Civilization 5 Steamworks questions/concerns for inclusion in the FAQ

[PieceOfMind]

Nothing wrong with DLC, its as bad as giving expansion packs. It's merely a way to give more content to a consumer on a game that they released and a way to make more money.
So long as its done right it won't affect peoples ability to play another person who didnt buy it. This can be achieved and only isn't if we have lazy developers, which I beleive we can all agree is not the case with Frixasis.

Automatic patching again is great, it removes your need to go out of your way to find a patch for a game which can be annoying. Again its only a problem if it isnt taken into consideration with development, i.e having a patch introduced, will it affect any mods? If so can something be developed to remove this problem?

These are not issues with Steam, merely general development issues. If development is thorough, then its not a problem.

They keyword being 'if'.

Everyone makes mistakes, and Firaxis will no doubt make a few with civ5. We just don't know where yet.

Remember, we're technically getting an incomplete game at launch (without PBEM, pitboss and hotseat unless they pleasantly surprise us), but call me pedantic if you want.

Hopefully if they do somehow muck up patching, it will be possible to fix (for example, allowing users to choose their patch version would possibly solve a lot of problems).

 

[12agnar0k]

Uhuh, and no its likely hotseat and pitboss will be released one month after release as they announced, I don't think your pedantic, its a valid concern and its one I share, Will they develop it to a decent standard, so that DLC is compatible, it can be done so hopefully it will be. By this I mean all physical and digitable games come with bablyon civ in thier game files just you cant access the civ unless you brought the DLC, this solves combatitbility issues. Not sure how mods/patching issues can be solved or if they will even have issues, I am niether a patch maker or a mod maker .

But it is true, we are relying on IF it is done as to wether or not we will get a game we will love or not. If I can't play X friends because they didnt buy the DLC then I will not be impressed and this has been true with other games such as Call of Duty World at War.

Though you can't shove the blame of having these problems arrise on Steam, Steam is not the cause of any DLC problems or Mod issues. The game may well have gone down the DLC route if it didnt go with Steamworks, and then this issue would still be an issue. Similarily, not forcing users to patch does not solve the issue of Mods not working with a patched game it just delays the issue slightly and besides if you play offline mode on Steam you will be able to avoid patch and play your favourite mods so this isnt a problem unless you choose to play online, and again not down to Steam.

That is my point, its not steams fault, dont blame them, hope the developers get it right and if they don't then you can rightly blame them. And then hopefully they will patch (ironically) a solution to the problems caused by Patching and also DLC. =).

 

[PieceOfMind]

I have little doubt they will ensure DLC will be fairly problem free, to be honest. I'm not so worried about that. DLC is a direct source of revenue after all. Personally I have little interest in discussing that possible source of problems.

However, patching and any problems that may come with a poorly designed patching process are what worry me more. I'm not intimately familiar with the game development process, but I suspect that patching systems are not exactly the easiest thing to test until the game is actually unleashed on the public. Note that patching is a different issue to compatibility which, again I will assume, is easier to sort out before the game is released.

And no, don't assume I'm blaming Steam for anything. I can't remember the last time I actually wanted to blame Steam. It's 2K and (perhaps) Firaxis' decision to use steamworks so any problems that may come with steam in the civ5 game context are better to be blamed on Firaxis/2K. However, no blame is necessary yet! It's just a bit frustrating we are still completely in the dark about basic things like the patching process that will come with civ5. I can only hope this is because they are working very thoroughly to make it work as best they can and so cannot possibly release any info about it whatsoever.

 

[Drakarska]

2. "Steam is like Spyware", this is not true, Spyware by definition is malicious, and doesn't allow you to remove it without a specialised tool, *Cough* like SecuRom, Steam can be removed at will, it is not an infestation on your PC. If anyone wishes to argue against this fact I can go into more depth.

