Civilization 5 and Steam(works)

[PieceOfMind]

On average, a tech support page is probably not even looked at by the average user. While there's no question of it being bad advice (except possibly as interpreted from Senethro's unique perspective ), I can't see this being a very big issue.

If someone wanted to point out the problem to Valve maybe they'd change that page?

 

[ori]

@Senethro: I think we are missing each other in this discussion. This whole thing started when I offered a source for another users' comment not because I was looking for an angle to attack the Steam service. I have been expressly stating that its a Tech Support statement, which I find is bad advice. I did not say or mean that they are stating this to every user. However two points about it are really bad:
1) the very fact that they offer it as advice in case of a problem - they do not recommend a user to be offline while testing this method.
2) the phrasing is very clearly one that states that it is safe to do this - without limiiting this advice.
Thus: most users won't see it. Users that experience problems for any reason may (if they go to their supportwiki site) - and that audience is given really bad advice. As I said multiple times: its a Tech Support failure - I did not say its an exclusive Steam problem, but that its inline with other gaming related Tech Support. But their Tech Support on that site has a very cavalier approach to online safety and have put online a statement that, while not posted in a manner relevant to all users is still phrased as general advice. "It is safe to use no AV while playing with the Steam client" cannot be regarded as good advice, ever, and phrasing it in a manner that does not tell the customer that they absolutely have to change their AV/firewall if there are conflicts with the steam client is not something that should be online at all, much less in a manner phrased to put the customer at ease that once it worked with disabled security they can leave it at that.

I agree that its not a valid point to attack the Steam client - it is a valid argument about the quality of their Tech Support. Also the linked pages together are a valid counterargument to the claims by some users that the client never has any problems with security programs and that if anything the respective games might have problems.

Again to reiterate: the advice in question is an example of bad Tech Supporting, it is phrased as aplying to the general use of the Steam client and is phrased in a manner that is liable to lead users experiencing connection problems to use the Steam client (online) without proper security measures in place.

 

[BammBamm]

...If you feel some option is missing, please let me know, I can still add options, if they are not already covered.

Hi, Ori.

For those of us who’ve already gone “all in”, I’d like to offer-up a few more options for your prestigious poll:

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, even though I am vehemently opposed to VALV^E Corporation's quest for world domination, but please don’t tell my fellow members of the He-Man Steam-Haters club because, were it not for them, I would have no friends at all.

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, even though I would’ve preferred it NOT to have been tied to Steam. This will be my first Steam game – ever – and if there are any hiccups with this transaction, or with the gameplay itself, I promise to spend every waking hour crying about it, here on the Civilization CivFanatics’ Forum.

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, and can think of a few more palatable alternatives to the DRM method that the publisher has chosen to implement, but my passion for Civilization V outweighs my distaste over how 2K intends to protect their intellectual property rights.

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, and have no dog in this fight, but think it’s kind of strange that we’re forced to have an internet connection in order to validate its authenticity.

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, because Civilization V looks very interesting. I’d never paid any attention to the series before and, had the game not been offered via Steam, would likely never even have considered it.

• I have already preordered the game via Steam. It will become a welcome addition to my current library of dozens of Steam-powered titles. I am fully confident that Steam, and other downloadable content delivery systems like it, will become the de facto standard as the industry progresses.

• I have already preordered the game via Steam. I love Civilization IV, am chomping at the bit to play Civ5, don’t give a rat’s ass how it’s delivered, and would prostitute my dead great-grandmother in the exercise yard of a federal penitentiary for the opportunity to add it to my stable of games.

‘Just my ...

 

[Acronym2]

Well BammBamm, that's great! If you would prostitute your dead great grandmother for some silly pc game, then I guess you're just the type of customer Steam is looking for. (Other than that, I really don't get your post as you say you dislike Valve and never followed the Civ series, but bend over backwards in a point by point praise of pre-ordering Civ5 via Steam and lastly state you actually have followed the series and play CivIV.)

However, more to the point: why bother to pre-order a digital download? It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense when you can buy and download anytime on or after the activation date. With a disk, pre-ordering meant you would be sent a copy as soon as the game first shipped but that is a irrelevant when talking about a digital download.

 

[Senethro]

Acronym, you did read his post sufficiently to work out those aren't bullet points of information about him, they're humorous suggestions for more poll options.

If you're desperately wanting to snark someone as your post suggests you do then please do the research first.

