Civilization elimination thread

[Leviat]

I have a question about Egypt before my next vote. People have said that their UU is weak but after one of the vanilla patches, that was changed and found them to be quite powerful on offense and defense. Has that changed again in G&K?

I mean, the war chariot is just a chariot archer that doesn't require horses and has +1 movement.

 

[PhilBowles]

Have to give an upvote to another civ that's fun to play as (which is why Egypt will be next) but I do wish the AI can learn to play the Mongols better. I would love to go against them as I play them.

I usually find the Mongols an entertaining opponent (although "rival" is a better term - in most games they end up as long-term allies), and they're often very strong (the game I just finished being an exception, but while they were no threat to me they did eliminate Askia. Twice), but what they aren't in the hands of the AI is a formidable warmonger. The AI struggles in any event with 'unconventional' UUs - just as it tries to defend workers with battering rams as though they're spearmen, and is hesitant to attack cities with them, it has difficulty with a ranged UU replacing a melee unit that can't take cities. Along with Egypt and Russia, they're one of the civs I most often come up against as a serious rival for victory (in one game they actually did win diplo victory before I reloaded - something I rarely do but did in that case because it was so close).

Songhai: As has been said before, while amphibious is nice, defensive embarkation is not as good in G&K; their UU is lackluster; their UB is good but nothing to write home about and doesn't complement a warmongering strategy.

I think people are looking at Songhai the wrong way, and it sounds as though people voting on them are either theorycrafting or not playing them correctly. It's first and foremost an economy-driven civ. The UB complements it by not costing maintenance (and a maintenance-free temple can complement warmongering through Holy Warriors) - and the money can be used to buy an army. It's a different approach to a domination civ than powerful units or German cheap unit spam; you make your money, then go out and buy an army. The UU isn't good, but it does the one thing that it needs to to complement the UA - gives you a high-strength medieval melee unit that can take cities without penalty, and taking cities = more money. It's a very tightly-designed civ, and that means that the UA, UU and UB don't look especially good in isolation because they are designed specifically to work together. The Conquistador is simply a superior unit to the Mandelaku in every way - however it doesn't provide Spain with triple gold when the cities get captured, or indeed mesh in any very obvious way with the Spanish Natural Wonder UA. With very early gold and going Honor to complement your barbarian-hunt, Songhai can get a very early lead in both gold and culture that can boost them ahead of the pack for much of the rest of the game - and because they're buying their army more quickly than other domiination civs, they can go on the offensive pretty early.

As a general point, I think people are to a large extent looking at all the civs here and asking "what bonuses does this civ add to the predetermined strategy I follow in every game?", which surely misses the point of playing different civs at all. There have been objections to Sweden on the basis that people don't make enough friendships, or only produce GPs they want to use for things other than CS influence. Objections to Songhai on the basis that you only typically run into a small number of camps if you play a typical game where you don't actively hunt them. Wasn't there someone who said they don't get enough Golden Ages to make Persia useful?

For me at least, the more interesting civs - and usually the ones that prove to be stronger than those that just give a passive bonus to what you're doing anyway - are the ones that benefit most from playing in a way unique to that civ. If I play Sweden, my entire game revolves around playing for CS favour and maximising Great Person production. I'll even build The Louvre to that end - a Wonder I would rarely build otherwise since it comes too late and either an extended Golden Age or two landmarks aren't relevant to a culture victory by that point, and it's of little use otherwise.

If I play Songhai, I hunt barbarians actively, I take Honor primarily for the opener in the early game and the closer for the rest of it, and will speed through that tree. I may even give cities I capture back to another civ so that I can capture them again later for another gold boost (I only need the capitals, after all).

etc. etc.

 

[Light Cleric]

I mean, the war chariot is just a chariot archer that doesn't require horses and has +1 movement.

Yeah, it still has the rough terrain penalty and all that. Really the only good Chariot Archer UU is the Horse Archer.

 

[Monthar]

...
Sweden 19 ...

This post incorrectly added 2 to Sweden instead of 1. So here's how the list should look.

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 19
Babylon 26
Byzantium 21
Carthage 23
Celts 14
China 24
Denmark 10
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 15
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 15
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 22
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 5
Sweden 18

 

[PhilBowles]

This post incorrectly added 2 to Sweden instead of 1. So here's how the list should look.

I just like them that much... Sorry about that one.

