C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

Wish something would be added to Jain and Rodnovera to compensate for -10% to 20% unit construction cost in the current for it is there just to mess AI up especialy when both religions are present and AI builds all buildings.

Don't just wish, suggest something. Are they particularly anti-crime or something else?

I do have some more to do for Jain but I am working on Mormon at the moment.

In fact I feel Jain is balanced as it is. Providing sufficient offset for its -10% military unit production with other stuff. S much so that I do build the Jain buildings in my military cities. The exception to that would be the Jain Cathedral level building.

Rodnovera on the other hand I don't build in my military cities.
 
Don't just wish, suggest something. Are they particularly anti-crime or something else?

I do have some more to do for Jain but I am working on Mormon at the moment.

In fact I feel Jain is balanced as it is. Providing sufficient offset for its -10% military unit production with other stuff. S much so that I do build the Jain buildings in my military cities. The exception to that would be the Jain Cathedral level building.

Rodnovera on the other hand I don't build in my military cities.

The economic bonuses might be fine for human but AI aint so picky with buildings, it builds everything and -80% combined is very noticeable. maybe giving units and auto promotion from temple that lets say lowers XP gain and gives selfheal bonus would do the trick and wont upset flavor too much

I am just defending AI here :)
 
Wish something would be added to Jain and Rodnovera to compensate for -10% to 20% unit construction cost in the current for it is there just to mess AI up especialy when both religions are present and AI builds all buildings.

The AI handles it just fine. The -10% even up into Ren Era is from the Base hammer production anyway and not the Listed Production. In most cases it rarely hits double digit :hammers: loss. The AI is not hampered with these religions any more than the buildings Like Surveyor or even Carpenter's workshop, to name 2 of the many.

JosEPh ;)
 
I might have been over dramatic here, the issue is less/barely noticeable as more modifiers pile up. Early game AI performance difference with both religions is noticeable tho.
 
Too many religion camp here. There are usually less civilizations than religions and nearly everyone ends up with very few civilizations sharing one religion.

I think there should be a general, ancestral regional religion. A civilization could build just one religion like a wonder. Religions like Atashu and Tengri could act like a culture building and require certain conditions. Civics would decimate these these like the more "exportable" religions like how paganism was generally stomped out.
 
Why not simply have a generalised animistic religion to represent the primitive, local religions and be done with it? We shouldn't need multiple copies of it, simply to tick geographic boxes.
 
Why not simply have a generalised animistic religion to represent the primitive, local religions and be done with it? We shouldn't need multiple copies of it, simply to tick geographic boxes.

That might take it too far as animism represents: Druidism, Shamanism, Tengriism, Shintoism and perhaps even more of the religions we currently have. I agree though, that early religions should be more generalized concepts of religions. This would also be necessary if we were to introduce evolving religions I think.
 
All right, maybe not quite as extreme as I implied, but (in game terms) what differentiates Native American shamanism from Australasian shamanism, other than the Pacific Ocean?
 
Dreamtime is not Animism so one big difference. Ancient North American Animism is different to the Great Spirit based religion and the various American Polytheistic religions.

edit anyway I should be able to get back to getting the current set fully modular. Or at least the ones currently in Custom_Religions after v36 is released.
 
Trying to boil all 'forms' of animism down to one type or to toss Aboriginal beliefs, Incan beliefs and Cherokee beliefs into the same religion box is absolutely absurd. But I suppose you'd have to really know what these people really believed to see why.

There's a lot of differing opinions here and mine are truly contradictory to any saying we have too many religions. In my opinion, the game effect of the differences between religions perfectly encapsulates that hatred and anger expressed between mere BRANCHES of Christianity alone and I balk at having only one form of that in the game for that very reason. Not making Catholicism and Protestantism two separate religions is, in my view, akin to saying Islam and Judaism should be the same religion.

In game effect, if most civs don't have a decent shot at creating their own religion, many civs go without a holy city which gives some a severe competitive edge over the others and can spark the beginning of a steamroll. Having each religion with its own deadend tech has been a great way to help spread them around.

But there are some cultures simply missing and this does not give all origins of humanity equal credit. Surely it takes a deeply Eurocentric view to discard the differences between Australian native religion and the rest of the world's earliest religions as being relatively unimportant in distinction. Of course, the differences are beyond profound.

The Cherokee say that God taught the different people different things, different ways to know him, on purpose, so as to set us all on different paths of understanding. I personally believe that it's only by seeing how all these religions are in their own ways bringing a portion of the truth to the table that we can begin to start seeing the big picture, which can only now begin to happen in our increasingly globalized world.