Pre-ordering a digital download is sometimes cheaper, can be a guard against your currency being devalued or the effects of ridiculous inflation, and pre-loading with a release date midnight unlock is the fastest way to get the game.

 

[Acronym2]

Acronym, you did read his post sufficiently to work out those aren't bullet points of information about him, they're humorous suggestions for more poll options.

If you're desperately wanting to snark someone as your post suggests you do then please do the research first.

Pre-ordering a digital download is sometimes cheaper, can be a guard against your currency being devalued or the effects of ridiculous inflation, and pre-loading with a release date midnight unlock is the fastest way to get the game.

Oh, I see....it was meant to be like a joke.

Currency devaluation? Inflation? I'm not sure I would agree with you on all that. It seems a simple matter that if one is excited and can't wait to play the new game then one would most likely preorder the download.

In addition, I've been reading the rather interesting security related posts in this thread and I'm glad this topic has surfaced as I think it is an important one. I do not disable security features or AV software to install or run anything. Legitimate Software and games shouldn't really require this and I haven't had any major problems installing and running programs on my computer with all security fully enabled.

 

[BammBamm]

Dear Acronym2,

The purpose of my post was merely to provide a few more alternatives to the ones ori’s already submitted. My vote would be:

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, and have no dog in this fight, but think it’s kind of strange that we’re forced to have an internet connection in order to validate its authenticity.

As to preordering the digital download, I simply wanted to make damned sure I got my order in, before they ran out of available licenses for the super-duper Digital Deluxe Edition.

Plus, I think VALV^E might accidentally crank up the bandwidth knob for us early birds, and place a mandatory ceiling of 64 KB/sec on those of you poor bastards who sit on the fence too long and wait until release day to finally dip your toe in the water.

 

[Acronym2]

Dear Acronym2,

The purpose of my post was merely to provide a few more alternatives to the ones ori’s already submitted. My vote would be:

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, and have no dog in this fight, but think it’s kind of strange that we’re forced to have an internet connection in order to validate its authenticity.

As to preordering the digital download, I simply wanted to make damned sure I got my order in, before they ran out of available licenses for the super-duper Digital Deluxe Edition.

Plus, I think VALV^E might accidentally crank up the bandwidth knob for us early birds, and place a mandatory ceiling of 64 KB/sec on those of you poor bastards who sit on the fence too long and wait until release day to finally dip your toe in the water.

Yes, I see what you were saying now.

I am not neccessarily bashing the people who pre-order digital downloads. I just cannot see the need to have it the second it is released. It is not as if they will run short on copies of the game. It is a digital distribution and Steam will sell to every person who is willing to hand over $49.95. Personally I like to wait awhile after the release for the bugs to be patched and/or some add-ons to come out and purchase everything in one package. (Although in the case of Civ5 I'm not really too keen on Steam.)

I think your speculation on bandwith is interesting and it remains to be seen just what will happen on the activation date.

 

[BammBamm]

Truth be known, and if you can't tell by now, I'm more than just a little excited about delving directly into Sid Meier's Civilization V [FONT=&quot]– [/FONT] ASAP!

And I don't mind playing the part of guinea pig for Firaxis. I'm pretty sure they've beta-tested the dog squeeze out of it, but who knows ... if I run across an anomaly they have yet to, I'll make every effort to let 'em know about it, so you won't ever have to, seein's how I'm such a nice guy & all.

 

[Drakarska]

I'd have to agree about the bandwith. With all those pre-orders, DL speed should be real interesting for those who are salivating to play right off the bat.

 

[BammBamm]

I'd have to agree about the bandwith. With all those pre-orders, DL speed should be real interesting for those who are salivating to play right off the bat.

Out of the kindness of their hearts 2K/Valve should open the floodgates 24 hours earlier for those of us who’ve preordered. In fact, they could allow us to d/l the entire game up to the point of activation. At 12:01AM on 21 September, then all we’d need would be the few bits & bytes to activate that puppy.

Barring that, I’ll simply start the d/l and launch a Huge Terra Epic-timed Civ4 session. By the time I reach the Superconductivity tech, Civ5 should be a few megs shy of a complete download.


Of course, that’s the likely opinion that many of you here have about me:

“So, whaddaya think about that marginal BammBamm poster, here at CivFanatics?”

“Honestly?... I think that guy's a few megs shy of a full download.”
​

 

[Angelscotboi]

Just want to add my bit here.