 

[Leviat]

I think people are looking at Songhai the wrong way, and it sounds as though people voting on them are either theorycrafting or not playing them correctly. It's first and foremost an economy-driven civ. The UB complements it by not costing maintenance (and a maintenance-free temple can complement warmongering through Holy Warriors) - and the money can be used to buy an army. It's a different approach to a domination civ than powerful units or German cheap unit spam; you make your money, then go out and buy an army. The UU isn't good, but it does the one thing that it needs to to complement the UA - gives you a high-strength medieval melee unit that can take cities without penalty, and taking cities = more money. It's a very tightly-designed civ, and that means that the UA, UU and UB don't look especially good in isolation because they are designed specifically to work together. The Conquistador is simply a superior unit to the Mandelaku in every way - however it doesn't provide Spain with triple gold when the cities get captured, or indeed mesh in any very obvious way with the Spanish Natural Wonder UA. With very early gold and going Honor to complement your barbarian-hunt, Songhai can get a very early lead in both gold and culture that can boost them ahead of the pack for much of the rest of the game - and because they're buying their army more quickly than other domiination civs, they can go on the offensive pretty early.

I look at Songhai as a warmonger civ (I think you must, given that their UA is triple pillage money & amphibious) and then i evaluate them compared to other warmonger civs. I would not call them an economy-driven civ, since their economical advantage is dependent on fighting.

In comparing them to other civs that I might conquer the world with, I find them inferior to most. Rome, China, Japan, Greece, Mongolia, The Huns...the list goes on for civs that are better at domination than Songhai.
Sure, with songhai I get lots of gold from pillaging cities and I get a knight that takes cities as well a melee unit. With China I get a double strength GG and CKN, with Rome I get two early and complementary boosted units + 25% construction, Japan I get an army of the undying, Mongolia has a boss cavalry archer and a GG that heals them....Songhai is a bit underwhelming by comparison

 

[Light Cleric]

Actually one of the reasons I dislike playing Songhai is because Knights and their melee UU replacements(Mandecav/Conquistador) are really underwhelming in G&K to me; Chivalry takes forever now and the AI spams Pikemen more than ever. Yeah they don't have a penalty vs cities, but you're going to take a ton of damage with the way city defenses have gone up and, again, how they come out significantly later.

 

[Lord Kid]

I don't get it why people keep complaining about too situational wonders/civs because they can put a lot of variation in the game. I like the Spanish because their UA motivates you to go on the explore and with some luck make a bunch of money. What people also seem to forget is the extra bonus if a wonder is within your borders, 20+ happiness from the FoY is quite a lot. The units are also really cool and useful, also very good for the settling of new cities.

I'll agree the UA is really nice, BUT only if you have a lucky spawn and are playing on mid level difficulties. On higher difficulties, you just cannot pump out enough units to match the AI's gifted ones, and it really is almost impossible to get to those wonders first. I like how you get double the bonus' (i.e. science/gold/culture) if you can work those, but there are only a handful of wonders in a game, and they are spread around the world, and quite a few actually spawn inside a CS' territory or some part of the map that is either completely useless (tundra/ice) or completely inaccessible for a city (Krakatoa). Not only that, but only a couple of the Wonders are actually worth beelining for. The inconsistency of their UA's reliability really makes them weaker when compared to other civs.

Bakspatel - on Immortal and Deity the AI has a bunch of units, a few scouts, extra workers and 1-2 settlers. While I love exploring, that setup simply makes your exploration dreams crumble to dust, as the AI will get to 95% of the wonders first - you may luck out with 1, or maybe 2, but only if they are in your vicinity. Having GBR spawn around you should be godly, but that happens less than 2% of the time.

This was my reason of giving Spain my thumbs down.

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[klandri]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 19
Babylon 26
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24 (+1)
Celts 14
China 24
Denmark 8 (-2)
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 15
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 15
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 22
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 5
Sweden 18

Carthage is just awesome. Free trade routes everywhere while others have to wait till late medieval era to build expensive, time consuming harbors. Quinqeremes (or however you spell the damn unit) are awesome early game and really pack a punch. Forest elephants are a lackluster, though but the other things make up for it. Climbing mountains is fun too, although not gamechanging.

Denmark is boring. Their berserker unit is good but that's about it. Their ability is very situational, and Norwegian ski infantry is not very good. And as it happens I am from Iceland so in my opinion they are dirty tyrants.

 

[Buccaneer]

I didn't play Songhai as a warmonger at all (won culturally, instead). On a standard map that I played them with, there were only 3-4 barb camp that were in play, so that made their UA irrelevant. Come to think of it, I guess I wouldn't like any civ whose UA involves barbs.