3. "Steam is being forced on me" These comments are absoulte nonsense, you are a consumer and as a consumer you have the right to choose whether or not you want a product. Steam is not being forced on you, nothing is, Buying Civ5 with Steamworks is not a legal requirement, you are not forced by law or any other means to buy it and install Steam. No one is going to put you infront of a firing squad if you don't want Steamworks. You as a consumer have all your rights intact, if you do not wish Steam on your PC then don't buy a game with the Steamworks DRM.

If you will buy Civ5 no matter what stuff gets installed along with it then thats fine its your choice, you may not like Steamworks being on your PC, I don't particularily like having firewalls and anti-virus software but it is a necessity for me to use my computer efficiently without being riddled with viruses and problems, just like you will accept Steam on your PC if you want to be able to play Civ5. If you don't want Steamworks or you dont want an Anti-Virus system then you will choose not to have them. No one is forcing you to do anything against your will, I plead that people accept this reality as fact. Instead you should argue that you don't like having Steam on your PC to be able to play Civ5, this is an acceptable arguement, its in my opinion a poor arguement but one a few of you have seemed to want or need to argue. But thats only my opinion and the one shared by the majority of customers and the publisher and developer and the third party DRM provider, it doesn't necesarily make us all right.

*2) Fair enough, according to YOUR opinion. IMO, Steam is actually rather difficult to "completely" remove from a system, and no one has actually provided a detailed set of informative facts as to what is actually monitered on a system. In addition, Valve/Steam has some rather vague SSA's/EULA's. So it's a matter of perspective on what your willing to call acceptable and not malicious.

*3) Again, a matter of perspective. While I agree with the actual fact that as a customer I have a choice not to purchase Civ V because of the inclusion of Steam, The principle of the matter is entirely different. I'm not going to go into another lengthy discussion as to why, since it's been covered numerous times in this and other threads. Point being, you have your opinion, I have mine.

* Since we're discussing differing opinions, let's take a look at your last lengthy paragraph:

"If you will buy Civ5 no matter what stuff gets installed along with it then thats fine its your choice" - I actually prefer to know what's getting installed on my system, and do not blindly accept things without 1st getting appropriate information..Also, yes, it is my choice .

"you may not like Steamworks being on your PC" - I don't, bad personal experiance.

"I don't particularily like having firewalls and anti-virus software but it is a necessity for me to use my computer efficiently without being riddled with viruses and problems, just like you will accept Steam on your PC if you want to be able to play Civ5". -I do not believe that comparing Steam to AV's and FW's is a fair analagy, just like I do not believe that I have to accept something in order to do something I like. Again, opinions and perspective.

"If you don't want Steamworks or you dont want an Anti-Virus system then you will choose not to have them". - You can't really compare the two, totally different programs. But I understand your analagy.

"No one is forcing you to do anything against your will, I plead that people accept this reality as fact". - Again, a matter of perspective. I agree that realistically your not being forced to do anything against your will, but the perception of if you want to play civ v you have to dl something you don't want to is still prevelant.

"Instead you should argue that you don't like having Steam on your PC to be able to play Civ5, this is an acceptable arguement, its in my opinion a poor arguement but one a few of you have seemed to want or need to argue. But thats only my opinion and the one shared by the majority of customers and the publisher and developer and the third party DRM provider, it doesn't necesarily make us all right".- We are arguing that we shouldn't have to have Steam on our PC in order to play Civ V, and while I respect your opinion of it being "poor", IMO there are too many unanswered questions concerning Steam and Civ V. Not to mention the almost total lack of interaction and apparent apathy from the local 2k rep. While the majority of peoples opinion ( and I would really like some hard numbers on how many peeps had to install Steam because they were "required" to in order to play there games") may be shared with the publisher/developer, I wonder how many peoples opinions would change if they actually bothered to consider the potential ramifications of a Steam monopoly, especially considering that they basically control your access to your games that you've already purchased. Realistcally, how many Steam customers have actually taken the time to take advantage of the "burn to disc" feature in order to protect themselves in case of a mishap? I could continue, but many of the "opinions" are already posted and your right, not 1 individual is actually right in this entire thread.

 

[12agnar0k]

Drakarska

not 1 individual is actually right in this entire thread.

Not 1 individual but I.

