Civ 5: Civilizations/Leaders Wanted!

[GenjiKhan]

Tweaked Israel ideas.

Ancient - A bit gamey, but fun. Places emphasis on Great Prophets.
Civ: Israel
Leader: Moses (a stretch)
UA: Promised Land - Lose 50% when you produce a Great Prophet (instead of 100%) prior to the Industrial Age.
UU: Ark of the Covenant (based off of Nyanko's idea) - Great Prophet replacement. Begins with Terror (-10% combat rating to adjacent enemy units). New Religious action (4 total uses): All adjacent enemy units take a 15 attack. Recieve faith from defeated units adjacent to the Ark.
UU: Maccabee (Sophocles' idea): Replaces Swordman. Has 16 rather then 14 and cities captured by a Maccabee convert to that player's region, if they have one.

I like this idea of UA and the UU . Perhaps you could change the name of the Great Prophet UU to "Nevi'im" . Also,I'd prefer "Maccabee" as an UU than Canaanite warrior,but I'd change the conversion force to become similar to the missionary force .

 

[Nyanko]

I like this idea of UA and the UU . Perhaps you could change the name of the Great Prophet UU to "Nevi'im" . Also,I'd prefer "Maccabee" as an UU than Canaanite warrior,but I'd change the conversion force to become similar to the missionary force .

Yeah, Maccabee is a better choice, because, technically, the Phoneticians were Canaanites too. Canaanite is just too broad a brush.

 

[Liex]

How is everything here? Especially the double gold bonus and the Ribauldequin unit with its balancing act of bonuses and penalties.

The Carrack is a must, indeed. I'd favor the Caçador over the Ribauldequin, especially because I couldn't find any information about the later. IIRC, they were the Portuguese unique cannon in AOE III, but I can't find anything relating them to the Portuguese.

But I would favor some sort of Feitoria UB/UI over the Caçadores; if the Portuguese are to be added, they should be as different as possible from the Spanish, but 2 UU (one of them replacing the musketman) and an "explore = gold" UA doesn't help.

But I do agree the UA should involve City-States somehow. Through bullying and alliances, the Portuguese established a vast net of Client States. They also could have some sort of bonus toward Great Admirals and/or Great Merchants.

Civ: Israel
Leader: David
UA: Promised Land - Lose 50% when you produce a Great Prophet (instead of 100%) prior to the Industrial Age.
UU: Maccabee (Sophocles' idea): Replaces Swordman. Has 16 rather then 14 and cities captured by a Maccabee convert to that player's region, if they have one.
UB: Synagogue: Replaces Temple. Recieve +1 on tiles that yield 3+.

I liked this mix. Perhaps the Promised Land UA could have something like +1 Movement for Settlers and/or Religious Units as well.

 

[Kurtbob]

You could mix and match these ideas for funs.
The Arc of the Covenant idea came from reading a tale about how the ancient israelites carried their arc into battle, before it was captured by the Philistines. The arc served a purpose similar to the great generals of CiV leading and inspiring their armies, and according to legend, smiting its foes with pestelence and such. Maybe add a line, 'Will deal 50 damage to any unit that destroys the Arc', to represent the plauges that befell the Philistines after its capture (according to the tales). But to be fair, i think it would be a better Great General replacement than a Great Prophet replacement, since Prophets are a big part of ancient Judaism.

Are you suggesting a Great General that can spread religion (has religious actions) and has the Terror promotion? I'm quite partial to the idea of a Great Prophet UU. With the ancient UA (which I agree with Liex could use a +1 movement bonus to religious units which would boost the UU further) Great Prophets will be produced rapidly (if the player so chooses). They won't lose their normal functions as Prophets so it's the role you choose for them that determines if they act as Prophets or God's Wrath.

@GhenjiKhan: Nevi'im is a good replacement name since it has a much broader use. Confused though. Should it be Navi or Nevi'im? Navi appears to mean prophet while Nevi'im refers to a text. Am I wrong?

@everyone else:
1. Canaanite Warrior and Modern Israel will be scratched.
2. Maccabee for the UU for both Ancient and Classical/Medieval Israel.

Ancient Israel
Leader: Moses (Do you think this is a good Leader?)
UA: Promised Land - Lose 50% of your total when you produce a Great Prophet (instead of 100%) prior to the Industrial Age. Religious units have +1 movement.
UU1: Maccabee - Replaces Swordman. Has 16 (+2 over the swordsman) and a 1000 (same as a Missionary) conversion occurs in cities captured by a Maccabee.
UU2: Nevi'im: Great Prophet replacement. Begins with Terror (-10% combat rating to adjacent enemy units). Recieve faith from defeated units adjacent to the Ark. New Religious action (4 total uses): All adjacent enemy units take a 15 attack.

