Catapults - useless?

[lissenber]

Hello. I`ve just gotten back to playing Civ 3 again. I`ve done a few test games on Sid Archipelago to see how well i manage and after reading some of the Sid succession games i`m thinking about making one myself.

However sometimes (or most of the times) i`d rather go with a different strategy than what i see the experts using. For example, i don`t see why everyone values catapults so much. Maybe it is my lack of experience with them.

So here`s my problem with catapults. At ancient times they cost 20 shields, count as military. This means they are equivalent to archer/spearman costs and 2/3-rds of a swordsman shield cost. On the case of a scenario where i`m attacking a city that has 15 spearmen+hill/wall, aren`t 38 archers+2 spearmen/24 swordsman+4 archer better than 18 archers+2 spearmen+20 catapults?

My experience with catapults has been minimal (i`ve only been using a few of them plus the ones i capture from other civilizations). In my test games i placed one on a cliff near a goverments city & bombarded every turn. But it never damaged their buildings and damaged units healed after 1 turn.So how exactly do you guys use them? Stack about 10 and then bombard enemy city right before attacking? Or bombard every turn untill the result is good enough? Use only for defending choke points? Only for defending your cities? Fortify or bombard before you get hit by a stack of 10 warriors?

 

[Snarkhunter]

On the case of a scenario where i`m attacking a city that has 15 spearmen+hill/wall, aren`t 38 archers+2 spearmen/24 swordsman+4 archer better than 18 archers+2 spearmen+20 catapults?

My experience with catapults has been minimal (i`ve only been using a few of them plus the ones i capture from other civilizations). In my test games i placed one on a cliff near a goverments city & bombarded every turn. But it never damaged their buildings and damaged units healed after 1 turn.So how exactly do you guys use them? Stack about 10 and then bombard enemy city right before attacking? Or bombard every turn untill the result is good enough? Use only for defending choke points? Only for defending your cities? Fortify or bombard before you get hit by a stack of 10 warriors?

I don't use them much, simply because they don't stay useful long & I don't do much warring in the AA. That doesn't mean I don't build them, though; I do & upgrade to trebs when the opportunity arrives. I also haven't played above emperor level.

I find that cats work just fine against spears. I use them & bombards in general to: recon what I'm facing in a city; redline opposing troops to keep mine healthier. Occasionally it happens that there's too many defenders to do more than make a dent in them, then I bombard each turn, try to get more units to the front & try for some careful attritions. If I can pick off a few units over time I get to a point where the bombards can finally start whacking all the units that are left. At my level, 8-12 cats are the stack of choice for dealing with most spear-defended cities. I usually don't have time/resources to build more until the MidA. Later on, I'll usually have 30-40 bombards, divided into 2 stacks for attacks.

kk

 

[CKS]

If you are attacking a city with 15 spears, you'll want a lot more catapults. However, 38 archers attacking fortified spears on a hill behind a wall aren't going to do anything but kill themselves and promote the spears. The reason for liking catapults is that they don't die when they lose and they don't promote the defenders. If your attackers are substantially better than the defenders, you don't need them (but they may still be nice), but on Sid, you aren't going to have the edge in quality of units.

If attacking a city, in conquests artillery units preferentially target units in the town. You won't start attacking buildings until all the units have been red-lined (or killed if you are using Hwacha).

To attack a city, have lots more catapults than expected defenders. Bombard until all defenders are damaged. Then attack. If my units are attacking damaged (ideally, red-lined) defenders, they are much more likely to win. If I attack undamaged defenders who are stronger than my attackers, my attackers die and the defenders promote.

To defend against a SOD, bombard them as they get into range. Some may retreat without attacking. The ones that attack will get hit with defensive bombardment, and may lose hp from it, making them more likely to die.

If boats approach, bombard them. Sometimes they'll retreat, other times you can attack red-lined boats with your own.

 

[vmxa]

I could not tell you how many Sid island games I have played, but it is a lot. I never have attacked with archer, let alone cats.

First most of the time you do not have contact right away, but these are huge maps, so that could change. The AI will not venture out on seas or ocean, till it has Astro or Nav/Mag.

At the point anyone has Astro, archers are not going to cut it. I am not going to take bombardment, even artillery on boats to invade. My position on any level is I want troops. I will send over bombardment on the next wave.

They are use for defending, not attacking. I agree their value is not promoting and not dying. They can help drive off boats and weaken units, prior to attacking them. The main way I go about taken down a Sid nation is with armies.

I want to land mostly defenders, so they will spend a lot of their units on my beach town. Then the armies grind down town after town.

Contintent and Pan maps are different as you have contacts much sooner to instantly. The only time I have ever had 20 cats is on a massive map. That is 250x250 or larger and 31 nations, AW. Then you must have a lot of cats as you tend to have a lot of nations attackng you.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

What CKS said! I've had lots of fun bombarding galleys at sea from shore before they disgorge their invasion force. Once damaged, they suusally run away.