2), I'm sorry but the fact you dislike Steam, or that you don't want it on your PC, or that if you get rid of it you can't play a Steam game doesn't make it spyware

Spyware is a type of malware that is installed on computers and collects little bits of information at a time about users without their knowledge. The presence of spyware is typically hidden from the user, and can be difficult to detect. Typically, spyware is secretly installed on the user's personal computer. Sometimes, however, spywares such as keyloggers are installed by the owner of a shared, corporate, or public computer on purpose in order to secretly monitor other users.

While the term spyware suggests that software that secretly monitors the user's computing, the functions of spyware extend well beyond simple monitoring. Spyware programs can collect various types of personal information, such as Internet surfing habits and sites that have been visited, but can also interfere with user control of the computer in other ways, such as installing additional software and redirecting Web browser activity. Spyware is known to change computer settings, resulting in slow connection speeds, different home pages, and/or loss of Internet or functionality of other programs. In an attempt to increase the understanding of spyware, a more formal classification of its included software types is captured under the term privacy-invasive software.

This is not what Steam is, its not secrety installed, it doesn't collect information without your knowledge, it tells you in a EULA or SSA or w.e, Steam isn't difficult to detect its a simple application like any other you might use on a daily process, Steam doesn't interfere with other programmes on your PC, it doesn't slow down your PC anymore than having any other normal 50kb ram programme running, it doesn't require a special tool to remove, To remove steam simply use the unistall.exe that all legit programmes come with. It may very well leave some information behind in a folder so that if you re-install Steam at any point you don't have to re-do all this, I believe you can leave game files on the PC when you uninstall Steam. Possibly, but thats a choice on uninstall.
Steam does not act anything like Spyware, It is not Spyware this is a Fact, you may not personally like it, you may not want it on your PC, but it makes it no more Spyware than any other application you don't like / want but may need installed.

3) Again, this is not a case of differing opinions, you agree with me that consumers have the right to choose whether or not to install a DRM Steamworks product. Thus Steam is not forced on anyone, certainly not against thier will or in secret. The fact remains that someone may not like the fact that Steam was installed a long with Civ5 and that the programme is required to run it, but thats no different than me saying I dont like a particular file in the Civ5 game folder, say "johnson.dll" it doesn't mean this file is forced upon me, I can choose not to install it or remove it at will, I just wont be playing Civ5 if I do.

I would appreciate it if people stopped refered to the process as "being forced to install Steam" as this is not the case, a simple re-wording which changes the implications being sent out is all I ask, say "being required to install Steam to play Civ5" instead.

I wasnt saying that Steam is like an AVG, only in the sense that I may not want them but they are required so I can enjoy something else. I.e Steam for Civ5, AVG + others for protection whilst trolling forumns. They have this in common. But I believe you understood this so why am I mentioning it... I don't know.

I'm not ignoring the fact that some genuine concerns have been raised with some aspects of Steamworks, I have tried to answer all queries I find as best I can, but yes thier are still some concerns that mean more to some than others, they are all minor issues for me but could be tremendously important for others.
If you have a question about Steam and aren't getting the answers you desire, then I would suggest making a post on the Steam forumns to ask someone with more understanding than general CFC users.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I think you mean 50MB rather than 50kb.

Your request for people to be politically correct about the language "being forced to use steam" is likely to fall on deaf ears. Even if you wanted to argue strictly from the definition, it's a legitimate way to use the word 'force'.

If one wants to play civ5 then one is forced to install steam. If installing steam is unacceptable, then installing civ5 is not possible. For all intents and purposes steam is part of the game civ5, and any criticisms or complaints about steam are criticisms or complaints about civ5.

 

[Thyrwyn]

For those of us who live in the United States, there is this: US court says software is owned, not licensed.

From the link you provided:

The Court said that it had to follow that case's precedent because it was older than another conflicting ruling, and that it could not choose a precedent based on the most desirable policy.