Classical/Medieval Israel
Leader: David
UA: Dispora - Religion spread 50% farther and 25% slower. You have line of sight in cities with 3+ followers of your religion.
UU: Maccabee - Replaces Swordman. Has 16 (+2 over the swordsman) and a 1000 (same as a Missionary) conversion occurs in cities captured by a Maccabee.
UB: Synagogue: Replaces Temple. Recieve +1 on tiles that yield 3+.

I'm personally liking the Ancient Israel idea simply for it's gamey elements. I think the Classical/Medieval Israel is pretty solid though. What do you guys/gals think? How can these ideas be mixed and matched for an amazing Israel Civ? Or should there be alternative ideas not present here?

 

[chrissifniotis]

The Carrack is a must, indeed. I'd favor the Caçador over the Ribauldequin, especially because I couldn't find any information about the later. IIRC, they were the Portuguese unique cannon in AOE III, but I can't find anything relating them to the Portuguese.

But I would favor some sort of Feitoria UB/UI over the Caçadores; if the Portuguese are to be added, they should be as different as possible from the Spanish, but 2 UU (one of them replacing the musketman) and an "explore = gold" UA doesn't help.

But I do agree the UA should involve City-States somehow. Through bullying and alliances, the Portuguese established a vast net of Client States. They also could have some sort of bonus toward Great Admirals and/or Great Merchants.

I can't deny that a good deal of the info was based from the AoE3 history, but I remember finding a Wikipedia page for the Ribauldequin. I don't like the idea of another Musketman UU either, I personally like the cannon and carrack, mainly because there are very few unique siege units and something like three or four Musketmen UUs. I did try to add a Feitoria to the idea, but without an easy way to transition the building from Civ4 to 5 I decided to drop it, at least until the expansion. I'll give it another go after work. I understand the argument for the similarities between the UA with Spain's, I just don't see it. The way I see it; Spain gets a boost in gold every time Isabella finds a Natural Wonder, and the yields of them are doubled. By contrast Portugal would get double the gold usually gained from discovering city-states with the ability to see and move further. Portugal stands to get a larger profit of gold, especially in larger maps, from finding city-states than Spain would from natural wonders, while Spain gets a greater overall boost when these wonders fall into their borders. I do like the idea of expanding the city-state bonus some more though, maybe at the cost of the one of the other bonuses. How does a 10% chance of getting a Free Great Merchant/Admiral at discovering a city-state, and increasing to 15% or 20% when being the first to discover one?

 

[Sophocles]

What about a UA that benefits science as well as faith? I think that it would add an interesting and unique extra layer to the faith game for Israel. The idea that I have is something akin to:

UA: Rabbinical Teaching: 25% greater generation in cities with at least 1 Specialist and 10% of converted to

Some other suggestions going off of a UA that benefits both and , and some of the other ideas that people have given are:

UA: Rabbinical Teaching: Birth rate of Great Prophets increased by 100% and retain 50% of your total when a Great Prophet is born and 10% of is converted to (Based on Kurtbob's Promised Land UA; and similar to China's bonus to Great General's.)

UA: Dispora: spreads 50% farther and 50% slower and + 1 for every 3 religious followers*(Based on Kurtbob's Dispora UA, and you would require the player to be very active with spreading their religion in order to gain the most from their UA and would have very good synergy with the Maccabee UU.)

* # of religious followers can change for balance

 

[Kurtbob]

What about a UA that benefits science as well as faith? I think that it would add an interesting and unique extra layer to the faith game for Israel. The idea that I have is something akin to:

UA: Rabbinical Teaching: 25% greater generation in cities with at least 1 Specialist and 10% of converted to

Some other suggestions going off of a UA that benefits both and , and some of the other ideas that people have given are:

UA: Rabbinical Teaching: Birth rate of Great Prophets increased by 100% and retain 50% of your total when a Great Prophet is born and 10% of is converted to (Based on Kurtbob's Promised Land UA; and similar to China's bonus to Great General's.)

UA: Dispora: spreads 50% farther and 50% slower and + 1 for every 3 religious followers*(Based on Kurtbob's Dispora UA, and you would require the player to be very active with spreading their religion in order to gain the most from their UA and would have very good synergy with the Maccabee UU.)

* # of religious followers can change for balance

Sorry if I didn't introduce your UA / UB ideas in my previous posts.

