Civ 5: Civilizations/Leaders Wanted!

[awesome]

Why does the Impact Chariot replace a Swordsman? It doesn't make any sense

Yeah, a melee chariot makes more sense replacing a chariot. Like the reverse of the ranged knights.

 

[Kurtbob]

One of the unsung improvements of BNW is that iron now reveals before Iron Working. And none should prove happier about this than the Hittites. Here's the post-PNW edition:

HITTITIES
Leader: Hattusili III or Suppiluliuma.
Capital: Hattusha.

Unique Ability: Iron Primacy. Begin the game with Bronze Working technology. After researching Iron Working, every non-occupied city provides 1 iron gains a free forge.
Unique Building: Feral Gate. Replaces Monument. As monument. Also, nearby city-states are more likely to be afraid and offer 50% more tribute.
Unique Unit: Impact Chariot. Requires Iron Working, replaces Swordsman. Requires 1 iron.
Cost: 75
Strength: 14
Moves: 3
The impact chariot can move after attacking, and if it kills an enemy unit, it can attack again with +10% combat strength. Like other chariots, it suffers a movement penalty when entering rough terrain and does not receive defensive terrain bonuses.

UA. Why not just give them Mining instead of Bronze Working? Or just reveal Iron at mining/beginning of the game?

UB: Interesting idea. How near is near? 10? 20 hexes away?

other ideas: You could introduce a forge UB that can be built earlier (Iron Working; Bronze Working would be too early...but you never know) if you want to emphasize their early iron innovations. A UI that can only be built on/near Iron (Copper too?) would also be interesting.

UU: Why remove the the swordsman with a unit that is penalized the same way as a chariot? Just replace the chariot.

 

[Kurtbob]

Final civ to break up India (Chola, Mauryan, Mughal)

The Mughals
Leader: Abu Akbar
Capital: Agra / Lahore / Delhi (Agra is the best choice, but the other two would also work)

UA: The Din-i-ilahi Court - The great person points produced by wonders are doubled. For every religion in a city that city receives +1 local (doubled in Capital).

Spoiler :

(wiki)The Dīn-i Ilāhī was a syncretic religion propounded by the Mughal emperor Akbar the Great in 1582 AD, intending to merge the best elements of the religions of his empire, and thereby reconcile the differences that divided his subjects.[2] The elements were primarily drawn from Islam and Hinduism, but some others were also taken from Christianity, Jainism and Zoroastrianism. (/wiki)

UU: Jaivana Cannon - Same as cannon but begins with Siege Promotion.

Since the Ottomans didn't get any acknowledgment for their massive siege engines in the current game, I would like to give the designation to the Mughals in my idea as sort of a runner up. The unit would act just like any cannon unit but will begin with the Siege Promotion (bonus vs cities and fortified units).

Spoiler :

(wiki)The Jaivana was manufactured during the reign of Maharaja Sawai Jai Singh II (1699–1743) at a foundry in Jaigarh. The barrel is 20.19 foot (6.15 m) in length and weighs 50 tonnes. It has a diameter of 11 inches (280 mm). The barrel has decorations carved on it which depict trees, an elephant scroll and a pair of birds (ducks). It is mounted on wheels and has the mechanism of two back wheels mounted on roller pin bearings, to turn it 360° and fire in any direction. A tin shed was built to protect the cannon against weather. The cannon had a range of 22 miles and used 50 kilograms (110 lb) balls.(/wiki)

Spoiler :

UB: Sandstone Fort - Replaces Castle. 7 ; +25 HP. +25% production of ranged/seige units. +2 tourism after flight.

Just a replacement of the Mughal Fort in game. I got rid of the culture bonus and replaced it with a ranged unit production bonus. It fits since cannon forges were known to be housed within forts.

 

[phaethon16]

I know this is from a while back, but I realized something about your Chola UA; it's a little too similar to Carthage. Carthage gives all cities +%50 naval trade route range automatically, since all of their coastal cities have free harbors. Sorry I realized this late, but I played Carthage for the first time today and it hit me. As for the Mughal civ, the UA is a little underpowered. Realistically, you will only have 3 or 4 religions in a city maximum, and while 4 extra happiness per city is good, it's a little on the weak side as the main centerpiece for your UA. The second part of the ability is good though. You should also give the UU a little something more. The UB is good though. The problem I have with the civ though is that you said you want it to be tall, but the way it looks is that it will be a wide, conquest-oriented empire with some religious benefits. It looks good that way, but if you want it to be tall, make it a little less militaristic. It's generally fine as it is, but if you want it to be a tall civ, then you should change it.

