[Vote] (6-43) City Garrison Damage

[DoveCDog]

Problem: Currently the units garrisoned inside cities take too little damage.

Current: Damage to cities is split between the city and the garrison based on their HP.

Proposal: Damage to cities is split between the city and the garrison based on their CS.

Rationale: City HP scales as the game goes on, but unit HP always remains at 100. This creates a problem, as the later the game goes on, the less damage the garrison takes. CS scales both for units and cities at a similar pace, so with this change the garrison will continue to take a reasonable amount of damage as the game goes on.

EDIT: Adding more details and examples:
Currently the damage formula splits the damage proportionally between City Max HP and 2 * Unit Max HP. Or, in formula:
City damage = Damage * [ CityMaxHP / (CityMaxHP + 2 * UnitMaxHP) ] || Unit damage = 1 - City damage
Proposed damage formula splits the damage proportionally between City CS and Unit CS. Or, in formula:
City damage = Damage * [CityCS / (CityCS + UnitCS)] || Unit damage = 1 - City damage

An example of the problem this proposal aims to address:
Ancient Era
Warrior (8CS, 100HP) garrisoned in City (13CS, 325HP)
Current damage split: 38/62
Proposed damage split: 38/62
Information Era
Mech Infantry(80CS, 100HP) garrisoned in City(109CS, 950HP)
Current damage split: 17/83
Proposed damage split: 42/58


DLL Changes

 

[adan_eslavo]

I noticed in my games that killing Garrisoned unit is a nightmare even in Medieval. I throw on it with you Catapults or Cannons in Renaissance and still he receives almost no Damage. Also I cannot see the difference if Archers (and later Ranged units) get the Accuracy or Barrage, because this does almost nothing to Garrisoned units. And when the Garrisoned unit is an UU like Samurai, then you are screwed.

 

[AndreyK]

That is not my expirience, I think from many recent changes, taking cities has become very easy, especially as I kill garrison. In my last games, siege units, even cannons, not yet field guns, with only 2 promos siege I and II damage cities at 100+ without garrison. I am afraid that this will make games far too easy for human and warmonger AI's.

 

[Stalker0]

That is not my expirience, I think from many recent changes, taking cities has become very easy, especially as I kill garrison. In my last games, siege units, even cannons, not yet field guns, with only 2 promos siege I and II damage cities at 100+ without garrison. I am afraid that this will make games far too easy for human and warmonger AI's.

This. I do think the recent defense nerfs have made city taking easier. Changing how much damage the garrison takes could be a huge swing.

 

[Stalker0]

MAGI: proposal needs to provide the details of how the damage is going to be split. A formula and an example are useful

 

[stii]

It depends how far you are ahead or behind of the AI in tech.

If you are doing small amount of chip damage to a city you don't deal much to garrisoned unit but if you are deal lots of damage the ratio is far better.

 

[AndreyK]

this was as I play immortal, same or close to in tech level, 2-3 techs difference in middle of renaissance.

 

[DoveCDog]

MAGI: proposal needs to provide the details of how the damage is going to be split. A formula and an example are useful

I propose to use the same formula that is used now, just to replace the variables.

If that formula is not available, then in that case I propose the following formula:
City damage = [City CS / (City CS + Unit CS)] * Damage
Unit damage = [Unit CS / (City CS + Unit CS)] * Damage

EDIT: Example in case the formula is not available: 8CS warrior is garrisoned inside a city giving it 13CS. Warrior would take 38% of damage, City would take 62% of damage.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@DoveCDog How would it look like with current factors? For a comparison?
Add this to main post, please.

 

[DoveCDog]

@DoveCDog How would it look like with current factors? For a comparison?
Add this to main post, please.

I don't know what the current formula is, so I can't say. I don't want to add it to the main post until a programmer can confirm what the formula is.
Assuming it is the same, then IIRC cities have 300HP at the start of the game, so it would be a 25/75 split. Towards the end of the game cities have over 1000HP so it becomes more like a 10/90 split.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I don't know what the current formula is, so I can't say. I don't want to add it to the main post until a programmer can confirm what the formula is.
Assuming it is the same, then IIRC cities have 300HP at the start of the game, so it would be a 25/75 split. Towards the end of the game cities have over 1000HP so it becomes more like a 10/90 split.

It can be felt.

 

[Rekk]

The garrison currently takes:
GarrisonDamageTaken= Damage * 2*GarrisonMaxHP / (CityMaxHP + 2*GarrisonMaxHP)
The city takes:
CityDamageTaken = Damage - GarrisonDamageTaken

 

[DoveCDog]

The garrison currently takes:
GarrisonDamageTaken= Damage * 2*GarrisonMaxHP / (CityMaxHP + 2*GarrisonMaxHP)
The city takes:
CityDamageTaken = Damage - GarrisonDamageTaken

Thanks! I realize now it would not be good to just swap HP for CS as the multiplier would result in garrisons taking more damage than cities, which is not what I am proposing. I am editing the OP now with the formula and examples

 

[Rekk]

Thanks! I realize now it would not be good to just swap HP for CS as the multiplier would result in garrisons taking more damage than cities, which is not what I am proposing. I am editing the OP now with the formula and examples

it would essentially be a direct swap of 2*GarrisonHealth/CityHealth with GarrisonCS/CityCS.

 

[DoveCDog]

it would essentially be a direct swap of 2*GarrisonHealth/CityHealth with GarrisonCS/CityCS.

yes exactly

 

[azum4roll]

Towards the end of the game cities have over 1000HP so it becomes more like a 10/90 split.

When cities get that much HP, you already have planes to bombard from everywhere, and missiles to snipe the garrison.

 

[ilteroi]

not sure what the point is. there are x+y hitpoints either way ... so we're looking at secondary effects like effective heal rate mostly?

that said are you talking about base CS or would you include promotions?

also, i think the idea with the hitpoints was that it would be self-balancing (damaged unit takes less damage) and allow the garrison to last about as long as the city.

 

[Rekk]

also, i think the idea with the hitpoints was that it would be self-balancing (damaged unit takes less damage) and allow the garrison to last about as long as the city.

It's based on Max HP, so that doesn't work. Also, this proposal wants the garrison to die before the city does.

When cities get that much HP, you already have planes to bombard from everywhere, and missiles to snipe the garrison.

We added these things as a side effect of garrisons effectively being invulnerable without them.

 

[ilteroi]

It's based on Max HP, so that doesn't work. Also, this proposal wants the garrison to die before the city does.

true about max HP ... guess we got confused at some point.

anyway if we want to use CS for distributing damage we should also think about the garrisons' impact on the city CS. double dipping doesn't make sense.

 

[Enginseer]

I will sponsor this.