With that said, I do like your ideas. The inclusion of a science bonus in Dispora would be unique since none of the religious Beliefs/Enhancers in the game have a science bonus for spreading your religion, giving Israel a science edge without actually focusing on science. As you said, it would have great synergy with the Maccabee.

I think the 100% great prophet birth rate in Rabbanical Teaching should be stricken, but I do like the science boost after a great prophet is born.

I noticed in your early post you included a Library UB (Hebrew School) that increased faith. Hebrew school sounds a bit...boring to me though(sorry to be blunt), but a UB that focuses on science and faith would be nice. Is there some way to incorporate a science bonus into a Synagogue idea? A temple that produces science? Or am I being narrowminded?

 

[Slvynn]

Sorry if I didn't introduce your UA / UB ideas in my previous posts.

With that said, I do like your ideas. The inclusion of a science bonus in Dispora would be unique since none of the religious Beliefs/Enhancers in the game have a science bonus for spreading your religion, giving Israel a science edge without actually focusing on science. As you said, it would have great synergy with the Maccabee.

I think the 100% great prophet birth rate in Rabbanical Teaching should be stricken, but I do like the science boost after a great prophet is born.

I noticed in your early post you included a Library UB (Hebrew School) that increased faith. Hebrew school sounds a bit...boring to me though(sorry to be blunt), but a UB that focuses on science and faith would be nice. Is there some way to incorporate a science bonus into a Synagogue idea? A temple that produces science? Or am I being narrowminded?

Yashiva is much better for Library UB (is actually something very similar, where pupils reading books and studying Holy Scripts
And i also agree that some science bonuses and turtling (aka Korea) synergies should exist. Modern israel is hi tech country, have one of most advanced anti-ballistic defence systems in the world, very known on hi-tech invention market, and birth of many modern technology discoveries.

 

[Kurtbob]

I do like the idea of expanding the city-state bonus some more though, maybe at the cost of the one of the other bonuses. How does a 10% chance of getting a Free Great Merchant/Admiral at discovering a city-state, and increasing to 15% or 20% when being the first to discover one?

How about this:

UA: While you have a unit within a City-state's borders, your influence cannot decrease; you gain +1 influence a turn for every unit within the city-states borders in excess of the first.
To represent Portugese pressure to trade and influence other peoples.

UU: Naus (Carrack) - Replaces Galleass. Same stats but can enter ocean tiles and has +1 movement. Bonus to bullying City-states.
To represent Portugal's early lead in exlporing the oceans and its highly advanced naval technology. Naus were known for their extra cannons over the basic Carrack (Nau).

UI: Feitorious: Available at Banking. Can be built only on coastal tiles. Yields luxury and strategic resources it is built upon. +15% defense on this tile. +1 . Double heal rate of naval units within two hexes of the Feitorious (even if outside of empire's borders).
To represent Portugal's ability to protect its coast and trade interests through walled settlements/trade posts.

 

[tweedie77]

i worked on a new civ a while back and havent done anything with it for a long time so if anyone wants to pick it up and make it work?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=393109
i posted it there
basically it was the queen of the damned with specific units and abilities but i could never get it to work right. someone run with it lol.

 

[orikos]

Are you suggesting a Great General that can spread religion (has religious actions) and has the Terror promotion? I'm quite partial to the idea of a Great Prophet UU. With the ancient UA (which I agree with Liex could use a +1 movement bonus to religious units which would boost the UU further) Great Prophets will be produced rapidly (if the player so chooses). They won't lose their normal functions as Prophets so it's the role you choose for them that determines if they act as Prophets or God's Wrath.

@GhenjiKhan: Nevi'im is a good replacement name since it has a much broader use. Confused though. Should it be Navi or Nevi'im? Navi appears to mean prophet while Nevi'im refers to a text. Am I wrong?

@everyone else:
1. Canaanite Warrior and Modern Israel will be scratched.
2. Maccabee for the UU for both Ancient and Classical/Medieval Israel.

Ancient Israel
Leader: Moses (Do you think this is a good Leader?)
UA: Promised Land - Lose 50% of your total when you produce a Great Prophet (instead of 100%) prior to the Industrial Age. Religious units have +1 movement.
UU1: Maccabee - Replaces Swordman. Has 16 (+2 over the swordsman) and a 1000 (same as a Missionary) conversion occurs in cities captured by a Maccabee.
UU2: Nevi'im: Great Prophet replacement. Begins with Terror (-10% combat rating to adjacent enemy units). Recieve faith from defeated units adjacent to the Ark. New Religious action (4 total uses): All adjacent enemy units take a 15 attack.

