Can the AI keep up after renaissance ?

[cobbaut]

Hi,

I would like advice on how to make my next C2C game to be more challenging.

My last games were on deity-eons and after two/three months and around 3000 turns, I am in the lead in research, area and military size. Being ahead is no fun, so I start a new game. But for once I would like to get further in the game than renaissance era...

What are some good options to enable/disable so the AI stays in the lead till after renaissance ? This screenshot shows my current settings.

Spoiler settings screenshot :

City Flipping after Conquest : this scares me, so I should probably enable it right ?
Barbarian World : Leave at disabled, since it limits AI growth ?
Teleport Hunting Awards : Disabling this will definitely slow down my progress. Question is, does it slow me down more than it slows the AI ?
Start as Minor Civs: I will disable this, I read somewhere that this hampers the growth of AI at the start of the game. (imho it also keeps the AI's fighting among each other).
No tech brokering: I have this option enabled since forever, does disabling this option (enabling brokering) benefit the AI ? I think so.
Win for losing and No Tech Handicaps for Humans: Both these should probably be enabled!

Are there other settings or map settings that I should consider ?

I will also move to Nightmare instead of deity (and to latest SVN). Last time I tried Nightmare the barbarians killed my one city with two big stacks, I will defend it better now so this will also slow my progress.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Thunderbrd]

City Flipping after Conquest : this scares me, so I should probably enable it right ?

Dunno if this would make any difference.

Barbarian World : Leave at disabled, since it limits AI growth ?

Yeah I think it'd hurt the AI more than you.

Teleport Hunting Awards : Disabling this will definitely slow down my progress. Question is, does it slow me down more than it slows the AI ?

MUCH more damaging to the AI to turn this off than it is to you.

Start as Minor Civs: I will disable this, I read somewhere that this hampers the growth of AI at the start of the game. (imho it also keeps the AI's fighting among each other).

Yeah the AI could be improved a lot to handle this more specifically.

No tech brokering: I have this option enabled since forever, does disabling this option (enabling brokering) benefit the AI ? I think so.

Now here I don't know... I don't play with tech trading on usually because I feel it lightning bolts through all eras after tech trading becomes available and the brokering option is only a secondary. Most AI seem to now follow similar paths in research so may not benefit as much from trading as they might if they were more inclined to differ strongly in their research paths or even try to recognize and choose specific tech trading partners and divvy up techs to research in a cooperative AI routine consideration. However, I also feel that once a player gets ahead where tech trading isn't allowed, they are then assured of staying ahead due to the steamroll of free stuff and the ability to be first to get access to building wonders and MAYBE open tech trading, particularly brokering, MIGHT make it harder to stay significantly ahead? I don't know. Certainly makes it harder to keep up on build queues to make the techs you are getting in faster worthwhile and that's one way that a harder difficulty setting would have it up on you - their handicap in this area might really give them the ability to faster leverage the techs they are gathering quicker through trade.

Win for losing and No Tech Handicaps for Humans: Both these should probably be enabled!

Well they are specifically designed to attack the steamroll effect, particularly the Human player's steamroll effect. I personally haven't been able to play a good invested game with it all yet but I'm still optimistic that it should help a lot with steamroll counteraction, though a clever player, even a human one in this scenario, could use WFL as a bit of a weapon against larger Non-Human player nations.

Are there other settings or map settings that I should consider ?

The main thing would be to establish yourself and try to play to cooperate as much as you can for as long as you can. Hold off on trying to dominate everything like a Euro-colonist until later in the game so it can be a more fun experience - obviously this doesn't mean let them kick your ass and that's the hard part, particularly on such a difficult setting, but try to match them like you are playing a ruler that doesn't care to take over everything but really also doesn't want them coming in to take over you. There are trait selections you can make for that sort of approach as well.

 

[cobbaut]

Thanks for the thorough explanation!