Dont like Steam. I may even go far as to say I hate it. Mostly because its a mandatory thing; its absolutely required to play games that "need" it. I demand choice.

I had Empire Total War, and Steam gave me a great deal of trouble and grief; and in the end I gave up on it and tossed Empire Total War to the side.

I posted elsewhere my reasons besides the technical problems it caused me (I had random CTDs and computer freezings and I was unable to track down the cause. I am convinced it was Steamworks causing it) in more detail, I will add them here too...
I wouldnt mind it as a download service or update service ala Impulse if it was like Impulse. Non compulsory and non intrusive. But it isnt.

Its intrusive. You are forced to install it even if you dont need it ie for single player only games. It MUST be online so if you have a gaming rig that you keep offline then you are up a total gumtree there.
The "offline" mode is laughable; firstly you have to be ONLINE to set the specific GAME to offline mode (not the Steam program) and you have to do this for every game you have on on steam, secondly periodically Steam demands you go back ONLINE to repeatedly verify your games as well as download updates.
As someone else mentioned it autoupdates which is a good idea on paper but in reality is a massively BAD idea because sometimes Developers release a patch and inadvertantly break something that worked before ie Bethesda breaking VATs (Fallout 3) in its 1.2/1.3 patch or Bioware breaking the dexterity dependant skills in Dragon Age in its 1.1 (or was it 1.2?) patch. So if this happens you cant roll back to a properly working patch on a steamworks dependant game. You are FORCED to stop playing until the problem is fixed - presuming the developer doesnt do a Bethesda on you "la la la theres nothing wrong here la la la".
There is a restricted number of installs (3 I believe) you can do with each game, which is nothing new but its a MASSIVELY stupid idea; I mean EA used to do it and they have now stopped. And if EA stopped doing it it MUST be a bad idea because them lot are notorious for not listening to their customer base. Even worse its only 3 installs, EA had 5 on their games (like Spore).
And finally you can not run a steamworks dependant game without running steamworks. And i thoroughly resent being forced to install a 3rd party program in order to play a game. If its a multiplayer game fine. But i want the option, I dont want to be forced into doing it. Thats what steamworks does. Its a complete waste of system resources.
And as I said I am CONVINCED that it caused my CTDs in Empire Total War.

Just my reasons.

Because of Steam I WONT be buying Civ 5, which is a real shame because I do love Firaxis and the Civ series. But if this is the route they are going down in future I wont ever be buying another Firaxis game.

 

[bjbrains]

It MUST be online so if you have a gaming rig that you keep offline then you are up a total gumtree there.
The "offline" mode is laughable; firstly you have to be ONLINE to set the specific GAME to offline mode (not the Steam program) and you have to do this for every game you have on on steam, secondly periodically Steam demands you go back ONLINE to repeatedly verify your games as well as download updates.

This simply isn't true. Maybe in the past, but I'm literally looking at my list of steam games *right now*. There's not even a button to 'verify'. All your games are verified when they're installed. As to the second one, again, never happened to me, never heard anything of the sort.

There is a restricted number of installs (3 I believe) you can do with each game, which is nothing new but its a MASSIVELY stupid idea; I mean EA used to do it and they have now stopped. And if EA stopped doing it it MUST be a bad idea because them lot are notorious for not listening to their customer base. Even worse its only 3 installs, EA had 5 on their games (like Spore the game we are obstensibly discussing).

That's not true as well. You can install any steam game as much as you like. You can only be logged at once computer at a time with an account though.

And finally you can not run a steamworks dependant game without running steamworks. And i thoroughly resent being forced to install a 3rd party program in order to play a game. If its a multiplayer game fine. But i want the option, I dont want to be forced into doing it. Thats what steamworks does. Its a complete waste of system resources.

You have to run/install third party programs to run any game. Civ 4 had securom, etc. Isn't civ third party software to begin with? It's not 'forced' if it's literally a major part of the game itself. Required is a more correct term, but see above about any game 'requiring' you to do all sorts of things. As to system resources, it's about 50 mb of ram. This web browser uses more than 3x the 'system resources'.

So to summarize: Autopatching is the only legitimate concern that I can find in your post. The other stuff is either unsubstantiated opinion or simply not true.

 

[Senethro]

I remember you AngelScotBoi. You're the guy who registered E:TW on Steam and returned it to the store, meaning you both got to permanently keep the game, your money back, and if someone else bought your returned copy it wouldn't work for them. Yet you still feel the need to complain bitterly.