Classical/Medieval Israel
Leader: David
UA: Dispora - Religion spread 50% farther and 25% slower. You have line of sight in cities with 3+ followers of your religion.
UU: Maccabee - Replaces Swordman. Has 16 (+2 over the swordsman) and a 1000 (same as a Missionary) conversion occurs in cities captured by a Maccabee.
UB: Synagogue: Replaces Temple. Recieve +1 on tiles that yield 3+.

I'm personally liking the Ancient Israel idea simply for it's gamey elements. I think the Classical/Medieval Israel is pretty solid though. What do you guys/gals think? How can these ideas be mixed and matched for an amazing Israel Civ? Or should there be alternative ideas not present here?

I like your ideas.
But, why both Ancient and Classical Israel has Maccabee ?

 

[Kurtbob]

I like your ideas.
But, why both Ancient and Classical Israel has Maccabee ?

My original Ancient UU was a bit weak and the name (Canaanite Warrior) represents numerous peoples of the Levant, not just Israel. Plus, it seems everyone likes Sophocle's Maccabee idea.

 

[Sophocles]

Sorry if I didn't introduce your UA / UB ideas in my previous posts.

With that said, I do like your ideas. The inclusion of a science bonus in Dispora would be unique since none of the religious Beliefs/Enhancers in the game have a science bonus for spreading your religion, giving Israel a science edge without actually focusing on science. As you said, it would have great synergy with the Maccabee.

I think the 100% great prophet birth rate in Rabbanical Teaching should be stricken, but I do like the science boost after a great prophet is born.

I noticed in your early post you included a Library UB (Hebrew School) that increased faith. Hebrew school sounds a bit...boring to me though(sorry to be blunt), but a UB that focuses on science and faith would be nice. Is there some way to incorporate a science bonus into a Synagogue idea? A temple that produces science? Or am I being narrowminded?

I think your right when you say that Hebrew school sounds boring, and that Synagogue is the way to go for Israel's UB. Still keeping with it being a Temple replacement (pun not intended*), how about:
UB: Synagogue: Replaces Temple. 2 maintenance. 3 and 10% additional generation into this City

 

[chrissifniotis]

How about this:

UA: While you have a unit within a City-state's borders, your influence cannot decrease; you gain +1 influence a turn for every unit within the city-states borders in excess of the first.
To represent Portugese pressure to trade and influence other peoples.

UU: Naus (Carrack) - Replaces Galleass. Same stats but can enter ocean tiles and has +1 movement. Bonus to bullying City-states.
To represent Portugal's early lead in exlporing the oceans and its highly advanced naval technology. Naus were known for their extra cannons over the basic Carrack (Nau).

UI: Feitorious: Available at Banking. Can be built only on coastal tiles. Yields luxury and strategic resources it is built upon. +15% defense on this tile. +1 . Double heal rate of naval units within two hexes of the Feitorious (even if outside of empire's borders).
To represent Portugal's ability to protect its coast and trade interests through walled settlements/trade posts.

Hm, I'm not a big fan of the entire UA, mainly because the prevention of loss of influence from units is in effect when city states are allied. Coupled with the +1 Influence per unit - 1 per turn, players may build a few units purely for the purpose of stationing units in city states; with 4 units inside the borders you have a friend in 10 turns and an ally in another 10. I would say to add limits to the idea; like units inside the borders cannot affect the influence of friendly city-states and every extra unit adds 1 Influence to allied city-states. I also think a bonus to bullying city-states would be a good idea, but not restricted to just a Carrack ability. The Feitoria will be interesting, I'll do more research on it, but I want to try a radical idea and try to attatch a Great Merchant yield, with a good deal of limitations of course.

 

[Liex]

UU: Armada. Combines the Great Admiral and the Great Merchant into a single unit, replacing them. Moves: 1 ; +3 when embarked.
Empowers nearby naval units and can perform up to 2 different actions before being consumed. Available actions: Repair Fleet, Conduct Trade Mission and Construct a Customs House.

It'd be nice and accurate to have a Feitoria UI replacing the Customs House. In addition to the normal Gold yield, it could grant +1 Gold for each nearby Luxury Resource, and +50% Combat for stationed units. Sadly it'd be extremely overpowered...

Some links: Portuguese Armadas; Vasco da Gama

 

[Kurtbob]

Yashiva is much better for Library UB (is actually something very similar, where pupils reading books and studying Holy Scripts
And i also agree that some science bonuses and turtling (aka Korea) synergies should exist. Modern israel is hi tech country, have one of most advanced anti-ballistic defence systems in the world, very known on hi-tech invention market, and birth of many modern technology discoveries.

Yeshiva certainly sounds better than Hebrew School.