Regarding choke points, having a small covering force of spears reinforced on a mountain with a fortress built will keep your cats safe and allow you to take several pot shots against an invading stack. A fast unit can kill the redlined units and retreat abck to safety on the mountain.

 

[Hellfiredoom]

I never build anything below artillery, but once I get RP build at least 60 arts: 20 each for two stacks of doom, and 20 for homeland security.

 

[lissenber]

@vmxa

I got another question. Is starting with an AI neighbour in a larger island worse than starting on a small lonely island?

 

[Fiddlin Nero]

I never build anything below artillery, but once I get RP build at least 60 arts: 20 each for two stacks of doom, and 20 for homeland security.

Same here, I find the range of 1 too limiting and the hits don't come often enough until Artillery. Movement is a problem too, without railroads you really can't get the earlier units anywhere in reasonable time. I like stacks of 37 artillery, its usually enough to knock down city defenders enough for my attackers.

 

[madviking]

I'm playing an SG where we have to fight Greece with archers and spears. Fighting hoplites sans cats is downright impossible, but cats en masse work very well.

 

[vmxa]

@vmxa

I got another question. Is starting with an AI neighbour in a larger island worse than starting on a small lonely island?

Are still talking about a Sid level game? If so then I would say it tends to be worse. Why is that you either get killed or you are not able to expand as you should, due to fighting or preparing to defend.

I have had a large island with one other and I was Mayan and got very lucky to roll over the Mongols many years back. I recall some of the events and I felt I had to attack as they had a stack of 12 units close and were about to settle on a tile that had horses.

I triggered my GA and got an ealry leader and took them out. They played very poorly and let me do it. They kept dithering and not coming for me and also trying to get new towns up.

I keep hitting them and making armies, till they had no chance. Still this required an early UU, luck and dumb play on their part. I have also been run over on large islands and continents with more than 1 AI.

You tend to stunt your expansion and research and it is unlikely that you can get the GLB with someone on your land to fight, unless you try to get along. That is iffy as they have so much and the island will fill quickly.

BTW the JT is essenially an archer, but it is also a spear and has enslavement. A UU that is an archer type is the exception to not taking on a Sid nation with archers and spears. I have not tried ti with the Bowman and would probably not want to do it. The defensive is what give the edge to a JT. It can defend as well as attack, so I need fewer units in a given situation.

 

[GamezRule]

I'm playing an SG where we have to fight Greece with archers and spears. Fighting hoplites sans cats is downright impossible, but cats en masse work very well.

Hey, we got a sword army there at the very end.

 

[Northen Wolf]

I'm monarch/emperor player, I often use 5 cats, 2 spears, ~3 swords/archers as offensive units to take AA towns. Why use cats?

First, cats have long term value that well compensates for "one-less-spear-for-20-shields-waste" issue.

--- Out of stack of 20 archers, roughly 12 will die attacking spear-town on a hill (worst case of scenario). using 10 Cats'll cut that to ~6 units. Not much, but in the long run (several cities, turns later), it can mean many more military leaders = armies and survived units.

On open ground:
1) Bombing enemy units = AI is less likely to attack with wounded units
2) Cats have defensive bombardment - one less hp for attacking enemy
3) Cats can hit SoD - one less hp for them = few more survived units, should you attack that stack

In city defense:
1) AI rarely attacks with wounded units, preferring to retreat them
2) Defensive bombardment gives bonus to defenders
3) You can later pick of retreating wounded units with cavalry (or via using road network) or lead them into Tunnel of Doom (where cats can fire more freely and you can use those Elite Archers from AA

In conclusion:
Cats defensive bombardment makes them worth having with offensive units and sieged towns, fact that they can "save" several units from dying in the long run, makes them well worth their cost (sacrificing 20 shields for 100 shields-saved-long-run). In AA, half of the stack should still be offensive units, as you probably can't own large military and cats count as military units.

 

[lissenber]

I`ve been doing more reading than playing so

What`s SoD?

Btw also from Estland

 

[Northen Wolf]

Tervist!

SoD - Stack of Doom, military units stacked on top of each other.

Commonly Used Acronyms in the Civ Community

War Academy was a good read and helped me alot

 

[Richie0]

yes, they're bloody useful

lets you try and take on greece or cartage without them. and even then you will lose swordsmen

if you take swordsmen versus spearman, in my experience, 3 swordsmen will take a spearman down for sure, 2 probably will, and 1 might. that's what, 60%-66% odds?

fair enough if you've got 20 swordsmen, then you will batter through most cities in the AA

with swords versus red-lined spearmen though, you lose (in my experience) once every 12-15 attacks

far better odds than 60%

if they have pikemen they you'd better have iron. cos swords get chewed up, you need the knights or medieval infantry.

otherwise it's longbowmen and trebuchets for you. when you're attacking with that lot, you should be feeling the self-brought on humiliation

and lastly, they upgrade all the way to artillery (technically radar artillery, but i don't play that long). artillery wins the game for you even if you clown around picking bombard spots at random