Civ2 Classic Deity+5 Victory

[mappe]

Hello everyone!

I'm wondering who forum members have beaten deity+5? I bet some have. Did you win the space race or conquered the world or have you done both?

I have never won d+5 in either way, but now I might be in a position to win the space race in my current game. The year is not 1800 yet and I need just Space Flight, Plastics, Laser and Superconductor to launch a space ship. Myself and the Americans are the most sophisticated empires.

I have 80 Freight on way to distant cities and with them I think I can obtain the missing techs one per turn. I also plan to hoard 30000 cash with them so that when I build Apollo Program I can buy all the spaceship pieces in one turn.

The map had very much Ocean squares and in the mid game all good city sites were occupied. That's when I started to make cities in the Antarctic They thrive suprisingly well, just make sure you build it on tundra, not glacier.

-mappe

 

[nerdfighter13]

Welcome!!!

Almost forgot to say, but I have never even won on deity, so I have not won on deity+5.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

I've heard of Deity+, but never heard about anything above that.
Welcome to CFC.

 

[nerdfighter13]

My limited knowledge is that you can change something in the code to add difficulty levels on top of deity.

 

[mappe]

Victory!
The plan worked and I did manage to get to Alpha Centauri first. The last turn was 1778. The freights were worth about 50k so I had plenty of extra cash in the end.

Last turns
I researched superconductor the same turn Apollo Program was constructed. I had about 60 cities so it was possible to construct all the spaceship parts in one turn. The spaceship had 33 structural, 16 component and 3 modules. That turn I researched Nuclear Fusion. Therefore the spaceship flight time was 5.7 years and it was launched immediately.

Late game diplomacy
After the launch Zulus, Eqyptians and Greeks sneak attacked, but they were far enough from my home island and losses were minimal. They refused to talk and make peace even though I controlled the UN. I shared my home island with the Celts. In the early game I allied with them and luckily the alliance lasted till the end. They stole a few technologies and demanded some more, but I always complied with their requests.

Wonders of the world
I managed to build three wonders: Hoover Dam, United Nations and Apollo Program. I also tried to build Magellan's Expedition, but missed it by one turn. Luckily I left the caravans outside the city until i would have had enough in case somebody beats me to it. The United Nations was perhaps the key to success since I didn't wage war until after spaceship launch.

Geography
The world was archipelago type and had lots of ocean. The main competitor, the Americans, had just a dozen of cities in the end. Some other nations had over two dozen but not much more. When the living space ran out, I decided to colonize Antarctic. If the city had a fish square and harbor, it grew to 8 as soon as the first freight was delivered (we love the president day).

Early game strategy
I started as the Indians and had 2 starting techs. The first research goal was the Republic. I decided to let cities riot until they grew to size 2 to accumulate as many science beakers as possible. At size 2 they produced enough trade to keep them happy with 60% luxuries. After republic the goal was Trade, then Magnetism, Democracy, Explosives and Corporation. After Trade the main way of getting techs was with Caravans. All my cities produced either Caravans or Settlers and with caravan trade bonus money I rush built more caravans. City improvements I built were mainly harbors and marketplaces. In the endgame I built some factories. Luxury rate during the whole game was 50% to 80%.

Game settings
The game settings were Deity+5, Barbarian Wrath, Standard rules, Large map, 7 civilizations

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I have never tried levels higher than Deity. Frankly, I do not see the point. The AI does not get any smarter at those levels because those are not part of the original programming. What it does do is skew your happiness towards red and black citizens: you get them faster than before. Since blacks with luxury act the same way blue (content) does, this actually makes the game easier and not harder to beat.

You want a challenge, try custom maps that put you in a disadvantage compared to AI (we have played quite a few of these in GOTMs). Or you could also try the map of earth and start in Hawaii; if that is too tough try New Zealand or Greenland. Or try Deity with one starting settler (disband the second one at the outset). Or try playing at Emperor level. I would argue that Emperor is harder than Deity because the second settler that you automatically get at Deity is a *huge* advantage.

Having said all that, a 1778 launch is a respectable finish. Good job. For more fun, come and join us at the GOTMs.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Early game strategy
I started as the Indians and had 2 starting techs. The first research goal was the Republic. I decided to let cities riot until they grew to size 2 to accumulate as many science beakers as possible.

Well done!

Some things in this quote I don't understand, what do you mean with letting your cities riot and gaining from it? How is rioting cities helping you? They are completely unproductive?

At what size do your cities get its first unhappy citizen at Deity+5?

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

I have never tried levels higher than Deity. Frankly, I do not see the point. The AI does not get any smarter at those levels because those are not part of the original programming. What it does do is skew your happiness towards red and black citizens: you get them faster than before. Since blacks with luxury act the same way blue (content) does, this actually makes the game easier and not harder to beat.

What are black citizens? I've never seen one. You give the blacks luxuries and they act as blue (still being black)?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

What are black citizens? I've never seen one. You give the blacks luxuries and they act as blue (still being black)?

