[BTS] Write-up for OCC Deity, Clash of War/Peace Mongers

[ScorpionK]

Hello, I make this write-up about OCC cause

1. I wish to stir up the interest in OCC a bit, as I can see it is quite unpopular. U see, the fun thing about OCC is Survival. U need every trick and do all you can do just to stay alive, in hope of some better days in future. Even you only have 1 city, but 1 turn can takes up 10 minutes. One mistake gonna cost you the game.

2. I feel a bit upset that someone still consider OCC only winnable with a serious cooked map. I agree that OCC need certain strong start but not cooked. Believe me when I said that I hate cook the map no matter what game condition I play.

I hope that someone may find this writeup useful and help each other to try new thing, even it seems hopeless.

This game will be heavily Espionage Economy, so maybe someone can use it as a reference to a small civs with 3 or 4 cities.

OK, here is the setting:

- Unrestricted leader with random civs, just to have more fun. Just hope we will not see Monty of Rome.
- PA, to make the domination less a chore.
- No barbarian: simply I find bard is more annoying than realistic.

I handpicked 3 tech AIs, and 3 war AIs, with Monty included so this game will not be a peaceful boring developement.

With Ghandi, the king of unknown emprire, we get this start



Good thing about this start: plain hill start, 2 FP, good food, coastal (not very important but harbor is got and seafood is really good)
Bad thing: no lux resources, means very weak beginning tech research.
Good thing about civs: gahni of spain, with fishing and mining is a very good tech in this start, we can delay worker until we need quarry. Mining will help use get mansonay sooner.

Here is our main strategy: going for espionage economy, so great wall is our first priority. We will do EE until PA available and then shift back to normal research to keep tech lead.

So our tech will be like this: meditation (to get holy city, which help us get massive discount tech steal), mansonary (to get GW), TW, Pottery, writing, priesthood, alphabet.

We gonna oracle CoL, I don't dare to go for something bigger cause oracle goes out quite fast in Deity.

Let's see if we can pull this off.

 

[ScorpionK]

At turn XX: we meet Mana, Darius, Peter, Monty, Sitting Bull, Brenus.

Right when Madrid grow to size 2, I make the citizen work sea tile to get meditation faster



At turn 26, we become the holy city of Buddhism, I was a bit scare cause brenus still start with mystic and he quite often choose meditation first.



Darius is the first one with writing, no surprise if he is the first one to alpha. Let's see if we can trade anything from him.



And we discover the wheel, this will give our worker something too do before we get bronze as our land cover in forest quite much.



So the second one with writing is Peter, a bit surprise cause Peter often goes for bronze, iron.



Yep, Darius is the first with alpha. It seems like he will be our tech leader of this game, luckily, he is our dear neighbor.

 

[ScorpionK]

Our first trade, I didn't plane to do this trade, cause Darius got 30% tech known in order to trade. So it seems like at least another AIs also got writing. Boy, they really live up to their level.



Ack, I got scare when I hear the world wonder announcement sound, but it is Stonehenge.



With writing, we sign OP with Brenus, in hope that his religion will reach us faster.

Yes, our first goal, Great Wall has been built in Madrid at 2530 BC. Now, let's wait patiently for our 1st Gspy.



We covert to Hindu as the whole world is Hindu believer now. I really don't understand how religions spread. We got Buddhism before Brenus got Hindu, but the only one change to Buddhism is Mana. Well, he is a coward so I don't care so much about relationship with him, as long as i am not his worst enemy.



Peter is the 2nd one with alpha, but as expected, we can not get anything from him. I don't want to trade too much.

 

[ScorpionK]

I will update more tomorrow when I got more time to write. Is it too long, too much image? Please feedback as it is my first time write a write-up.

 

[VSarius]

I'd like the 4000bc save to scope out a bit.

 

[ScorpionK]

Just update it from 1st post

 

[Tall German Joe]

why did you want to found one of the early religions? was that to force a love block?

 

[Manco Capac]

It's weird. Normally, it takes a long time before spread their religion to your cities when you found your own religion.

 

[Tall German Joe]

It's weird. Normally, it takes a long time before spread their religion to your cities when you found your own religion.

maybe the fact that he's playing on marathon has something to do with it? missionary speed would certainly be much faster in this case...

 

[Manco Capac]

True. And missionaries cost twice as much instead of a balanced 3 times more expensive.
He was probably one of the last to get Hinduism.

 

[ScorpionK]

why did you want to found one of the early religions? was that to force a love block?