"The court’s decision today is not based on any policy judgment. Congress is both constitutionally and institutionally suited to render judgments on policy; courts generally are not," the Court ruled. "Precedent binds the court regardless of whether it would be good policy to ignore it."

emphasis added

 

[Nick Danger]

I'm not ignoring the fact that some genuine concerns have been raised with some aspects of Steamworks, I have tried to answer all queries I find as best I can, but yes thier are still some concerns that mean more to some than others, they are all minor issues for me but could be tremendously important for others.

This shows you are one of the reasonable/responsible folks and why your views merit consideration.

Good job!

...it [steam] doesn't collect information without your knowledge, it tells you in a EULA or SSA or w.e...

Given that you're a smart guy, your posts and logic/rhetoric are generally pretty good and you've obviously been reading many/most of the posts here -- that makes this statement hard to fathom.

From valve's privacy policy:
"Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user."

How many times does this have to be repeated before we stop seeing the obviously false claim that we know what information steam collects?

Regarding the 'spyware' label: I agree with you that steam isn't spyware in the traditional sense (ie -- it's not installed without our knowledge/consent).

What some of us are concerned about is that it collects unspecified information (including personally identifiable information) and shares it with unidentified third parties and associates for unknown (but I'll grant not nefarious) purposes. Let's not get sidetracked by semantics please (I'm directing this at all of us, myself included).

...Steam isn't difficult to detect its a simple application like any other you might use on a daily process, Steam doesn't interfere with other programmes on your PC, it doesn't slow down your PC anymore than having any other normal 50kb ram programme running, it doesn't require a special tool to remove...

Let's assume all this is true (as others mentioned your 50kb ram is likely way too low, but for the sake of argument let's go with that).

Some of us see no value to what steam offers (such as achievements, the anti-cheat stuff that runs in the background similarly to a anti-virus program, friends lists, etc.). We accept the DRM function (a one-time online activation is ok, and the 'old-fashioned' methods like disk-check could completely substitute for steam rendering it completely unnecessary).

Some of us don't want an unnecessary third party program running in the background for any reason, let alone for an offline single-player civ5 game.

We accept that many like steam and want civ5 to use steam.

We'd like a choice -- steam or no steam -- and we're advocating for that (even tho we know it's a losing battle).

I've seen the argument that steam is 'all or nothing'. Maybe it is, but my reading of the API Overview page makes it appear that many of steam's functions are optional and can be 'commented out'. I may be wrong about this and if so please to point out where I can educate myself on this.

I would appreciate it if people stopped refered to the process as "being forced to install Steam" as this is not the case, a simple re-wording which changes the implications being sent out is all I ask, say "being required to install Steam to play Civ5" instead.

You're smart enough to understand that when reasonable/responsible folks say "being forced to install steam" they mean "being forced to install steam and have to run it in the background to play civ5 (especially for a single-player offline game when they bought the dvd at a brick&mortar store)". The first quote is just 'shorthand' for that, as the latter quote is pretty cumbersome.

Fact is that if we want to play civ5 we are forced to not only install steam but also run it in the background -- even for offline single-player games, even when we've bought a dvd from a brick&mortar store and not from steam.

I wasnt saying that Steam is like an AVG...

Valve's API Overview page refers to VAC as an AVG:
"VAC is a component of Steamworks and the Steam client, and works by scanning the users system for cheats while your game is running. It works a lot like a virus scanner, and has a database of known cheats to detect.

So if you had said steam is like an AVG you'd have been correct (as VAC will apparently be included in civ5 tho I can't point out an official statement on this).

Thank you for your reasonable and well-thought out replies (well, except for the 'we know what information steam collects one )!

 

[12agnar0k]

I think you mean 50MB rather than 50kb.

Your request for people to be politically correct about the language "being forced to use steam" is likely to fall on deaf ears. Even if you wanted to argue strictly from the definition, it's a legitimate way to use the word 'force'.

Yes sorry, 50mb, and yes I know everything I say usually falls on deaf ears,

( P.s shhhh *whispers*, not everyone knows that forced could be used to define "required to", its a secret, and it undermines my arguement to not use forced. )

Ok so yes, thats right, ahem!, please do not use "forced" to describe the requirement of Steam as it is wrong by definition.