So I feel that recognizing the cultures that had their own strongest belief systems and being willing to differentiate those religions and have them included based on their key differences, rather than trying to blend them together for whatever excuse is possible, is the only way to go with the mod. We need to highlight that what these differing early people had to say still has a lot of value and merit and cannot simply be melted down into, 'stupid stuff ancient people all believed.'
 
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Lucius Annaeus Seneca
 
My opinion on the matter:

Spoiler :
Early religions don't have holy cities and all religions are founded by wonders instead of tech.

Some regular early buildings (like animal myths) spread a general Animism religion OR generate a general Spirituality property. This would again unlock some animism specific buildings.

The National Wonder (NW) or World Wonder (WW) "Myth of the rainbow serpent" would require Animism religion (or a certain amount of spirituality property), "myth of the waterhole", "myth of the snake" and perhaps even oceanic native culture. This wonder would enable Dreamtime related buildings in all cities and would spread Animism or generate spirituality property.

Different forms of shamanism would be represented through animism offshoots similar to dreamtime, and they would all spread the Shamanism religion. One form of shamanism would exclude most/all others.
Druidism would perhaps require "Stonehenge + more" which spreads druidism religion.

Up until now I've only defined 2-3 religions, that don't have a holy city, and would unfold in many different way in different nations through WW or NW. Some offshoots may exclude others. So that you don't get to many conflicting offshoots in each nation. For example one American shamanistic NW would exclude all other form of american shamanism NW.

Later polytheistic religions may require animism, druidism or shamanism, perhaps a certain spirituality property value, and some building. they may or may not have a holy city and doesn't necessarily, like Dreamtime, need to be defined as a religion.

Very specific variations of a religion, e.g. Tibetanian Buddhism should perhaps be represented by a WW that requite the cultural resource "Tibetanian", buddhism to be present in city. and it would not spread a unique religion, only regular Buddhism.

I agree that catholicism and protestantism should be two distinct religions. I have no problem with many religions but we should look for ways to restrain it a bit.

I do not hold the answer to how all the current religions would fit into this scheme and I haven't really considered how religions should be in the game before today, so some of it may be flawed.
 
I think it might be useful to categorize religions into three groups:

Prehistoric: Myths and tales, with little or no organized church. No proseltiyzation or claims that their beliefs are superior to others.
Polytheist: An organized church where followers worship one or more gods, and that makes claims of superiority but does not deny the existence of other religions' gods.
Monotheist: A very organized church with only one sect (although heresies might exist) which claims all other religions are false.
The names aren't great, and they shouldn't be associated with Civ4 eras. Prehistoric just means that these are religious beliefs that existed in civilizations that had no written history.

So Animist or Shamanist religions are Prehistoric, Hellenism or Asatru are Polytheistic, and the Abrahamic religions are Monotheistic, etc.

Prehistoric religions would be best implemented by not being a religion at all, instead having a special unit add beliefs buildings like the resurrection, karma, etc. ones we already have, rather than spreading what was setup in the original game as one among a system of competing religions. The special units could be granted for free at religious & cultural tech levels rather than be GP or buildable, so each civ would get 3 or 4 and pick from a list of religious traditions, sort of how CiV does it. The beliefs buildings would require 'no state religion' so once you adopted and spread an organized religion to a city they would stop working.

Polytheist religions would work pretty much the same as they do right now, coexisting with other religions just fine. To make the game a little harder you could create lower powered versions of the minority religion buildings for the Monotheist religions suggested below.

Monotheist religions would give larger bonuses than Pantheist religions, but having a non-state monotheist religion in one of your cities would auto build a 'minority [religious] group' building that could give penalties to stability, happiness, hammers, commerce, maintenance, or whatever. The severity would depend on which religious civics you had, so with Secular you'd get almost no penalty, Free Religion would be higher, State Church even worse, etc. up to Intolerant and Atheism being really bad. There could be different auto upgrade levels of the building, too, so with just the religion present you would have 'minority [religious] group', but with the religion & the temple built you'd have 'minority [religious] following' which would give worse penalties, and with the religion & the temple & the cathedral built you'd have 'minority [religious] populace' which would be even worse.

Non-state religion temples, etc. couldn't be built to prevent the AI from building them & not realizing the bonuses don't outweigh the penalties of the auto-build ones. Historically rulers didn't usually fund construction of infidel temples anyway. Occasional events could fire offering a choice to players:

Allow non state religion to build their temple in a city. (Free temple, temporary +:) & :culture: )
Offer to pay for it yourself. (Costs :gold:, Free temple, longer lasting temporary +:) & :culture: )
Deny it. (temporary +:mad:)

Playing with revolutions on, the happiness could be augmented or replaced with a change in stability. A similar event would allow you to upgrade the temple to a cathedral.