When you first build a city, your first citizen is content (blue). Depending on the level you get a few of these before they turn red (unhappy). At Deity you get one content per city, at Emperor 2, at King 3 .... As your cities grow in size and as you expand (build more cities) the number of your content citizens starts to shrink. One by one your formerly content citizens become unhappy. Eventually all your citizens become unhappy (red). If you keep growing and expanding, blacks start to appear. Blacks count as unhappy in determining whether a city riots or not. They are different from Reds in two ways:

1. In response to martial law (soldiers in the city) and happiness structures (temple, cathedral, ...) they go from black to red (still unhappy).

2. In response to luxuries they go from black to silver (happy) just like blues.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

When you first build a city, your first citizen is content (blue). Depending on the level you get a few of these before they turn red (unhappy). At Deity you get one content per city, at Emperor 2, at King 3 .... As your cities grow in size and as you expand (build more cities) the number of your content citizens starts to shrink. One by one your formerly content citizens become unhappy. Eventually all your citizens become unhappy (red). If you keep growing and expanding, blacks start to appear. Blacks count as unhappy in determining whether a city riots or not. They are different from Reds in two ways:

1. In response to martial law (soldiers in the city) and happiness structures (temple, cathedral, ...) they go from black to red (still unhappy).

2. In response to luxuries they go from black to silver (happy) just like blues.

So black is very unhappy. The hardest setting I've played on is King, can I possibly get blacks here?

I noticed that a city became less happy when I built a new city (Civ II 2.42, Monarchy), so I've suspected that higher number of cities can cause unhappiness. It could be direct linked to increased number of cities, or indirectly linked (meaning that it was the corruption that rose and that in turn affected the happiness).

 

[mappe]

Thank you for the congratulations

In Deity+5 all the citizens start as black after the first few cities have been founded. Before that they are red. Rioting cities accumulate science beakers and food, but not money nor shield production. Even with 60% luxuries the cities did not produce enough trade when size 1 to keep them content because of corruption. I would have had to take the only worker from the field and make him elvis. When the city was size two and produced 3 or more trade after corruption, with 60% luxuries 1 happy citizen appears.

Sir Lancelot: I think it's possible to get blacks at King level, you just need ridiculous amount of cities, maybe close to 200. It depends on the difficulty level riot factor. Riot factor tells you how many cities you can have without extra unhappy citizens. There is a formula how to calculate it, but now I can't remember it.

Ali Ardavan: Maybe some day I'll try GOTM. I'm also considering One City Challenge games. Maybe start at King level and go higher if I beat it.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

Thank you for the congratulations

In Deity+5 all the citizens start as black after the first few cities have been founded. Before that they are red. Rioting cities accumulate science beakers and food, but not money nor shield production. Even with 60% luxuries the cities did not produce enough trade when size 1 to keep them content because of corruption. I would have had to take the only worker from the field and make him elvis. When the city was size two and produced 3 or more trade after corruption, with 60% luxuries 1 happy citizen appears.

Sir Lancelot: I think it's possible to get blacks at King level, you just need ridiculous amount of cities, maybe close to 200. It depends on the difficulty level riot factor. Riot factor tells you how many cities you can have without extra unhappy citizens. There is a formula how to calculate it, but now I can't remember it.

The first citizen is very unhappy?! If real humans were like that, we would either be extinct or be sitting in each our cave and never form civilizations.

If you have a size 2 city and all citizens are black, and you give them a Temple, what happens? The Temple will make both red? So you'll need a Colosseum to make both content (no lux)?

I think the solution to this is Fundamentalism forever.


In regard to number of cities; I rarely have more than 15-20 but I don't play the large maps. 100+ cities are for my games unheard of, even if we count my cities and all AI cities.

 

[mappe]

The temple might not have any effect, since the black hats can be very, very unhappy. It depends on the number of cities in your empire. Temples and other contentments do not really work in D+3 or higher. The only viable choice is luxuries.

Fundamentalism would work, but it is a bad choice at D+5, since it suffers from corruption. It has the same corruption level as Republic. At D+5 even that is very bad for cities far from capital. I think corruption is the main reason why D+ levels are much harder than normal Deity. The AI has also huge production bonuses so it is harder to keep up with it.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

The hardest setting I've played on is King, can I possibly get blacks here?

Sure. But you have to build quite a few cities. I am not sure how many but I would think above 50.

I noticed that a city became less happy when I built a new city (Civ II 2.42, Monarchy), so I've suspected that higher number of cities can cause unhappiness. It could be direct linked to increased number of cities, or indirectly linked (meaning that it was the corruption that rose and that in turn affected the happiness).

It is a direct link. Blue to red to black has nothing to do with corruption and happens the same way even in democracy where there is no corruption. Furthermore, corruption does not rise with number of cities; only their distance from capital matters in governments other than Communism (where corruption is uniform).

Rioting cities accumulate science beakers and food, but not money nor shield production.

Not true. Rioting cities only accumulate food.

Maybe some day I'll try GOTM. I'm also considering One City Challenge games. Maybe start at King level and go higher if I beat it.

You are welcome to play OCC for any GOTM unless it is explicitly forbidden. From time to time we play exclusively OCC GOTMs as well.