@Sophocles and Slvynn

Yeshiva (Library Replacement) bonus ideas:
1. +1 per three followers of your religion in this city.
2. +3
3. +1 on tiles that yield
4. An artist slot.
5. Recieve when a unit or building is purchased with in this city.
6. This city spreads religion 50% further -OR- faster than normal.
7. Receive a free missionary in this city when built.
8. Your specialists produce +1 in this city.

Synagogue (Temple Replacement) bonus ideas:
1. +1 on tiles that yield 3+
2. +1 on tiles that yield 3+
3. A scientist slot.
4. +1 on tiles that yield
5. -25% cost for units and buildings bought in this city.
6. City is immune to Religious Actions made by other civs.
7. +5
8. May produce faith in this city (like science and gold)

Technically, any of these ideas can be used by one or the other.

I'm really torn between Promised Land + Nevi'im and Dispora + Macaabee (each with a Yeshiva or Synagogue UB). Really good synergies found in both.

 

[GenjiKhan]

UU: Armada. Combines the Great Admiral and the Great Merchant into a single unit, replacing them. Moves: 1 ; +3 when embarked.
Empowers nearby naval units and can perform up to 2 different actions before being consumed. Available actions: Repair Fleet, Conduct Trade Mission and Construct a Customs House.

So,when Portuguese navy gets 200 xp from naval combats,they can spawn a Great Merchant,while if they accumulate the ammounts of point required to spawn a Great Merchant,they can spawn a Great Admiral? With that,Portugal even deserve a worthless UA(like the Mongolia's UA) to avoid being OP . BTW,nice suggestion

 

[Kurtbob]

UU: Armada. Combines the Great Admiral and the Great Merchant into a single unit, replacing them. Moves: 1 ; +3 when embarked.
Empowers nearby naval units and can perform up to 2 different actions before being consumed. Available actions: Repair Fleet, Conduct Trade Mission and Construct a Customs House.

It'd be nice and accurate to have a Feitoria UI replacing the Customs House. In addition to the normal Gold yield, it could grant +1 Gold for each nearby Luxury Resource, and +50% Combat for stationed units. Sadly it'd be extremely overpowered...

A unique customs house would be accurate. How to make it work though....
1. All adjacent tile improvements are maintenance free.
2. +1 to adjacent Water tiles (not rivers. Lakes and Coast)
3. Culture Bomb like Citadel

Crazy UA idea for Portugal: Your Great Merchants can use two actions instead one before they are exhausted. IE you can do two trade missions, build two Customs Houses, or build a customs house and do a trade mission.

 

[Liex]

So,when Portuguese navy gets 200 xp from naval combats,they can spawn a Great Merchant,while if they accumulate the ammounts of point required to spawn a Great Merchant,they can spawn a Great Admiral? With that,Portugal even deserve a worthless UA(like the Mongolia's UA) to avoid being OP . BTW,nice suggestion

Yes, that was the idea, 2 sources of Great Admirals/Merchants. I gave it only 1 Movement Point in land, so it'd take a while to reach far inland CSs to conduct missions. But that's the only downside I could think of, so the the UA and the other UU/UB/UI would need to be balanced.

 

[Liex]

Crazy UA idea for Portugal: Your Great Merchants can use two actions instead one before they are exhausted. IE you can do two trade missions, build two Customs Houses, or build a customs house and do a trade mission.

Still toying with this kind of idea:

UA: Your Great Admirals can also perform actions of a Great Merchant, and vice versa. (Note: Only 1 action and they're consumed)

Another UA component:

UA: Technologies that unlock naval units are researched 33% faster.

Would these 2 together be overpowered?

------
EDIT: Giving the abilities of a Great Admiral to a Great Merchant may not be that interesting. Here's another try, using the UU compiled in the OP:

UA: School of Sagres. Great Admirals can perform an action without being consumed and can conduct trade missions to City-States. Technologies that unlock naval units are researched 33% faster.

UU: Carrack. Galleas replacer. Same attributes and costs.
The Carrack can enter Ocean Tiles earlier, and upon discovering a City-State the Capital receives Great Merchant points. Each Carrack can build a single Feitoria in adjacent land tiles.

UI: Feitoria. Replaces the Customs House. Can be constructed by Great Merchants and Carracks, in owned territory.
Provides +50% Combat bonus to stationed units. Yields +4 Gold (+1 with Economics). +1 Gold for each Luxury Resource within 2 tiles; multiple Feitorias can’t benefit from the same resource.

I guess these features cover a lot of Portuguese historical elements, and they're all interrelated with each other. Don't know if it's balanced or plausible, though.