This way you could either have a pluralistic society with many different religions, a theocratic one with just your own state religion, or try for a balancing act in between. It would also push civs along a more historical path, with religiously diverse societies becoming more secular, and homogeneous ones becoming more theocratic. Changing religions would be more difficult too. Going from a Pantheist to a Monothiest state religion wouldn't be too hard, but changing from one Monotheist religion to another one after you've built temples & cathedrals in your cities would slam you with big :mad: penalties or revolutions. One way to work around this would be to switch to a more forgiving religion civic first, and after you've changed religions and built the new temples in your cities switch back to intolerant & start the inquisition.
 
Hellenism or Asatru are Pantheistic.
That is wrong. Pantheism is that everything (and I do mean everything, rocks, plants, animals, humans, etc) is god and that god has no personality. Everything is part of the same divine spirit. The whole universe is one god and that makes god equal to nature. Druidism & Taoism are the only example of pantheism that I can think of.

You may be confusing the term with polytheistic.
 
Trying to boil all 'forms' of animism down to one type or to toss Aboriginal beliefs, Incan beliefs and Cherokee beliefs into the same religion box is absolutely absurd. But I suppose you'd have to really know what these people really believed to see why.

...

So I feel that recognizing the cultures that had their own strongest belief systems and being willing to differentiate those religions and have them included based on their key differences, rather than trying to blend them together for whatever excuse is possible, is the only way to go with the mod. We need to highlight that what these differing early people had to say still has a lot of value and merit and cannot simply be melted down into, 'stupid stuff ancient people all believed.'

My point was putting religions that are heavily tied to the nation's culture into it's own box. It had nothing to do with how beliefs are all animistic/pagan or like each other, simply that it's the religion of their ancestors. Putting them under the same box could open a huge set of mechanics and make ancestral religions possibly the most interesting "religion" to play as.

This was not supposed to demean the value of certain religions. As far as I'm concern, modern religions are no more special than the past ones. I do not support Navats ideal for grouping them as monotheism isn't that unique in the long run.

I agree about the Protestant/catholic thing.
 
OK. I have not read all of this thread, so may be repeating what has already been said, and possibly been dismissed.

Instead of making religions a free for all, why not tie them to native cultures. At least in the early parts of the game. In more recent times you can make them more easily adoptable.

i.e. If you have native culture American, you may adopt religions A, B, C. etc.
If you have native culture Polynesian, you may adopt religions D, E, F. etc.

You may also want to consider - link some religions to specific national cultures - Roman, religion G, H.

Also when two different cultures meet American/European then you can adopt the others religion, if so desired etc.

Just a thought - I have no opinion one way or other.
 
OK. I have not read all of this thread, so may be repeating what has already been said, and possibly been dismissed.

Instead of making religions a free for all, why not tie them to native cultures. At least in the early parts of the game. In more recent times you can make them more easily adoptable.

i.e. If you have native culture American, you may adopt religions A, B, C. etc.
If you have native culture Polynesian, you may adopt religions D, E, F. etc.

You may also want to consider - link some religions to specific national cultures - Roman, religion G, H.

Also when two different cultures meet American/European then you can adopt the others religion, if so desired etc.

Just a thought - I have no opinion one way or other.

The idea of linking them to Cultures either regional or specific is contrary to the anyone can do anything basis for C2C.

However I can see it as an interesting alternative in a modmod.
 
You have regional animals, don't you? And what about the latitude-restricted buildings?
 
Mormonism is very weird as of now. It's the only religion were dietary restrictions are enforced. It would at least be better if the restrictions were for hard drugs instead of tea for the shrine.

Also, there should really be a shrine name. Would Salt Lake City be the functional holy city? I wonder if theLDS Conference Center would work. It's a decently impressive building that broadcast religious services twice a year. It also has a couple of really big pipe organ that would make a distinctive icon.

I also had an idea for Mormonism to be founded by a special Mormon settler unit(Mormon Pioneer - they do reenactments to this day) instead of a great prophet? It has it's basis in history, and it would prevent the player from simply making their third quintuplely holy mega city. Actually having to settle a new place for a new holy city would make gameplay more interesting.
 
There is a replacement Mormon religion being worked on. It is not complete but most of it is on the SVN version in the Modues\My_Mods(Unloaded) folder. you can try it out by
  1. moving the current Mormon folder out of Custom_Religions and into the My_Mods(Unloaded) folder

  2. copy the Mormon New folder from My_Mods(Unloaded) into Custom_Religions

  3. Rename the Custom_religions folder Mormon New to Mormon
 
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