 

[PhilBowles]

I look at Songhai as a warmonger civ (I think you must, given that their UA is triple pillage money & amphibious) and then i evaluate them compared to other warmonger civs. I would not call them an economy-driven civ, since their economical advantage is dependent on fighting.

In comparing them to other civs that I might conquer the world with, I find them inferior to most. Rome, China, Japan, Greece, Mongolia, The Huns...the list goes on for civs that are better at domination than Songhai.

Warmonger /= domination necessarily. France isn't automatically a culture victory civ because its UA produces culture, Greece doesn't just go for diplo because of its UA etc. And as an aside, every time I play as Rome (including my current game) I end up without access to a source of iron, and by the time I've obtained it Legions are obsolete.

Songhai make money through fighting, spend it on units, do more fighting, get more money. Once they have the units they need they can spend the money however they want - I use them for domination occasionally, but I've gone science or diplo with them a few times. All that matters is that you produce an enormous amount of money, and you often want to be engaged in at least one long-running war to maximise the value of the Honor finisher. Yes, it's a different way of making money, but that's the point of having different civs - they focus on the same game resources in different ways.

 

[DeathFace]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 19
Babylon 26
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 14
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 15
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 13
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 22
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 5
Sweden 19

Sweden's UUs are pretty good, but the part I love the most is the UA. I can easily get at least 3/7 of the AI civs to sign DoFs with me and I like trading in my Great Generals and Admirals after creating my puppet empire for instant allies.

Again, Mongolia isn't fun to play for how I play.

 

[Leviat]

Warmonger /= domination necessarily. France isn't automatically a culture victory civ because its UA produces culture, Greece doesn't just go for diplo because of its UA etc. And as an aside, every time I play as Rome (including my current game) I end up without access to a source of iron, and by the time I've obtained it Legions are obsolete.

Songhai make money through fighting, spend it on units, do more fighting, get more money. Once they have the units they need they can spend the money however they want - I use them for domination occasionally, but I've gone science or diplo with them a few times. All that matters is that you produce an enormous amount of money, and you often want to be engaged in at least one long-running war to maximise the value of the Honor finisher. Yes, it's a different way of making money, but that's the point of having different civs - they focus on the same game resources in different ways.

Hey, they can be different and be considered worse Also, Rome w/o Iron is a bummer. But try again, a 6 iron tile or a couple 2 iron tiles and it's bombs away!

I shouldnt have used the word domination, since that implies the domination VC. I think there are many civs that are better for warring than Songhai, regardless of your ultimate VC.

The way that you are describing effective use of Songhai requires constantly taking cities, so one long-running war would not get songhai much more gold than any other civ. If Songhai got money from killing units, then I would agree with the argument here, but Songhai's benefit is from taking cities, so you would need to be in many wars in fairly quick succession to take advantage of their UA. And I still think I am better served as China/Japan/Rome/Mongols/Huns/Greece/France/Aztec than Songhai, given the advantages of the others.

If you are talking about leveraging a quick start from extra gold from lots of barbarian encampments, I will have to try it but I don't think the amount of gold I would receive would be worth the amount of early production I would use making units. Really to make it worthwhile I would want 500 extra gold by ~turn 60. But to get 10 encampments in that amount of time and still be protecting my own lands from the uber-agressive AI, I would miss out on building a lot of early infrastructure. I can easily take the 4-5 that will probably be close to me, but even 5 is only 250 more gold than normal.

For quick money I'd rather have the Dutch UA and trade away all my luxury resources, or be the chinese and have the paper maker. Or hell, just be Atilla and start taking cities right away.

I'll have to give Songhai another try, but when I've drawn them I've always felt that no matter what strategy I take, another civ could perform it better.

 

[DGDobrev]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 19
Babylon 28
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 14
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 15
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 13
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 22
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 5
Sweden 17

Time to cast my vote for the day

Based on today's experience, Babylon gets my love and Sweden gets my hate. Babylon has once again proven its value for me, letting me win a T251 Deity OCC victory against tough opposition. Sweden dropped down on my list for 2 reasons - first, the erratic AI (we were friends for 99% of the game, then they DoW'd me, and as soon as I paid myself out cause of Swords in Plowshares they offered me DoF 3 turns later) and second, the weirdly allocated UU. Although their UA is awesome with many friends (just do it on a Huge map), they get the weirdest personality. I thought Sweden is all about friends, but they like to make more enemies for their own good. The second reason is that somehow, Sweden did not perform so well for me on Deity. With Sweden, I would make many friends, make a big empire that would make the opponents think twice before causing trouble... AI still doesn't do it. As for my experiences, maybe I got something wrong, and I will try again, but for now... 2 votes down.