 

[Kurtbob]

I know this is from a while back, but I realized something about your Chola UA; it's a little too similar to Carthage. Carthage gives all cities +%50 naval trade route range automatically, since all of their coastal cities have free harbors. Sorry I realized this late, but I played Carthage for the first time today and it hit me. As for the Mughal civ, the UA is a little underpowered. Realistically, you will only have 3 or 4 religions in a city maximum, and while 4 extra happiness per city is good, it's a little on the weak side as the main centerpiece for your UA. The second part of the ability is good though. You should also give the UU a little something more. The UB is good though. The problem I have with the civ though is that you said you want it to be tall, but the way it looks is that it will be a wide, conquest-oriented empire with some religious benefits. It looks good that way, but if you want it to be tall, make it a little less militaristic. It's generally fine as it is, but if you want it to be a tall civ, then you should change it.

You are right about Carthage's harbor ability. Technically the Chola would have more range than Carthage once they built their own Harbors, but its the same ability at the outset of the game which is not what I wanted I'll have to change that small part to something similar.

I will scratch out the tall part of the description. Not sure why I wrote it, I guess I have it in my head wonders = tall. I will alter the UA a bit so it is stronger, but I think the happiness boost could be rather powerful on its own. The doubled great person points would be very powerful early on, but pieter out once specialists appear.

I was going for a Civ that benefited from having multiple religions without religion really being the focus of the UA. More of a perk really. They would also be defensive in the medieval era (Castle UB that helps you produce ranged units faster) and offensive in the Renaissance (Castle UB again that helps you produce your unique UU).

What did you think of the Mauryans?

As always, thanks for posting

 

[steveg700]

Final civ to break up India (Chola, Mauryan, Mughal)

The Mughals
Leader: Abu Akbar
Capital: Agra / Lahore / Delhi (Agra is the best choice, but the other two would also work)

UA: The Din-i-ilahi Court - The great person points produced by wonders are doubled. For every religion in a city that city receives +1 local (doubled in Capital).

Spoiler :

(wiki)The Dīn-i Ilāhī was a syncretic religion propounded by the Mughal emperor Akbar the Great in 1582 AD, intending to merge the best elements of the religions of his empire, and thereby reconcile the differences that divided his subjects.[2] The elements were primarily drawn from Islam and Hinduism, but some others were also taken from Christianity, Jainism and Zoroastrianism. (/wiki)

UU: Jaivana Cannon - Same as cannon but begins with Siege Promotion.

Since the Ottomans didn't get any acknowledgment for their massive siege engines in the current game, I would like to give the designation to the Mughals in my idea as sort of a runner up. The unit would act just like any cannon unit but will begin with the Siege Promotion (bonus vs cities and fortified units).

Spoiler :

(wiki)The Jaivana was manufactured during the reign of Maharaja Sawai Jai Singh II (1699–1743) at a foundry in Jaigarh. The barrel is 20.19 foot (6.15 m) in length and weighs 50 tonnes. It has a diameter of 11 inches (280 mm). The barrel has decorations carved on it which depict trees, an elephant scroll and a pair of birds (ducks). It is mounted on wheels and has the mechanism of two back wheels mounted on roller pin bearings, to turn it 360° and fire in any direction. A tin shed was built to protect the cannon against weather. The cannon had a range of 22 miles and used 50 kilograms (110 lb) balls.(/wiki)

Spoiler :

UB: Sandstone Fort - Replaces Castle. 7 ; +25 HP. +25% production of ranged/seige units. +2 tourism after flight.

Just a replacement of the Mughal Fort in game. I got rid of the culture bonus and replaced it with a ranged unit production bonus. It fits since cannon forges were known to be housed within forts.

This is good. I was thinking of a Mughal civ myself, and this hews close to it. Indeed, much of what went into my Khmer idea was considered for them as well. They are too are builders extraordinaire. Certainly their cannons were definitive and worthy of status as UU's.

My ultimate build will probably allow them some benefit for spending large amounts of gold, or give them some profit benefit from captured cities. That last mechanic is sorely missing from the game, with Songhai and Assyria being the two that actually make capturing cities extra-rewarding.

 

[steveg700]

UA. Why not just give them Mining instead of Bronze Working? Or just reveal Iron at mining/beginning of the game?

UB: Interesting idea. How near is near? 10? 20 hexes away?

other ideas: You could introduce a forge UB that can be built earlier (Iron Working; Bronze Working would be too early...but you never know) if you want to emphasize their early iron innovations. A UI that can only be built on/near Iron (Copper too?) would also be interesting.