There are several reasons for that:

1. Spain starts with Fishing so I don't really need any worker tech right now. My land cover in forest so there is not much my worker can do.
2. I have to get to Priesthood, so meditation is on the way sooner or later. Why not sooner, I think.
3. There have been few cases that I can not have any holy religion even if I oracle CoL. Holy religion is a massive discount for tech steal.
4. I hope my neighbor will covert to my holy religion.

True. And missionaries cost twice as much instead of a balanced 3 times more expensive.
He was probably one of the last to get Hinduism.

Yes, I hope that my neighbor will covert to my holy religion, help me have easier time with diplomacy but as you can see, by the time I got Hindu, the whole world is hindu already. I got a bit anxious waiting for hindu while watching the Darius and Peter covert already. Peter build quite much units and he can declare at Please. Early DoW will kill most the game.

I could never understand the religion spread, I got OP with brenus, so maybe that helps?

 

[ScorpionK]

Ok, the game develope stable for an OCC, building infrastructure, paid demand of Monty and SB (they gonna pay for that) and so on. Then, suddenly:

Monty declares on Brenus, u see, Brenus is my planned PA, I play a lot OCC games and I really like this guy:

But what can I do? Take a look at monty SOD, while my army is 1 warrior. So, RIP Brenus. Now I have to find another PA. Civ really never goes like we want, doesn't it?



Brenus left the world of hate in 1370BC.

In 1900 BC, Darius finnish Pyramids, about 10 turn after I build oracle so there is nothing I can do. OCC without mids is really harder than I thought, but for EE, mid is only something nice, not absolute. I go on with the game.

In 1190, I build Great Lighthouse because nobody seems bother build it and I have nothing better to build. Extra trade routes is nice no matter what, the only bad thing is Great Merchant who is quite little use for OCC.

Next post will be world war with AP crazy and dealing with a backstabber, we all know who it is, right?

 

[Tall German Joe]

i don't quite understand the point about the tech-steal option. isn't the cost to steal a tech independent of what other techs you know? if you can research it, and he has it, you can steal it for the cost it says. (in this case, 1277 ep)

cool use of espionage economy, by the way!! i'm a big fan of using it lategame on diety, but I've never tried to use it early like this.

 

[ScorpionK]

EDIT: Sorry, I am wrong about tech stealing option.

If you are interested in EE, you will see the power of it in this game cause it helps me steal the tech from 3 AIs the moment they got it, not even 1 turn later, just imagine research power of 3 Deity AIs, I have to bride war a lot to keep the tech rate slower.

Later, I even steal from a far away AIs, Monty. I steal all the tech from AIs after CoL. The only tech I self research is Lib, EE still win Lib race, u know, despite of assumption that EE will always behind.

 

[RagingHordes]

Keep going, ScorpionK! I'm a fan!

Don't worry about your English either.
Where are you from though? You post at the odd hours. Hope you are pacing yourself, don't burn out!

I played some OCC myself with Charles de Gaulle of Paris (love the flavour of Paris becoming legendary), but never using EE, just wonders (Mids) and settled specialists. I wasn't able to beat Imm though. Got past Emp easy enough. Maybe I can improve using EE.

Good luck!

 

[ScorpionK]

Wow, it is nice to have a fan of OCC. It is my first time write a write-up so feedback is really appreciated.

I am from Asia and live in Finland now. Will come back to my home soon so I consider Civ IV is my farewell to student life. Who know when will I have time after I come back

EE is really strong, and it is remove the dependent on Mids, Great wall is much cheaper of course. I use the hammer which maybe goes to Mids to build great lighthouse and few missionary to keep my neibough stay in hindu.

 

[ScorpionK]

I want to start this post by show off a pic about how I got the tech the same turn they finish. I time the movement of spy and Buddhism switch so my spy will ready when the tech ready.



About 200 years later after absorbed Brenus land, Monty decided that he can not sit down in one place, he need war to feed his stupid ego. So in 1110 BC, he DoW on Sitting Bull and 1 turn later he took a city, Chicago from SB. This guy surely knows what he's doing.

Me thinks let' them fight while I peaceful steal some nice tech. But Alas, thanks to Darius who complete AP in 1110 BC, AP craziness had come to the play. Its first decision is whole world DoW on Sitting Bull in 810BC



Why me vote yes? It's very simple at that time, I got covered by Darius and Peter so no way that any solider of SB gonna reach me while I got some nice shared war bonus. I forgot another neighbor of mine, who is a backstabber. No plotting, no demand, nothing at all. Suddenly and silently, Mana declare on me in 760 BC



I though the game is gone. How can my pitiful army (if we call it an army) defend against a deity AIs? But having EE means I got a good line of sight to Mana cities and I see no army I should scare, maybe SB ask him to DoW so he got no time to build any troops?