 

[Tachii]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 20
Babylon 28
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 12
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 15
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 13
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 22
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 5
Sweden 17

Celts for one of the most lackluster civs in G&K. Both Ethiopia and Mayans trump over them as religion civs.

Aztecs for anybody who isn't a peace monger. Actually, you can still be a peace monger, it gets you to finish Tradition faster and with Floating Gardens you can expect to go ridiculously tall. If people do go wide then you should be waring anyways.

Spain is alright but I guess people consider the UA too broken. It does allow for some variety though, trying to steal land by settling far away to a natural wonder can invite some pretty funny scenarios.

 

[meteo63]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 20
Babylon 28
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 12
China 24
Denmark 8
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 15
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 13 - 2 = 11
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 22
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 5 + 1 = 6
Sweden 17

Mongolia: Okay, the problem I have here is not with the +1 movement, the Keshik, or even the unique Khan general unit. Those are fine for a medieval warmonger civilization. They're very powerful and effective, if a little boring at times, but the issue I have is with the city-state part of the UA. It's very rare, I feel, that we would want to attack a city-state, when we would rather gain influence with them for more happiness, more units, food, culture, or faith. In their current state, that part of the ability feels really lacking. So I would propose a new UA that has to do with exacting tribute from city-states: influence lost from demanding tribute reduced by 33%, or something to do with the Mongols' system of asking for tribute from conquered lands.

Spain: Though I do not necessarily rank them very highly, I don't think they should be dropping quite so fast here. The unique flavor of exploring for gold is so interesting in terms of Spanish exploration history that I just feel that it works very well. And of course it is a bit of a gamble, which is the whole point of it. That just makes that one game where you find the best natural wonders more exciting.

 

[Awsome Sause]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 20
Babylon 28
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 12
China 24
Denmark 6
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 22
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 6
Sweden 17

Denmark: I like there UUs but there UA is weak in my opinion especially since i don't pillage land that i want to conquer. Not a bad civ just one of the worst ones left!

Iroquois: A huge production bonus from longhouses a good swordsmen replacement that does not require iron not to mention a lot of money saved building roads. Very helpful in multiplier as well since the Forrest will slow down you opponents a lot when they are attacking.

 

[truenarnian]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 20
Babylon 28
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 12
China 24
Denmark 6
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 20
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 6
Sweden 17

I came to this thread too late: I couldn't help save Polynesia. I love their colours, their UA, the Moai effect - disappointed so few appreciate that this Civ is as least NEW. That alone (in my opinion) ought to keep them from elimination for a while. Sad face.

Anyways...
I've liked Inca from the moment I laid eyes on them. I don't love their icon, but colours, ability, unique improvement, UU - just love them.

Persia is so weird for me. I remember liking them in Civ 4, but I hate them in this game. for one reason. And you're all gonna think I'm crazy...but I'm serious. Their colours. McDonalds colours. USC colours. I. HATE. And I can't play them. Only Civ I absolutely refuse to play. I shudder when I encounter them in the game and start planning my next war...

PS - I'll be sad to see Spain go - another fave civ for me because I like exploring the entire map early, and excellent colour scheme. Conquistadors also.

 

[The A.K.T]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 20
Babylon 28
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 12
China 24
Denmark 7(6+1)
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 10
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 27
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 20
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 6
Sweden 15(-2)

Cant understand why people downvote Denmark. They are so strong. On line with Carthage on island maps.

 

[CivDecimation]

America 14
Arabia 23
Aztecs 20
Babylon 28
Byzantium 21
Carthage 24
Celts 12
China 24
Denmark 7
Egypt 13
England 16
Ethiopia 20
France 20
Greece 22
Huns 8
Inca 25
Iroquois 16
Japan 18
Korea 21
Maya 28
Mongolia 11
Netherlands 17
Ottoman Empire 20
Persia 20
Roman Empire 21
Russia 18
Siam 21
Songhai 14
Spain 6
Sweden 15

Huns seem quite unfair, seeing as how you can rush multiple enemies on a Pangaea map even on immortal and take out three to four caps (well actually all seven in some cases on a standard sized map).

Pyramids allow you to get some extra faith and science which can help you found a religion on the higher difficulties.