You're a bit dodgy mate.

Moderator Action: Trolling - warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[azzaman333]

Out of the kindness of their hearts 2K/Valve should open the floodgates 24 hours earlier for those of us who’ve preordered. In fact, they could allow us to d/l the entire game up to the point of activation. At 12:01AM on 21 September, then all we’d need would be the few bits & bytes to activate that puppy.

It's likely that you'll be able to pre-load it shortly before release if you have it pre-ordered.

 

[Angelscotboi]

This simply isn't true. Maybe in the past, but I'm literally looking at my list of steam games *right now*. There's not even a button to 'verify'. All your games are verified when they're installed. As to the second one, again, never happened to me, never heard anything of the sort.

That's not true as well. You can install any steam game as much as you like. You can only be logged at once computer at a time with an account though.

You have to run/install third party programs to run any game. Civ 4 had securom, etc. Isn't civ third party software to begin with? It's not 'forced' if it's literally a major part of the game itself. Required is a more correct term, but see above about any game 'requiring' you to do all sorts of things. As to system resources, it's about 50 mb of ram. This web browser uses more than 3x the 'system resources'.

So to summarize: Autopatching is the only legitimate concern that I can find in your post. The other stuff is either unsubstantiated opinion or simply not true.

Actually your quite incorrect im afraid. It simply IS true.

And I KNOW that its true. My nephew bought Supreme Commander 2 for his PC, he has the first game. His PC is a gaming rig that is not hooked online as my sister doesnt want him online unsupervised where he can accidentally download viruses and such.
And Steam simply would not allow him to play the game at all because he was offline; and Steam's own help pages says that you MUST be online to set a game to offline mode.

Sorry man but it is true.

As for it requiring you to get back online to check the game; I never said you had to go on and hit a "verify" button - your being deliberately obtuse here.
It does it automatically; and if you wont let it go online then it wont let you play the game further. Trust me. Well at least it did in the version that I was using with Empire Total War; maybe Valve fixed it in the interim I dont know. But I do know at the time I was using it it was a problem I encountered.

I dont appreciate being called a liar actually. Just because my experience and opinion differs from yours doesnt make me one thank you very much.

Perhaps I should explain what i meant by 3rd party software. I meant that it was software from a 3rd party (ie not me being the first party or Firaxis being the second) that frankly I see no point to.
Now please not that just because I see no point to being "required" to install Steam to play a SINGLE PLAYER game doesnt mean that i require you to think or feel the same. You might see the point. I dont and I resent being "required" to do it.

Sorry I do not wish to fight with you; but please dont call me a liar again.
You have had a a differing experience from me, its been more positive. Good I am glad for you. Maybe the problems I have detailed have been fixed in subsequent versions of steam - it was a while ago that I used it. But I would rather not take the risk again.
I dont like steam and I dont like the company that created it. Thats my opinion.

No where in my post did I present what i said in anything other than OPINION. In fact I am fairly sure that it was pretty clear that it was simply my opinion formed from my experiences with the program. And I do live in whats called a Democracy (technically a constitutional monarchy but the differences are minor) and I am used to the concept of freedom of speech and freedom of expression and maybe its not the same in your country but last time I checked we were allowed to air our opinions on this site in the democratic tradition also.

I remember you AngelScotBoi. You're the guy who registered E:TW on Steam and returned it to the store, meaning you both got to permanently keep the game, your money back, and if someone else bought your returned copy it wouldn't work for them. Yet you still feel the need to complain bitterly.

You're a bit dodgy mate.

Yes I did. I didnt know about that as a problem then before I returned it, it never occurred to me till you pointed it out in another thread, and neither did the shop assistant apparently lol.

Still just because im posting in a thread about my reasons for disliking steam and why i wont by civ 5 is hardly any reason to call me dodgy.
Neither is my exercising my right under british law to return product that was not working to my satisfaction. Frankly you dare you say that.

And in a thread where mods have posted to?

Aren't you that butthead who hecked me relentlessly in another thread for disliking steam? Do you think that your in charge of the world or something where you have the right to attack another person for daring to have a different opinion from you?

How charmingly facist of you. My mother always said "if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all"; and I believe this applies here.
You got me warned once already for responding to your mannerless vitrol in kind - and I have NEVER given the moderators on this site cause to even look at me wrong in the years ive been on this site.

I wont let you do it to me again.