UU: Why remove the the swordsman with a unit that is penalized the same way as a chariot? Just replace the chariot.

For a long time it was free Mining. I changed it in the post-BNW revision so that they'd conveniently spot iron from turn 1. I'll probably switch it back.

As for the Feral Gates, thanks for the compliment. It was either going to be that, or it would slap a big penalty on barbarians coming within 3 tiles of the city. As for how near, probably around 8 tiles (i.e. the operational distance for aircraft), or maybe 10 (the range for religious pressure). I think +50% is probably too much for a tribute, so probably will knock it down to +33%.

I considered adding a bloomery UB as a barracks replacement that gave a little production boost. Opinions?

As for the Impact Chariot, and went back and forth on that. I obviously wanted to keep up the iron theme and wanted the UU to use iron as its resource, and it didn't seem to make sense to have two iron-based melee units, especially if the unique one isn't even on the iron branch of the tech tree, but rather stuck up in the horse branch. Since the Hittites didn't actually have swordsmen (they used spears, even the guys in the chariot), just to swapping them out seemed to work fine. Not sure what you mean about being penalized the same way as a chariot. Since it's not a horse unit, it's not penalized again spearmen.

 

[phaethon16]

The Mauryan civ is fine. I had a list of comments, but I rethought them all and the explained themselves.

 

[Kurtbob]

For a long time it was free Mining. I changed it in the post-BNW revision so that they'd conveniently spot iron from turn 1. I'll probably switch it back.

As for the Feral Gates, thanks for the compliment. It was either going to be that, or it would slap a big penalty on barbarians coming within 3 tiles of the city. As for how near, probably around 8 tiles (i.e. the operational distance for aircraft), or maybe 10 (the range for religious pressure). I think +50% is probably too much for a tribute, so probably will knock it down to +33%.

I considered adding a bloomery UB as a barracks replacement that gave a little production boost. Opinions?

As for the Impact Chariot, and went back and forth on that. I obviously wanted to keep up the iron theme and wanted the UU to use iron as its resource, and it didn't seem to make sense to have two iron-based melee units, especially if the unique one isn't even on the iron branch of the tech tree, but rather stuck up in the horse branch. Since the Hittites didn't actually have swordsmen (they used spears, even the guys in the chariot), just to swapping them out seemed to work fine. Not sure what you mean about being penalized the same way as a chariot. Since it's not a horse unit, it's not penalized again spearmen.

I think a range of ten is fine for the Feral Gate. Anything beyond that is OP, anything under it is UP.

I have seen Bloomery ideas a lot for the Hitties. A production boost would be nice, but what sort? Here are some ideas to play around with:

Barracks replacements:
+25% production of melee units
+25% production of units that require strategic resources
Melee units receive new promotion (something along the lines of 'iron blah blah')

Forge replacements:
Can be built after discovering Bronze working.
Additional hammers on Copper (and other resources)

UI:
Built next to Iron or Copper. Additional hammers and culture.
Built on Iron, Copper, Silver, Gold. Doubles quantity. Additional hammers. (no bonuses from Chemistry, Order).

As for the swordsman replacement, you gave the unit the inherent penalties of a chariot...the movement through difficult terrain penalty and not having a defensive bonus. It is stronger than a horseman but isn't as mobile (difficult terrain penalty and one less movement). It also just feels awkward having an ancient civ with a classical era UU. I think you should just replace the chariot archer and keep everything else the same about it (maybe 4 movement though).

 

[Kurtbob]

Updating my India Civ ideas. What do you fanatics think? Are they a good representation of India as a whole?

Maurya
Leader: Ashoka
Capital: Patalipurta (North East India)

Unique Unit: War Elephant - Same as current war elephant.

Unique Building: Pillar of Ashoka - Replaces Monument. +2. +10% growth in city while you are at peace.

Unique Ability: Land of Ahimsa - When a Mauryan great prophet is born the Mauryans receive 33% of the faith cost back.

Goal of civ: A civ given the incentive to be peaceful (UB) and a nice bonus after spawning a great prophet. The UU will help defend them very early on. A nice tall religious civ.

Chola
Leader: Raja Raja
Capital: Gangaikonda

Unique Building: Gopuram. Replaces Temple. +2 . Religious buildings purchased with faith in this city produce +1 tourism. The Gopuram produces +2 tourism upon discovering Flight. 2 gold maintenance.

Unique Unit: Thirisadai. Replaces Tririeme. Begins with Boarding Party I. While positioned on a naval trade route connected to/from your civilization, that trade route may not be pillaged by barbarian units (stays with unit after upgrade).