........

@ Nick, thanks for the various complements, atleast somebody other than myself acknowledges my obvious genious .

- "we don't know what information Steam collects", well this is true, I personally don't know exactly what they collect, I'm sure you could find out if you put some effort into it, google searches, forum posts on steam or emails/PM's to Valve Staff.
But this was not my point, my point was that "we know that Steam collects data", hence its not being done in secret, which is one of the reasons why as you agree you can't classify it as Spyware.

- "50kb programme running in the background" Sorry again it is a 50mb programme, ish, which isn't bad its small by todays standards, firefox is over 3 times as big. So it won't each much ram at all.
Well you say you think it's uncessary to run in the background, well yes from your point of view, you may not need it or want the features on Steam, i.e friends lists / community stuff, but thier is a reason it exists, it provides good DRM, i'm not sure if the pirates can make a non-steam version, but surely they will have Steam activation codes pirated, so a pirate can use the Steam app to download/install/play Civ5 for free, but Steam thanks to their EULA which is a matter of controversy around these parts, can disable the account of the Pirate, this means that we are gaurenteed to not have to play with people on multiplayer who didnt pay for the game as we did. Which is a nice thought.
Steam is a good DRM and this is why it is necessary for you to run it online in the background, you may not like it, but the developer/publisher deemed it so.

- "VAC is like an AVG", well my last point brings me along nicely to this, VAC will also keep cheaters out of Multiplayer games, atleast on VAC secured servers, not sure exactly how it will apply to Civ because i'm sure its not like other games such as FPS games where you can have a server running 24/7 for lots of different people to play together, Civ has one time only server accessed games. But if these are played on a server which is VAC secured, anyone cheating will be discovered by the VAC system and "VAC banned" which means they won't be able to play with us players who play fair. Don't cheat on Steam games if you like freedom to play multiplayer on the game you brought.

...

Steam does have it's uses, you just need to weigh up the pro's and con's and decide if it's for you. At the very least I would recommend downloading and trying out the software before you make up your mind, they always have some demo's running so you won't have to buy anything to see how it works.

 

[Thyrwyn]

From valve's privacy policy:
"Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user."

You should also include the next line from said privacy policy:

While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site.

and then

Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy.

So:
A) the only PII they collect is voluntary , and
B) is only for certain products and online sites, and
C) will only be used to the extent necessary to provide those services,
D) even by third parties with access to that information.

Later the policy states:

If an associate of Valve is collecting such personally identifiable information within one of our products or online sites, Valve will make users aware of this at the time the information is gathered.

So, they don't "secretly" collect PII, and they will alert us if any of their associates are collecting any PII. They also provide examples:

Voluntary PII collected by Valve:

For example, during registration of Steam, Valve collects a user's email address and nickname, and at the user's option, first and last name.

Voluntary PII collected by an associate:

For example, product registration data for Half-Life is collected by Sierra Entertainment. If a user does not want to provide this information, the user may choose to opt out of providing this information. Additionally, if providing the information is a requirement of usage, the user may decline to use that particular service or product. When possible, Valve will make a reasonable effort to direct users to the privacy polices of these associates.

 

[tom2050]

- "50kb programme running in the background" Sorry again it is a 50mb programme, ish, which isn't bad its small by todays standards, firefox is over 3 times as big. So it won't each much ram at all.
Well you say you think it's uncessary to run in the background, well yes from your point of view, you may not need it or want the features on Steam, i.e friends lists / community stuff, but thier is a reason it exists, it provides good DRM, i'm not sure if the pirates can make a non-steam version, but surely they will have Steam activation codes pirated, so a pirate can use the Steam app to download/install/play Civ5 for free, but Steam thanks to their EULA which is a matter of controversy around these parts, can disable the account of the Pirate, this means that we are gaurenteed to not have to play with people on multiplayer who didnt pay for the game as we did. Which is a nice thought.
Steam is a good DRM and this is why it is necessary for you to run it online in the background, you may not like it, but the developer/publisher deemed it so.