And honestly you steam lovers are very sensitive about being disliking your worshipped program. Its most disconcerting.

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned
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[Corvak]

I can understand the reasoning behind Steam dislikes...but it's not enough to prevent me from buying it.

Though some of that is partly because I've never sold/returned a game unless it's somehow non-functional.

 

[ori]

Moderator Action: Any trolling and flaming will stop right now.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[arstal]

Dear Acronym2,

The purpose of my post was merely to provide a few more alternatives to the ones ori’s already submitted. My vote would be:

• I have already preordered the game via Steam, and have no dog in this fight, but think it’s kind of strange that we’re forced to have an internet connection in order to validate its authenticity.

As to preordering the digital download, I simply wanted to make damned sure I got my order in, before they ran out of available licenses for the super-duper Digital Deluxe Edition.

Plus, I think VALV^E might accidentally crank up the bandwidth knob for us early birds, and place a mandatory ceiling of 64 KB/sec on those of you poor bastards who sit on the fence too long and wait until release day to finally dip your toe in the water.

This would only be a problem for megahit games such as MW2 or TF2.

Civ V should be fine in this regard.

Oh, I see....it was meant to be like a joke.

Currency devaluation? Inflation? I'm not sure I would agree with you on all that. It seems a simple matter that if one is excited and can't wait to play the new game then one would most likely preorder the download.

In addition, I've been reading the rather interesting security related posts in this thread and I'm glad this topic has surfaced as I think it is an important one. I do not disable security features or AV software to install or run anything. Legitimate Software and games shouldn't really require this and I haven't had any major problems installing and running programs on my computer with all security fully enabled.

Actually, that has been a problem in Europe with their devaluation. It's come up in the SD forums. Stardock has said it's not worth a retail release in Europe due to only getting about 5% of what they sell it for.

Some Europeans have complained the price has skyrocketed, since SD sells it at the same price worldwide, and Euro/pound have dropped in value relative to the dollar. Australians and Canadians are real happy though.

May not apply to Civ, as 2K will gouge Euros with region pricing, they just get effectively gouged less.

Really, over time, my concerns for this game have shifted from distrust of Steam (I still don't like mandatory Steamworks, but I don't boycott Steam- just don't pay full price for Steamworks games due to the issues), to just flat-out distrust of 2K and serious concerns about whether this game will stink. The Steam thing is secondary now.

 

[12agnar0k]

1. And Steam simply would not allow him to play the game at all because he was offline; and Steam's own help pages says that you MUST be online to set a game to offline mode.

2. Now please not that just because I see no point to being "required" to install Steam to play a SINGLE PLAYER game

3. Still just because im posting in a thread about my reasons for disliking steam and why i wont by civ 5 is hardly any reason to call me dodgy.

4. "Aren't you that butthead"
"How charmingly facist of you."
My mother always said "if you have nothing nice to say then say nothing at all";


5. You got me warned once already for responding to your mannerless vitrol in kind - and I have NEVER given the moderators on this site cause to even look at me wrong in the years ive been on this site.

I wont let you do it to me again.

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

1. Steam is only required to be "online" (i.e connected to an internet connection) when it needs to validate/verify something, this occurs only at a) installation, b) fixing a corrupted file , c) validation of login credentials (if you let Steam save your credentials to automatically enter, then the this process also saves the validation of credentials so you need not login into online mode each time you use Steam).

So no you can't use Steam if you never plan on connecting to the internet, though it shouldn't be hard to connect to the internet temporarily to get your nephew's Steam account validated and then remove the connection.

2. The reason it is required in general, irrelevant to what game style you wish to play, is because Steam is a form of DRM. While you may not "need" it, the game developers do, and you have to accept it to play the game, Steam unlike other forms of DRM however gives benefits to the customer as well as the developer, and it is unique in this.

3. I believe he called you dodgey because you returned a game to a shop that you could still play because you had used the Steam Key to link it to your Steam account but the next person who would get this game would be out of thier money. Basically you stole a copy of that game and whats worse made someone else get a copy that wouldn't work. This is "dodgey" behaviour, to use the other guys ridiclious terminology. Disliking Steam, or Not buying Civ5 has nothing to do with it.

4. Well obviously your mother tried to teach you manners, it seems they didn't take.

5. Just lol. Its not his fault your mothers lessons didn't take.

Moderator Action: I did ask everyone to stop trolling, didn't I?
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