Unique Ability: Sungu. Your naval units receive a 33% combat bonus while within your borders. When your sea trade route is plundered, there is a 50% chance that the cargo ship will be returned to its home city to be reassigned instead of being lost.

Goal of civ: The Chola have a strong defensive naval flavor with a boost to tourism from its UB. Would make a nice naval turtle trade civ.

Mughals
Leader: Abu Akbar
Capital: Agra / Lahore / Delhi (Agra is the best choice, but the other two would also work)

UA: The Din-i-ilahi Court - The great person points produced by wonders are doubled (tripled after the discovery of Architecture). For every religion in a city that city receives +1 local

UU: Jaivana Cannon - Same as cannon but begins with Siege Promotion.

UB: Sandstone Fort - Replaces Castle. 7 ; +25 HP. +25% production of ranged/seige units. +2 tourism after flight.

Goal of civ: A civ given the incentive to produce wonders to take advantage of the additional great person points and the ability to expand in the late medieval/early renaissance due to its UU and UB.

 

[awesome]

Also keep in mind that even though the huns have a horse theme, their horse unit doesn't require horses.

 

[steveg700]

I think a range of ten is fine for the Feral Gate. Anything beyond that is OP, anything under it is UP.

I have seen Bloomery ideas a lot for the Hitties. A production boost would be nice, but what sort? Here are some ideas to play around with:

Barracks replacements:
+25% production of melee units
+25% production of units that require strategic resources
Melee units receive new promotion (something along the lines of 'iron blah blah')

Forge replacements:
Can be built after discovering Bronze working.
Additional hammers on Copper (and other resources)

Well, if the bloomery comes at bronze working, it could be a barracks replacement.

+15% XP
+2 hammers
Provides 1 iron

As for the swordsman replacement, you gave the unit the inherent penalties of a chariot...the movement through difficult terrain penalty and not having a defensive bonus. It is stronger than a horseman but isn't as mobile (difficult terrain penalty and one less movement). It also just feels awkward having an ancient civ with a classical era UU. I think you should just replace the chariot archer and keep everything else the same about it (maybe 4 movement though).

The awkwardness is due not to this particular design, but to iron working's placement on the tech tree, which seems to contend that the ancient world didn't have iron (and that steel didn't come around until the middle ages, and that cities built near jungles got way more use out of universities than the rest of us, etc).

However, I suppose if we give out extra iron through the UA or a bloomery UB, then having a unit that uses iron and comes in the ancient era before swordsmen would then actually be attractive.

Also keep in mind that even though the huns have a horse theme, their horse unit doesn't require horses.

Yes, the Huns represent a huge series of bunts on the part of the devs. So, among other pecuiarities, you have a horse-focused civ that doesn't need its horses for its UU. When that happens, you can opt to fall into one of two schools of thought:

"Well, an official bunt is still a bunt."

or

"Well, an official bunt is still official."

 

[Kurtbob]

Well, if the bloomery comes at bronze working, it could be a barracks replacement.

+15% XP
+2 hammers
Provides 1 iron

However, I suppose if we give out extra iron through the UA or a bloomery UB, then having a unit that uses iron and comes in the ancient era before swordsmen would then actually be attractive.

This might be quite attractive! Why not make a Chariot UU that replaces the spearman and requires iron? Having a UA that starts you with mining + having two uniques open at bronze working = a dangerous early rush civ.

 

[awesome]

Or maybe just give them a swordsman that's available at bronze working? And maybe a weak promotion so it's still a little better than the normal swordsman. Or just a small bonus vs melee that doesn't pass on? Like 10%?

They did have swordsmen, by the way:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=61392

 

[steveg700]

Aweomse feedback. Replacing barracks with bloomery and chariot archer with impact chariot sounds like a winner.

However, giving out the bloomery would make giving out free early forges excessive and kinda redundant. Need to come up with another UA.

Could be something like:

Primeval War Machine: Start the game with Mining technology. After researching a tehnology that unlocks a military unit, receive a culture boost and instantly produce one of that unit near one of your cities. Receive extra culture and a second unit if you are the first to research the technology.

 

[phaethon16]

That's a little too good. I think your original idea had a better theme. Receiving free units is good, but if you made for every military unit, then it's a little OP, especially if you can get two free units then it really is OP. It would be less OP if it applied to a certain type of unit, like melee units, or if it was limited to a certain part of the game, like the ancient-medieval eras.

 

[steveg700]

Mughals
Leader: Abu Akbar
Capital: Agra / Lahore / Delhi (Agra is the best choice, but the other two would also work)

UA: The Din-i-ilahi Court - The great person points produced by wonders are doubled (tripled after the discovery of Architecture). For every religion in a city that city receives +1 local

UU: Jaivana Cannon - Same as cannon but begins with Siege Promotion.