Why do you stick up for DRM and EULA's from a developers point of view; unless you are a developer you really cannot know what their point of view is first hand.

A quick google search shows there are pirated Steam games out there... it's seems to be no massive deterrent to offline play, only to multiplayer/2nd hand resale.

How about giving the argument of why Steam is good from a customer and consumer's point of view? You are more likely to persuade more people to see why Steam may be good by telling them why it is good for them.

Telling people they should use Steam because it's good for some other company sounds like something 2K public relations should be doing.

--------------

In relation to the collecting of user data, Valve does not collect any data without the user's knowledge. They have a hardware survey that a user must actually take. Another user stated they do collect gaming information (what level you are on, how often you die, etc.) and I am not sure if this is an opt-in or not?

Valve has stated they want to be transparent about this, and in order to beat Piracy and Pirates, they must use the ability of being able to have alot of this consumer information to do so (IMO to be able to market games to individuals to increase sales, etc.. through hardware, gaming, and demographics data). They have stated that Steam is an extensive data-mining platform, and this is not a bad thing; as long as they continue to be transparent about it.

If they go the routes like Blizzard did (once?) and try to mine information without user knowledge, then that is not good, and would probably be met with a major uproar. Companies can change their EULA's at any moment in time, so reading a EULA as if it is set in stone is not really anything that ever should be done.

My 2 cents.

 

[Drakarska]

Are you sure it's all about beating piracy/pirates? or are they and 2k following along the lines of EA and Sony? http://www.tomsguide.com/us/gamestop-used-ea-socom-dlc,news-5914.html

 

[tom2050]

Well, Gabe Newell said it was against piracy in one interview.

The thing is, playing older games I would think is a major incentive to buy a new game from that same company. When I play a great game, I am much more likely to purchase a related game from that same company, because I may feel that the quality will be there. I agree with some of that article that cracking down on resale may actually be hurting themselves.

 

[diligence]

You have quoted the terms etc. OK they say they take info from your system for various reasons, and will contact you if a 3rd party wants to have access to the information mined from your system. It doesn't say that you can opt out so Steam can keep it and use it for their own needs but not give it to other people outside steam.

What would steam or 2K do for you if steam change their T&C so it is unacceptable ? You have a bricks and mortar copy of Civ 5 and accepted 2KS T&C of the game when you installed which I'm sure the clause from 2k will be accept any changes to steams T&C. Would 2K honour the refund of purchase price if you no longer accepts a 3rd Party (steam) T&C ? I think not.

 

[Thyrwyn]

You have quoted the terms etc. OK they say they take info from your system for various reasons, and will contact you if a 3rd party wants to have access to the information mined from your system. It doesn't say that you can opt out so Steam can keep it and use it for their own needs but not give it to other people outside steam.

you are conflating the aggregation of non-PII with the collection of PII.

The Privacy Statement indicates that PII will ONLY be collected with an opt in/out - never "taken" or "mined" from your system. Steam will alert you if any 3rd party will ask you for PII.

BTW - check your agreement with your ISP if you are so concerned about "mining". This is from the Verizon DSL Policy:

Monitoring of Network Performance by Verizon. Verizon automatically measures and monitors network performance and the performance of your Internet connection and our network. We also will access and record information about your computer and Equipment's profile and settings and the installation of software we provide. You agree to permit us to access your computer and Equipment and to monitor, adjust and record such data, profiles and settings for the purpose of providing the Service. You also consent to Verizon's monitoring of your Internet connection and network performance, and to our accessing and adjusting your computer settings, as they relate to the Service, Software, or other services, which we may offer from time to time. We do not share information collected for the purpose of network or computer performance monitoring or for providing customized technical support outside of Verizon or its authorized vendors, contractors and agents.

 

[wolfigor]

You should also include the next line from said privacy policy:and thenSo:
A) the only PII they collect is voluntary , and
B) is only for certain products and online sites, and
C) will only be used to the extent necessary to provide those services,
D) even by third parties with access to that information.