Anyways, I switch to vassalage (thanks Mana for let me steal Feu a little while ago) and instant 2 pop whip 2 long bow, 2 cats and send them to my border. My aim is only deal enough damage to get peace. Somehow, Mana decided to burn 1 sword 1 axe 2 chariots on my longbow on the hill. We all know how tough it is when longbow sit on a hill.

And we got peace 6 turn later, in 700BC. Quite a short war, and not good for my heart.



Uh-oh, 8 turns later Mana DoW on Darius. Now me got confused, since when Mana is a warmonger? He just got out war with me 8 turns ago, and now he takes on the biggest, strongest civs atm?



AP is really fun, it forces the world gang up Mana in 540 BC. I know that mana had his hand full with all the troop coming so I leisurely enjoy the war bonus while watching Mana got eaten down.

Not long after being gang-banged, Mana become vassal of Darius. The world enters a truly peaceful period with occasional war between Monty and SB, those guys never rest.

And in 665 AD, I decided Darius will be my PA by signing DP with him ( thanks to Military tradition that I stole the same turn), he is the strongest, tech leader and more important, he researching Steel. I don't wanna fight with a cannon army, not yet.



Thanks for reading and next post will be how I get my revenge for being bullied 1000 years ago.

 

[Doshin]

In this case, Mana has 2 tech I don't know: AH and Feu.

To steal AH, I need to put 512 EP into mana so my spy will get the tech steal option when he is on Mana's city.

If Mana only has Feu as a tech I don't know, I have to put 4914 EP into him so my spy will get the tech steal option when stand in his city. But to actual use steal the tech, I only need 1277 EPS; so nearly 4000EP will goes waste (well; it still in Mana's account but god know when will I use it again, not to mention opportunity to get it sooner) That saved 4000 EP will help me get at least 2 other techs.

I may be wrong, but I think you are misreading these screens. The 512 EP reflects the cost of stealing the cheapest tech (= Animal Husbandry), before factoring in the stationary Spy bonus. There isn't some sort of 'flat fee' which is needed to enable the tech steal option. The tech itself is the fee.

If you steal AH, the tech steal option will increase to 4914 EP (= Feudalism). However, you can still steal this at 1277 EP with a Spy that has not moved for 5 turns. It's just that, with only 1636 EPs on Mansa, you'll have to wait 4 or 5 turns for the stationary bonus to increase to a point that the cost of stealing Feudalism drops to less than 1636 EPs.

 

[ScorpionK]

I may be wrong, but I think you are misreading these screens. The 512 EP reflects the cost of stealing the cheapest tech (= Animal Husbandry), before factoring in the stationary Spy bonus. There isn't some sort of 'flat fee' which is needed to enable the tech steal option. The tech itself is the fee.

If you steal AH, the tech steal option will increase to 4914 EP (= Feudalism). However, you can still steal this at 1277 EP with a Spy that has not moved for 5 turns. It's just that, with only 1636 EPs on Mansa, you'll have to wait 4 or 5 turns for the stationary bonus to increase to a point that the cost of stealing Feudalism drops to less than 1636 EPs.

Yes, you are correct. But you misunderstand me.

It is true that no matter what I do, I still have to pay 1277 EP to steal Feu, but if Feu is only tech unknown to me, I have to put in 4914 EP to Mana BEFORE I steal it. Otherwise, the tech steal option will not be enable when my spy sit in his city.

By keeping AH as unknown tech, now I only have to put in Mana 1277 EP, the fee to steal teack AFTER all the discount. You get my point? By doing so, I could use EP more effectively.

I don't want to have a ton of EP in Mana's account, while I could use those EP to steal other techs.

Again, I am sorry for my English, I am not good at explain something. But I will try with more picture if you would like

 

[Doshin]

Yes, you are correct. But you misunderstand me.

It is true that no matter what I do, I still have to pay 1277 EP to steal Feu, but if Feu is only tech unknown to me, I have to put in 4914 EP to Mana BEFORE I steal it. Otherwise, the tech steal option will not be enable when my spy sit in his city.

I don't think this is quite true. For example, from the recent Deity Grad school game:

1) EP points on Wang Kong. I have a decent amount (2826 EPs), but not enough to steal a tech:

Spoiler :

2) I wait 5 turns with a single Spy in Wonsan. I still have too few EPs to steal a tech at face value:

Spoiler :

...but, with the accumulated stationary discount:



The discounted techs are now visible.

I may misunderstand you? If so, just say, and feel free to use pictures.