UB: Sandstone Fort - Replaces Castle. 7 ; +25 HP. +25% production of ranged/seige units. +2 tourism after flight.

Goal of civ: A civ given the incentive to produce wonders to take advantage of the additional great person points and the ability to expand in the late medieval/early renaissance due to its UU and UB.

Like I posted earlier, the Mughals are certainly a great candidate for a wonder focus. How about something that focuses on their extravagance, like the ability to buy great persons? At least a couple of types, like engineers and artists?

Giving a cannon the siege promo always seemed a bit odd to me. I mean, they already get, what, +200% vs cities? I'd be inclined to just make them stronger outright.

 

[steveg700]

That's a little too good. I think your original idea had a better theme. Receiving free units is good, but if you made for every military unit, then it's a little OP, especially if you can get two free units then it really is OP. It would be less OP if it applied to a certain type of unit, like melee units, or if it was limited to a certain part of the game, like the ancient-medieval eras.

I'm not in love with it, but you really think one auto-built unit is OP? Well, how about this:

Pioneers of Warfare: Begin the game with Mining technology. After researching a technology which reveals a strategic resource, receive a culture boost (receive a bigger boost based on how many other civilizations have yet to discover the tech). After researching a technology that unlocks a resource-based unit, gain one of that unit instantly if you have the appropriate resource.

Before BNW, this wouldn't work for iron units. Hurray, BNW!


Another way to go is to take the feral gate ability and blow it up into a UA.

Iron-Fisted Overlords: City-state tribute options are expanded to include demanding local treasures (gain an artifact), expertise (an available specialist slot in the capital is filled by a citizen from the CS), territorial concessions (acquire tiles from a bordering CS), knowledge (gain a science boost), or political hostages (the CS cannot declare war for 30 turns even if an ally does). Each unique demand costs -30 influence and can be made only once per city-state.

Of course, you can only demand tribute from a CS once in a while, so this doesn't get out-of-hand. Also, it puts them in contention with all the other civ's that offer protection pledges, not to mention the likes of CS conquerors like Austria, Venice, and the Mongols. Maybe have the different demand types unlock through the tech tree. I like the idea. Maybe for a different civ tho' (too bad all the prime choices are already taken).

 

[phaethon16]

I like Pioneers of Warfare, the best. My reasoning is that now that you've limited what free units you can get and that you can't two for one tech, then it's more balanced. The reason I thought it was a little OP was because while it doesn't exactly encourage your cities to be unproductive, I thought it gave too many units to just be a supplement. So, you could theoretically have really high science and never build a military, because if you're one or two free units every other tech then that stacks up to a large number. So, now that it's limited to resource-based units, it makes more sense with the theme of Hittite iron-working (though other resources are included) and you're limited to one unit, so now the UA truly is a supplement to your playstyle, rather than just a new way to have a lot of units without producing any. I like it more than Iron Overlords just because I really do like that theme of associating the Hittites with strategic resources and the military, and while Iron Overlords sort of does that, I think Pioneers of Warfare does it better.

 

[steveg700]

I like Pioneers of Warfare, the best. My reasoning is that now that you've limited what free units you can get and that you can't two for one tech, then it's more balanced. The reason I thought it was a little OP was because while it doesn't exactly encourage your cities to be unproductive, I thought it gave too many units to just be a supplement. So, you could theoretically have really high science and never build a military, because if you're one or two free units every other tech then that stacks up to a large number. So, now that it's limited to resource-based units, it makes more sense with the theme of Hittite iron-working (though other resources are included) and you're limited to one unit, so now the UA truly is a supplement to your playstyle, rather than just a new way to have a lot of units without producing any. I like it more than Iron Overlords just because I really do like that theme of associating the Hittites with strategic resources and the military, and while Iron Overlords sort of does that, I think Pioneers of Warfare does it better.

Your reasoning is rock-solid. It was a good idea to limit the free unit.

I actually took Iron-Fisted Overlords and suggested in another thread in this forum for alternate an alternate Japan UA ("Obedience to the Shogunate"). While I was doing that, I thought of another UA that could a civ like the Hittites. My thinking was, how about Venice in reverse?

Rule of Iron: Cannot build caravans or cargo ships, and cannot receive trade routes from other civilizations. Captured cities experience do not experience anarchy or incur a science penalty, and generate +10% gold and production.

So whereas Venice is making trade routes and surviving through diplomacy, the Hittites are driven to conquer in order to truly thrive.