Later the policy states:

So, they don't "secretly" collect PII, and they will alert us if any of their associates are collecting any PII. They also provide examples:

Voluntary PII collected by Valve:
Voluntary PII collected by an associate:

Unfortunately Valve's privacy policy has no legal implication: it's just an explanation of their policy, but there is no legal binding for them to really do what they claim (and they can always change their mind).

A more relevant "document" is Steam subscriber Agreement that is at all effects a legal agreement between Steam and Steam's users.

In this agreement (that can be modified by Steam at any time without having to inform the users) Steam states that they have full right to do whatever they want with all the data they collect about you.
It's not only the personal information of you account but also

7. USER GENERATED INFORMATION

"User Generated Information" means any information made available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam or to Valve through your use of the Steam Software. User Generated Information may include, but is not limited to, chat, forum posts, screen names, game selections, player performances, usage data, suggestions about Valve products or services, and error notifications. Subject to the Valve privacy policy referenced in Section 1 above, as applicable, you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.

Pretty much they can do anything they want... even take your words, modify them, and use them for advertisement (like Facebook did try to enforce but had to backtrack).

What really did catch my attention in the document is this part:

11. INDEMNIFICATION

You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Valve, its licensors and their affiliates from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, that arise from or in connection with breach of this Agreement, use of Steam or any Subscription, or any User Generated Information or Third Party Content, including, but not limited to, the creation, distribution, promotion and use of any Mods, by you or any person(s) using your Account. Valve reserves the right, at its own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter otherwise subject to indemnification by you. In that event, you shall have no further obligation to provide indemnification to Valve in that matter. This Section regarding Indemnification shall survive termination of this Agreement.

You are effectively giving away your right to sue Steam even in case steam break their own contract with you and their own policies.

What can the user do in case of problems with Steam?

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE WITH REGARD TO STEAM OR THE STEAM SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT.

Well... according to the agreement the user can only cancel the account (10.A) and do not expect any refund (13.B and 13.C)


So, let me go back to the starting point and make an example.
Imagine you buy a game (like CivV) that requires to install and run Steam.
You are pretty fine with it, until you get communicated or (most likely) discover that steam/Valve changed its behaviour regarding the use personal information and you no more agree with it.
Can you stop using steam and all the games you purchased with it: yes.
Can you get a refund: no.
Can you sue them for breaching their own agreement: no.


Like I wrote earlier there is no need to coat the pill with sugar: steam is used as a DRM and to provide the distributor with a powerful commercial/advertisement/data-mining beachhead on the users' machines.

(potential) CivV users have to swallow it.

Probably as DRM Steam is less "damaging" than other solutions, more effective than a simple CD check, and very likely Firaxis wouldn't have been allowed to ship the game without an effective DRM mechanism.

In general I see that Firaxis did try to keep down the DRM and don't anger their user base too much.
But it's also a good occasion to remind to producers and distributors that we would rather play games without intrusive DRMs, and that they may loose customers in the long run.

 

[wolfigor]

BTW - check your agreement with your ISP if you are so concerned about "mining". This is from the Verizon DSL Policy:

wow... that sounds rather evil indeed!
However it mostly concerns the right to update settings and software.
Usually you get modem/router from the ISP and they may change settings remotely to be able to provide connectivity and diagnostic.
At the same time the text is written in "wide" enough to allow much more than what is officially stated
(BTw, are you forced, or better, required to install Verizon software on your PC?)

Verizon, like most of ISPs, reserves its right to monitor your connection on their own servers: Some ISPs have used this "right" to limit access to services (like VoIP, Torrent, etc.).
Not all ISPs do it, and some that were doing it had to step-back due to popular backslash, lost customers, getting sued by users, etc.

The fact that many companies have very "intrusive" behaviour does not justify it, and most important it does not mean we have to accept it silently.

 

[Commander Bello]

What would steam or 2K do for you if steam change their T&C so it is unacceptable ?

I am pretty sure that one year ago most people would have not assumed that Blizzard might try to change their rules in such a way to make people have to use their real names.
So, almost any kind of change cannot be excluded.