If you have a size 2 city and all citizens are black, and you give them a Temple, what happens? The Temple will make both red? So you'll need a Colosseum to make both content (no lux)?

Correct. Compared to reds, blacks need twice as much religion/entertainment to become content and half as much luxuries to become happy. That is why the best way by far to deal with them is through luxuries.

Fundamentalism would work, but it is a bad choice at D+5, since it suffers from corruption. It has the same corruption level as Republic. At D+5 even that is very bad for cities far from capital. I think corruption is the main reason why D+ levels are much harder than normal Deity. The AI has also huge production bonuses so it is harder to keep up with it.

In a regular game corruption in Fundamentalism is much lower than that of a Republic. I never realized corruption is higher at D+ levels. Nor did I know that AI gets extra production bonuses at D+ levels. Those both make a difference.

 

[Sir_Lancelot]

The temple might not have any effect, since the black hats can be very, very unhappy. It depends on the number of cities in your empire. Temples and other contentments do not really work in D+3 or higher. The only viable choice is luxuries.

Fundamentalism would work, but it is a bad choice at D+5, since it suffers from corruption. It has the same corruption level as Republic. At D+5 even that is very bad for cities far from capital. I think corruption is the main reason why D+ levels are much harder than normal Deity. The AI has also huge production bonuses so it is harder to keep up with it.

I thought Fundamentalism had almost no corruption and significantly less than Republic. But as already mentioned I only have experience from the middle difficulty levels. The research under Fundamentalism is halved, but if you steal techs from the AI you don't have to do the work yourself...
But since you don't need lux in Fundamentalism you can maybe make up for the halved research rate by moving all the luxuries into science. I could be wrong but this is what I'm thinking.

And another Fundamentalism bonus is that the AI forgive dirty tricks more easily when you're a Fundamentalist. That's what the Civilopedia says and I guess it includes reactions from stealing techs. I'm not sure how big or small this bonus is though.

The production bonus you speak of, I guess that is the reduced production cost, observed already at King level and probably reduced for each level beyond King. They don't get a shield bonus (higher production) as well on Deity+5? I see at King level that their cost is reduced by 20%. Something that takes me 100 shields to complete (10x10), only takes the AI 80 shields. Each line of shields in the production box is 8 shields wide, and 8x10 shields is 80.
And their food box is only 8 lines deep, my food box is 10 lines. I think each line of food is equal for AI and human.

I noticed that a city became less happy when I built a new city (Civ II 2.42, Monarchy), so I've suspected that higher number of cities can cause unhappiness. It could be direct linked to increased number of cities, or indirectly linked (meaning that it was the corruption that rose and that in turn affected the happiness).

It is a direct link. Blue to red to black has nothing to do with corruption and happens the same way even in democracy where there is no corruption. Furthermore, corruption does not rise with number of cities; only their distance from capital matters in governments other than Communism (where corruption is uniform).

I think it can have something to do with corruption. Because, the more corruption you have the less luxuries for the people.

But I do understand that the more cities I have, the more unhappiness I get. But is this formula equal for all types of government? Do some governments allow a larger number of cities before unhappiness increase? (Except Fundamentalism of course.)

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I've skimmed through this thread and I have a few remarks.

Congratulations on beating Deity plus 5. The only D+5 game I played was a test where I played OCC (which I didn't win). I also played a D+4 succession game a few years ago (check the Stories and Tales forum, and show threads from the beginning -- a lot of games were played at D+3), and I've played a few D+3 games, including at least one succession game (where we restricted trade).

Based on my experience, D+4 is qualitatively the same as D+3; it might be a little tougher, but I couldn't tell you for sure. You use the same strategies for both. The strategies mappe described sound correct.

If you can beat D+5, you should do well enough in the GOTM. Also, you shouldn't have too much trouble picking up the OCC.

Fundamentalism has no corruption at all, despite what the Civlopedia says. It is useful at Deity+, but Democracy can run a high enough luxury rate (at least with trade routes) to keep the civilization happy. Corruption and Waste get worse in Despotism as the level increases, but I don't think that is true for other governments.

At D+3 and beyond (and maybe D+2), the AI finally gets enough bonuses (and the player sufficiently penalized) that you have to give serious thought to the AI, and few wonders are safe. It gets to the point where I don't value Leo's very much just because I don't have enough stuff to be upgraded. These levels are an exercise in running a civilization on shoestrings, which may not be interesting to all people.

Not true. Rioting cities only accumulate food.

Not true. Rioting cities do indeed produce science, but most of the advisers don't tell you that.

 

[Undefeated]

What is D+5?

 

[Magic_gorter]

D+5 Is Deity +5. When playing civ the highest level you can choose is Deity. However it is possible to add extra (higher) difficulty levels. I forgot how to do this but somewhere in this forum it is explained.

 

[Undefeated]

Thanks for that MG, will keep searching

 

[Undefeated]

Why I asked is because the version that I play uses 2 additional advances (i.e. General Relativity, and Quantum Physics) and I was wondering whether the D+2 could be the same.

I have so far been unable to trace the source of the D +1 to D+5 versions.