[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Krajzen]

Technically, you are right, with Arabia, the Ottomans and Mali, but let's not forget that the game also includes pre-Islam Nubia, Persia, Egypt, Indonesia...

Sorry but the argument that there are a many "civs from countries which are muslim today but there werent back in the day" as an argument against adding more actual Islamic civilizations is much more od the infamous "technical" variety of truth than just admitting there are only three muslim civs in the game

Ancient Egypt is, in every aspect, completely and utterly separate entity from Islamic Egypt so it obviously doesn't count to the counter of Islamic civs. The only things which connect ancient Egypt and Islamic Egypt are some meager linguistic remnants and genes. (Thats actually an irritating problem for me in video games - we are never going to get Islamic Egypt of Fatimids, Ayyubids and Mamluks because somehow that completely alien entity of ancient Egypt, whcih they couldn't even decipher writing of and knew nothing of its history, somehow it covers Egypt of Cairo, Saladin and Copts)
Persia in civ series is always depicted as 100% Achaemenid zoroastrian entity so it also doesn't count as "Islamic civ". There is of course cultural continuity from Achaemenids to medieval Iran, but unless I see a single tiniest bit of civ's design of Iran mentioning its Islamic part then I don't count those beings as Islamic.
Pre - Islamic Nubia is very different entity even from Christian millenium of Nubia, not to even mention Funj which came like a millenium and few centuries later.
Indonesia is a weird case, its greatest centuries came under Hindu-Buddhist dynasties so it usually gets this treatment, here actually I have no problems with that at all, but it still doesn't count as "technically" Islamic civ.

There are three Islamic civs out of 50 in this game (if we get no more), Arabia, Mali and Ottomans. I'm Iot saying there should be some idiotic quota for cultures, Religionz and regions, it was just my personal offhand disapointment, but I think saying there are much more Islamic civs that this because "they fit modern borders..." is much more "technically true" statement than "actually true" one

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As for how Babylon will be designed (I think it's one of the biggest shoe-in inclusions for New Frontier), well, I hated the Civ5 Babylon design, which is like Civ6 Korea but even more passive. Thankfully, Civ6 has been good about not going back to the well for their designs (Norway is pretty similar to Denmark, and Zulu has the same Uniques, but in general...) I know that Firaxis loves to focus on Science with Babylon, but I think it'd be cool to focus on Administration. Maybe a CUA where Governors take less or no time to be established in cities. Also, Hammurabi (who is the obvious choice for leader but obvious for a reason) was able to make Babylon such a powerhouse in part because he made Marduk the central diety in the region over Enlil. I don't know how best to represent this, but I'm picturing an LUA that grants additional yields to tiles in a Holy City, with a Phoenician-like project which can move the Holy City (and perhaps even a way to steal another player's founded religion, but I have NO idea how that would work.)

To be honest I'd be surprised if Babylon wouldn't be geared towards science after being a scientific city-state like Palenque into Maya and Seoul into Korea. Well at least I would expect them to have a science based infrastructure like a library replacement.

 

[Zaarin]

Persia in civ series is always depicted as 100% Achaemenid zoroastrian entity so it also doesn't count as "Islamic civ".

The funniest part of this is that there's very little evidence that the Achaemenids were Zoroastrian. Personally, though, I'm more interested in seeing Sassanid Iran than Islamic Iran. (I agree with you 100%, though, that modern borders don't really mean anything in regard to ancient civilizations.)

 

[Guynemer]

If we're looking for more Islamic civilizations, you'd be hard-pressed to find something better than the Timurids or the Mughals. And both of those are near the top of the list in civs that people want to see, based on threads like this. Firaxis does seem to be trying to give people what they want, so keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

The funniest part of this is that there's very little evidence that the Achaemenids were Zoroastrian. Personally, though, I'm more interested in seeing Sassanid Iran than Islamic Iran. (I agree with you 100%, though, that modern borders don't really mean anything in regard to ancient civilizations.)