 

[ScubaV]

I too play on Deity and generally do not have much trouble outpacing the AI by classical/medieval. Usually there is one AI civ that is somewhat competitive and the rest fall hopelessly behind. I find the AI in general to be extremely timid, even if they have a strength advantage. It likes to declare war on me if the ratio gets too high, even if the relationship is good, but it rarely actually sends units to attack. Same goes for AI vs. AI wars. They may conquer a couple cities, but will generally reach a steady state and allow the human player run amok. I've noticed that the AI will try to found more cities to keep up with the human player, but if there are no valid plots left, it does not instead get aggressive with it's neighbors. I haven't tested it, but I suspect one way to help the AI is to have relatively fewer civs compared to the map size and minimal barbarian/neanderthal activity. This should allow the AI room to expand faster than the human player initially, without forcing it to be aggressive.

 

[cobbaut]

Yes.

Doing this now, down from 22 AI to 14. I'll post an update around round 1000 and round 2000 or something.

It is unfortunate though that the AI is not conquering smaller neighbours completely. It is also not defending its cities with archers when under attack from me, sometimes it moves half of its units out of a city when I have a stack of doom next to it. Anyway, I'll follow the suggestion of not conquering my neighbour AI's too soon this game.

 

[cobbaut]

Update after 600 turns on Nightmare...

I seem to be losing, this is excellent!
My capital is much smaller than all the AI cities, great!
I am everyone's worst enemy, and they are all furious, cool!
And what's with the "-5 A first impression is a lasting one". Is that a nightmare feature ? Nice!

This is gonna be fun!

I seem to have a strong army though compared to Tupi and England, (with two chasers promoted to tracker and one Master Hunter).
Somehow the barbarians stay away from my city...

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's funny when you feel like fist pumping for losing but yeah, the beginning of the game can feel like that if you're used to dominating the whole way through.

 

[Septentrion]

I like the option of Barbarain World, but it mostly matters just in the very early game where the AI is fairly competent. It seems a bit backwards to help it in the prehistoric era, so it'll have a inflated lead it'll lose later on. The countdown until AI incompetence seems to be the current endgame.

I could see the combination of Minor Civs and Barbarain World stumping the AI's lead, but a early game without either is just too simple.

 

[cobbaut]

I accidentally started the previous game with "One City Challenge', bummer! So I started again on Nightmare and Snail.

In the new game I am "Dom Pedro of Brazil". This is the score after turn 600.

In turn 679 someone got Sedentary Lifestyle. I clicked on it in the research tab, and it would take me 20 techs to beeline into Sedentary Lifestyle. I still have only one city and have some catching up to do, good!

This is turn 885, my neighbour Genghis Khan is declaring war on me for the second time, he does not send any army my way luckily. Also, I have less than half his score (202 vs 96).

This is turn 973, I got Sedentary last turn (almost 300 turns after the first AI got it) and can finally spy a little on all three AI's on this continent.

At turn 1016 Genghis Khan passed 300 points, more than double my score. I am gaining on Arabia though...

This is so much fun, thank you guys for making this mod!!!

 

[Somebody613]

This is so much fun, thank you guys for making this mod!!!

And you are... weird, lol.
But I'm glad you enjoy the mod, cause I do that as well, a lot.

 

[cobbaut]

And you are... weird, lol.
But I'm glad you enjoy the mod, cause I do that as well, a lot.

Weird yeah, if only you knew!

I was getting tired of being so far ahead in Renaissance era, for me the game is no fun if you are all powerful and way more advanced than the AI...

 

[Somebody613]

Weird yeah, if only you knew!

I was getting tired of being so far ahead in Renaissance era, for me the game is no fun if you are all powerful and way more advanced than the AI...

Well, the much LONGER SCALE goal (for the "standard" Pit's map that I always play on) - is SPACE COLONIZATION, lol.
So merely conquering the *Earth* is a much "lower priority" now that we can COLONIZE THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, mwahahaha.

 

[Septentrion]

I"m surprised there's a 0.9 army strength with Arabia while some nation out there has a 50% tech lead on you. A conquest can change the shape of the game, but I assume the geography doesn't favor such actions happening so soon. I usually have the number of AIs above the suggested amount for a given map size. You'll might need to expand aggressively to catch up to a technologically superior continent.

 

[cobbaut]

I"m surprised there's a 0.9 army strength with Arabia while some nation out there has a 50% tech lead on you.

