Cities Defenses wich damage adjacent units are doing way too much damage

[Thunderbrd]

OK, got it. This change slows down recalculation processes a bit but won't slow down gameplay at all and will correct a LOT of problems with replaced and obsoleted buildings continuing to contribute their abilities despite being obsoleted or replaced.

I can speed this all up some but will wait until I get into doing some more fixes planned for replacement building issues. How THIS whole system works was hinged on replaced buildings not continuing to contribute their tag abilities to the city so this will return some sanity to the adjacent damage system.

However... I recognize some additional need to deepen this system significantly in a number of ways as well. I'm just not ready to work on that directly because I've been making real progress on the unit planning as well and don't want to get sucked back into the coding as much until I'm done there - or at least when I start to get back diving into the code to complete those plans. So for now, that this system could be improved is noted. Let's at least get back to it being generally debugged, along with tons and tons of other building effect issues. Y'all will see a lot of balance changes here as things are brought back to how it was supposed to be all along.

I believe 2 things you'll really notice - gold balance and production times will improve a lot in later game. I've been hearing that there have been some unusual and unexpected imbalances there and this is probably why.

IF YOU HAVE an existing game, recalculate it as soon as you can get this update! SHIFT+CTRL+T Might take a little while but it will be worth it.

 

[Raven Destroyer]

just how bad could this bug be?, because it might've affected a lot of Balance changes based upon data that actually are factually wrong because it incorporated values that Should've been obsolete or replaced by things, the way I'm understanding and reading it this might be quite an extensive bug as things might've been build from it,

like you're saying yourself this Fix already makes a noticeable difference in both Production and Gold value, so probably the central balance needs to be rechecked and adjusted back to the expected line.... I can imagine that'd be quite a lot of work

in any case good work squashing this bug

 

[Thunderbrd]

just how bad could this bug be?, because it might've affected a lot of Balance changes based upon data that actually are factually wrong because it incorporated values that Should've been obsolete or replaced by things, the way I'm understanding and reading it this might be quite an extensive bug as things might've been build from it,

like you're saying yourself this Fix already makes a noticeable difference in both Production and Gold value, so probably the central balance needs to be rechecked and adjusted back to the expected line.... I can imagine that'd be quite a lot of work

in any case good work squashing this bug

Thankfully, C2C has never been TOO fine tuned that it doesn't have some expected variation in balances. The fact that it was never outright noted outside of this issue being a detector certainly shows how much shock absorption in terms of game balance the system has overall. I don't know how long this was an issue or when it was exactly introduced and maybe its been with us ever since recalcs were a thing, but I have been hearing some complaining about how fast production times and how much gold there is later in the game so hopefully this is more towards better balance now than it is introducing a new balance problem. Time will tell.

But OH YEAH this was a huge bug - ginormous and insidious.

 

[JosEPh_II]

But OH YEAH this was a huge bug - ginormous and insidious.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hope this isn't another case of your test games and resulting setups relying on the bug to exist for balance to exist - hopefully it isn't quite as bad as that one. I think as far as balance twisting it won't be as bad as some of the things we've gone through with raw fundamental calculation problems in scaling factors.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Hope this isn't another case of your test games and resulting setups relying on the bug to exist for balance to exist - hopefully it isn't quite as bad as that one. I think as far as balance twisting it won't be as bad as some of the things we've gone through with raw fundamental calculation problems in scaling factors.

It shouldn't be.

 

[tantoniou]

IF YOU HAVE an existing game, recalculate it as soon as you can get this update! SHIFT+CTRL+T Might take a little while but it will be worth it.

Ok, I got a new game with the latest SVN, tried a recalc a few turns back (for a reason I can't remember now) and suddenly I noticed that my cities defenses dropped down dramatically! I mean, it's like they have no walls!!!
Any chance something in this calculation messes up with defenses?

EDIT: Though I have no negative traits option enabled (no pure traits though), my cities defenses are now -20%!!! I guess that svn update did some work because this is the first time I see this (played many times as Mansa Munsa), and now my city walls are made from paper!!!
Does the option no negative traits include these kind of traits???

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, I got a new game with the latest SVN, tried a recalc a few turns back (for a reason I can't remember now) and suddenly I noticed that my cities defenses dropped down dramatically! I mean, it's like they have no walls!!!
Any chance something in this calculation messes up with defenses?

EDIT: Though I have no negative traits option enabled (no pure traits though), my cities defenses are now -20%!!! I guess that svn update did some work because this is the first time I see this (played many times as Mansa Munsa), and now my city walls are made from paper!!!
Does the option no negative traits include these kind of traits???

Certainly defensive buildings that were obsoleted or replaced would finally be removed from consideration after recalculating whereas before they wouldn't have been so a drop in defense could be expected.

Positive traits can have some negative effects and some of them do reduce defense values, potentially to a negative base. Is that what's happening for you specifically?

Your pic makes it look more severe, which is a bit strange.

 

[tantoniou]

Your pic makes it look more severe, which is a bit strange.

Yes it's more severe than I thought after I found out about my neg traits. Take a look at this screenshot, with the defense hover analysis you provided not so long ago... don't know why this happened after a recalc, and no matter how far back I go to saves it's the same!!! I think all the world has this now, not just me, but it is more severe to me due to my neg traits. I almost lost a city to a barb stack a while back, my neighbor lost 2 to them!!! They didn't even need siege weaponry

(EDIT: even the worldbuilder in city shows defense 10 instead of 107)

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes it's more severe than I thought after I found out about my neg traits. Take a look at this screenshot, with the defense hover analysis you provided not so long ago... don't know why this happened after a recalc, and no matter how far back I go to saves it's the same!!! I think all the world has this now, not just me, but it is more severe to me due to my neg traits. I almost lost a city to a barb stack a while back, my neighbor lost 2 to them!!! They didn't even need siege weaponry

(EDIT: even the worldbuilder in city shows defense 10 instead of 107)

Interestingly, the hover shows that the defense is probably what it should be. If you're looking at it with gunpowder units selected, it often won't show much of the defense because much of it gets ignored, which is something I've been meaning to put an end to for a while. Something's odd about defense itself it seems, not so much a recalc problem specifically. I'll have to look into it soon.

 

[tantoniou]

If you're looking at it with gunpowder units selected, it often won't show much of the defense because much of it gets ignored, which is something I've been meaning to put an end to for a while.

I didn't know that.

I remembered why I did the recalc, when I started the game I forgot about the min_city_range setting that I set to 3, around the start of the ancient era I changed it, and then did a restart & recalc cause I didn't know if it would get the setting...so don't know if this did something.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I remembered why I did the recalc, when I started the game I forgot about the min_city_range setting that I set to 3, around the start of the ancient era I changed it, and then did a restart & recalc cause I didn't know if it would get the setting...so don't know if this did something.

Doubt it.

 

[tantoniou]

Also, are units supposed to lose xp when they upgrade? I had some law enforcement units with 28xp, they could deal for lots of criminality with the appropriate tech upgrades, but suddenly when I just upgraded them to patrols, they went to 17xp (just right at the previous xp level).

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also, are units supposed to lose xp when they upgrade? I had some law enforcement units with 28xp, they could deal for lots of criminality with the appropriate tech upgrades, but suddenly when I just upgraded them to patrols, they went to 17xp (just right at the previous xp level).

Without the Infinite XP option on, yes.