to get decent locations with 8 jungle tiles each, when you cant space cities too close together)

got to hotels reasonable time (i was near the bottom in tech, but about 5/6 techs behind leader). blew my artists etc and my tourism was like 90 during carnival. Had the recommended social policies etc.

90 seemed way not high enough to end the game, but i havent completed it yet. Was working all available jungles with brazilwoods

Any suggestions?

 

[EEE_BOY]

Any suggestions?

Hi, thanks for trying. I stopped experimenting this a while ago after receiving feedback. but I can see that hotels are not enough to finish the game. Probably need airports or go internet directly with tourist centre (the national wonder) and use GM.

Machinery before education can delay you about 30 turns on finishing time, better to war a bit with xbows to get more jungles. otherwise education first seems better.

Probably still needs artifacts and use writer for great work to fill oxford and hermitage, but then there is no unique about Brazil. Jungle start makes wonder race very risky, so assume no wonder unless using a GE.