For the army strength: I've been building more military units than I'd like, hoping to prevent the Mongolia from attacking me every 60 turns.
For the tech lead: It's probably not 50%, there are 98 techs in prehistory and I was only 20 techs behind the leading AI. (and maybe had some techs that this AI skipped)

A conquest can change the shape of the game, but I assume the geography doesn't favor such actions happening so soon.

Conquest (after Bronze Working or so) is how I won the previous games on deity. The AI is really bad at war so it is fairly easy to conquer them and become much bigger than the rest. So this game I'm gonna be peaceful (but defensive) for a long time and try to keep up with the seven cities I was able to found. I think Thunderbrd advised me something like this.

I usually have the number of AIs above the suggested amount for a given map size. You'll might need to expand aggressively to catch up to a technologically superior continent.

I set the number of AI's to 15 instead of 12. I used to add even more AI's, but it can limit their expansion and I want some competition in the post-renaissance game too.

I'll post an update after 2000 turns. At the moment Mongolia just passed 400 points, still more than double than me, but I'm slowly catching Arabia (who seems to be boxed in by the other two).


One strange thing happened though: For a long time one AI was at -1 gold (according to the demographics) sometimes going to 0 or -2 (this was way before any Anarchy). Probably the same AI was also stuck at 2x50 population way longer than me. When this game is over I will go back and look at this.

 

[cobbaut]

up to turn 1410:
- Victoria from England met me a while ago, and introduced me to Gilgamesh from Sumeria
- Suleiman met me
- Mongolia stays at war, over 100 turns already. They attack rarely, only one stack of twelve attacked my stack on a forested hill. I lost only one unit, they lost eleven.
- Mongolia got a hero, and had it venture all alone in my territory, attacking a city (killing one archer, but then I killed it).
- I've been building army like crazy, but can't keep up with Mongolia (2.0 ratio)
- in turn 1410 someone got to "Classical Lifestyle", if I click on it then it says 40... 40 techs behind!

Most exciting game ever so far !!

 

[Septentrion]

There seem to be a power gradient. I would guess Arabia is going to be a vassal with one or two cities. I need to remember to turn off vassal states in the future.

679 - 973 {} 294 more turns to Sed
It was a 43% tech lead in the way I was thinking.

1410
Should take 610 turns, or turn 2020 at this pace to reach Classical.

 

[Septentrion]

It's probably a safe bet that Persia isn't going to be a power player on the new world stage., so I would suggest expanding at the expense of Persia or Arabia if needed. It's probably not going to happen with Persia before turn 1700 because they are strong now. If the big civilizations expand when you don't, you could end up further behind.

 

[cobbaut]

It's probably a safe bet that Persia isn't going to be a power player on the new world stage., so I would suggest expanding at the expense of Persia or Arabia if needed. It's probably not going to happen with Persia before turn 1700 because they are strong now. If the big civilizations expand when you don't, you could end up further behind.

Well, probably not going to attack them. At turn 1623 Persia was at 2.4 my strength, and Mongolia at 2.6. And Mongolia still does not want peace. I got Arabia to join me in war.

Also, I promised not to attack anyone this game...

--

I got Bronze Working at turn 1633, upgraded all my units, Persia and Mongolia still at 2.3. (Sumeria lost two cities to England, that's why they are behind.)

--

A bit further now, turn 1642 Persia attacked England, went down to 1.8 army strength. All of a sudden Mongolia wants peace, the next turn Mongolia attacks Persia. So I am at peace now with my two big neighbours at war with each other, yeah!

I have no clue where England or any of the others are, I have not seen any unit from them at all.

One of Mongolia's cities has 54% my culture, I hope they revolt and join me.

I have plenty gold (more than on Deity), but lack in Education (minus 200 in capital) even though I built all the education buildings. Crime is barely maintainable after Bronze Working, capital has ten Enforcers.

Super many thanks to all who worked on creating this mod!

 

[Somebody613]

Bards (or whatnot) could help with Education, ya know.
Just build a dozen of them, promote with Education(?), and let them sit in your city, giving automatic +Ed just by existing.
Unless they're too costly for you, but I'd say it's worth the balance shift.

 

[garfunkel]

Yeah Storyteller and later Bards can help with education since you said you have plenty of gold.