I’ve been reading into this since you mentioned it before and I don’t know if there’s much evidence saying they weren’t zoroastrian either. I think we know that they believed in Ahura Mazda, so is it a reach to assume they were at least ‘proto-zoroastrian?’

If we're looking for more Islamic civilizations, you'd be hard-pressed to find something better than the Timurids or the Mughals. And both of those are near the top of the list in civs that people want to see, based on threads like this. Firaxis does seem to be trying to give people what they want, so keep your fingers crossed.

Given the Mughals were direct successors to the Timurids, I don’t think we’d see both

And I don’t think we’ll see the Mughals or Chola until they break up India in a future game, unfortunately.

 

[PhilBowles]

Costa Rica definitely should be culture/faith with bonuses in benefitting your national parks (maybe giving science? more tourism for national parks in jungles?)—either as a city state like Arenal (which is a tourist town at the base of the volcano) or Tamarindo (the most famous beach tourist town in the country), if not San Jose, it’s capital. A culture or faith focused Costa Rica civ or city state is a must imo

They like using capitals for city states, so if they did add San Jose I could see it being a Commercial CS with a unique bonus linked to tourism - perhaps giving you gold equal to the tourism output of National Parks.

A Costa Rica civ hardly seems a "must" and a civ with no military would be pretty difficult to do.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Given the Mughals were direct successors to the Timurids, I don’t think we’d see both

And I don’t think we’ll see the Mughals or Chola until they break up India in a future game, unfortunately.

I think they could do Babur's Mughals and give him Kabul as a capital and cities focused in the Afghanistan area.

 

[GenyaArikado]

I mean in fantasy games, Dwarves are always Scottish (at least their accents), Orcs (barbarians) are probably Scythian/Mongolian, we need our Wood elves! (Cairns as a unique improvement, etc.)

well, we have Eleanor XD.

 

[Mudokon Pop]

Given the Mughals were direct successors to the Timurids, I don’t think we’d see both

Since India already has two leaders, one ancient and one modern - I don't see the Mughals appearing this time around. The Timurids are a perfect fit for a Renaissance Islamic civilization.

 

[Zaarin]

I’ve been reading into this since you mentioned it before and I don’t know if there’s much evidence saying they weren’t zoroastrian either. I think we know that they believed in Ahura Mazda, so is it a reach to assume they were at least ‘proto-zoroastrian?’

Worshiping Ahura Mazda means they were Iranian, which, coincidentally, we already knew. For comparison, you can find a number of inscriptions to YHWH throughout Sinai, southern Canaan, and northwestern Arabia that aren't Jewish; perhaps a better comparison is the numerous Canaanite inscriptions to El that are not Jewish. Zoroastrianism originated in Afghanistan, and there's no clear evidence that it made it's way west into Persia in the Achaemenid period. The first clear, irrefutable evidence of Zoroastrianism is from the Parthians--who coincidentally were from the east. The Arsacids were Zoroastrian. The Sassanids were Zoroastrian. The jury is still out on the Achaemenids; invoking Ahura Mazda is not definitive evidence of anything beyond practicing an Iranian religion. (Worth noting that both Cyrus and Darius also invoked many other local gods when making decrees, which isn't exactly compatible with monotheism.)

 

[Navelgazer]

To be honest I'd be surprised if Babylon wouldn't be geared towards science after being a scientific city-state like Palenque into Maya and Seoul into Korea. Well at least I would expect them to have a science based infrastructure like a library replacement.

Oh me as well, I just like the idea of doing something more with them, and aside from Maya I haven't really loved the design of Scientific civs in 6 so far. A library replacement would be cool except... Babylon's libraries were really Ashurbanipal's thing. The Civ5 Assyrian design (still one of my very favorites in the series) paid proper homage to this fact, and it's tough to imagine a cooler library replacement than the Royal Library there.

Another idea I'm picturing is the Ishtar Gate, as an ancient walls replacement (à la Nebuchadnezzar in Civ5) which gives greater city-center defense but also grants extra production, science and culture to all trade routes involving the city.