Since the member of the Blizzard forums actually did protest, as far as I've heard, they have stopped their attempt with the RL-ID.

Now, transfer that example to our forum here.
We would have had a lot of people claiming that this is just about "modern times", that you would just have to adjust yourself to this, that they would be happily willing in giving even more than just the real name "if it benefits the developer" and whatnotever.

Point is:
Whatever can be tried to get more information from the user, will be tried.

Another point is: if the fanbase really refuses such attempts, chances are good that the companies will not succeed.

Yet, the latter needs the fans to look a bit farther into the future than just to the point of "I want to play that game and I want to play it right now and I don't care about anything else, especially not about anything which has at least some likeliness to happen."

 

[Thyrwyn]

Like I wrote earlier there is no need to coat the pill with sugar: steam is used as a DRM and to provide the distributor with a powerful commercial/advertisement/data-mining beachhead on the users' machines.

This is simply unsubstantiated. The only reference in the subscriber agreement that references "data" is in the User Generated Content section - which is all data generated/volunteered by the user, not "taken" or "mined" from the user's machine. Nowhere in that agreement does Steam state "that they have full right to do whatever they want with all the data they collect about you."

Every "official" website/forum/chat has the same language. Every such agreement includes the "right to change" language (as does this very forum). The Steam agreement contains nothing that is unique, and nothing that is not common practice. The Gamespy Agreement for instance. They can change the agreement at will and claim the same rights regarding "user generated content". Same with Blizzard's.

 

[12agnar0k]

Why do you stick up for DRM and EULA's from a developers point of view; unless you are a developer you really cannot know what their point of view is first hand.

While it true I can't read the developers minds, I do know what DRM is, why it is attractive to developers and publishers, thier are many facts that one can know without needed to be a developer. Also frix/2k have given thier reasons why they decided to use Steamworks, watch the interviews if that interests you.

Why developers use DRM is very simple, it is to stop piracy or at the very least hinder it so as to make it not attractive. Most DRM's just fail badly, but they do work in hindering Pirates but not only piracy, they hinder genuine customers as well. Why choose steam is the "Devil you know" arguement. Steam is an effective DRM, but its not as harmful to the player base who have to use it. For example an always online alterative where you have to be online to play Civ5 logged into a 2k account, would be bad for a lot of customers who play on laptops while not on the internet. Steam allows an offline mode. Steam also offers great community / online services to whoever wants them. Steam also gives VAC security, we don't have to play cheaters, it also works as a DRM and will prevent us from playing online with Pirates. Pirates if they pirate this game will get a limited experience, no online play for example. Steam is effective as a DRM unlike quite a few others, and its the least damaging to users. Thier are much worse systems like "limited installs" or "constant online connection" DRM's which would make everyone feel worse.

A quick google search shows there are pirated Steam games out there... it's seems to be no massive deterrent to offline play, only to multiplayer/2nd hand resale.

Yes Pirates are proffesionals in thier business and they will no doubt release a pirated version quite soon after release, but they won't be able to play online with us, they won't get Steams various features, will their mod browser work?, they will have a limited version of the game we pay for, and this is how it should be if Piracy can't be completely removed.

How about giving the argument of why Steam is good from a customer and consumer's point of view? You are more likely to persuade more people to see why Steam may be good by telling them why it is good for them.

Oh I've given that arguement several times, Anti-Steam people are quite arrogant and just say "That doesn't interest me" when you explain the features that make Steam appealing to customers. If you don't see the benefits of Steam as benefits, which is thier "community / friends lists / automatic updates / ingame access to the Steam community and browser/ VAC cheat prevention, keeps our gaming fair, no one likes to lose to a cheater, effective DRM stops us playing with Pirates, no one likes to see other users getting what we payed for, for free."
Thier are plenty of advantages to using Steam if you look for them. Their are also some disadvantages and concerns with Steam which are genuine. But they matter more to some than others.

Telling people they should use Steam because it's good for some other company sounds like something 2K public relations should be doing.

Well if you are in-charge of 2k Employment I am looking for a job