Thinking about this a little harder, if they want Babylon to be another tall civ, one way to promote that might be a CUA or LUA that greatly benefits many districts being built in each city (penalizing having few districts would, of course, mess with Babylon's era, so they wouldn't likely go that route.)

 

[kb27787]

Isn't declaring a direct war against a city-state like a surprise war though? To me the name is flavorful and doesn't have to be taken literal. It's just a reference to when he took Babylon easily and wasn't seen as a conqueror by the Babylonians, but more of a liberator from their current ruler.

It's not a surprise war in terms of the extra move points and combat strength he usually gets....

At least "killer of Cyrus" does indeed work on Cyrus' units (and everyone else's) for Scythia's ability.

 

[Navelgazer]

This is off-topic, but because I'm playing a Catherine game while waiting for the new stuff to be available for Mac, and set the language to French for the game, I learned that while in English, France gets an extra spy at Castles and has a UI named Château, en français, they get the extra spy at Châteaux and their UI is a Castel.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Oh me as well, I just like the idea of doing something more with them, and aside from Maya I haven't really loved the design of Scientific civs in 6 so far. A library replacement would be cool except... Babylon's libraries were really Ashurbanipal's thing. The Civ5 Assyrian design (still one of my very favorites in the series) paid proper homage to this fact, and it's tough to imagine a cooler library replacement than the Royal Library there.

Another idea I'm picturing is the Ishtar Gate, as an ancient walls replacement (à la Nebuchadnezzar in Civ5) which gives greater city-center defense but also grants extra production, science and culture to all trade routes involving the city.

A Royal Library building for Assyria would be good. My idea would be for it though to be a Govt. Plaza building. Unfortunately the new Civs aren't going to use the expansion mechanics so no Govt. Plaza buildings. I have a feeling they would get something related to the encampment though.

My problem with the ancient walls replacement is it will eventually replaced by medieval walls. In that case I could see Walls of Babylon or Ishtar Gate being a UA and making walls more advanced an era earlier. Like starting the game like your cities have ancient walls and then ancient walls having the strength of medieval walls etc.

 

[Navelgazer]

A Royal Library building for Assyria would be good. My idea would be for it though to be a Govt. Plaza building. Unfortunately the new Civs aren't going to use the expansion mechanics so no Govt. Plaza buildings. I have a feeling they would get something related to the encampment though.

You're probably right there, but then again, Aztecs didn't get any encampment bonuses (instead getting the Tlachtli, one of the worst uniques in the game, as Entertainment Complexes are even more pointless for Aztec than for anyone else.) The beauty of a design like Civ5's Royal Library is that it's something you absolutely want to build anyway, it takes a little effort to get the most out of it, and that effort is itself worthwhile. And like the Tlachtli, it gives a military boost from something other than a military building. I agree with you that a Govt. Plaza building would be maybe the best fit, but as you say, the new content is mostly Vanilla-based, so...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

You're probably right there, but then again, Aztecs didn't get any encampment bonuses (instead getting the Tlachtli, one of the worst uniques in the game, as Entertainment Complexes are even more pointless for Aztec than for anyone else.) The beauty of a design like Civ5's Royal Library is that it's something you absolutely want to build anyway, it takes a little effort to get the most out of it, and that effort is itself worthwhile. And like the Tlachtli, it gives a military boost from something other than a military building. I agree with you that a Govt. Plaza building would be maybe the best fit, but as you say, the new content is mostly Vanilla-based, so...

Well the Tlatchli isn't that bad compared to the Tsikhe.
You need amenities going to war all the time anyway and they look for amenity sources so it fits them.

Anyway a Library replacement I think either one or great writing slots would work for the building whether it be Babylon or Assyria. For Babylon it could be called a Tablet House.
If it would be for Assyria I think it could provide production for units in the city until the slots are filled.

I learned that the Assyrians built some of the first armories/arsenals in the world and I figured that would also be a good unique infrastructure as well, though maybe an earlier armory building would be OP. Then again Gran Colombia needs a counter.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Well the Tlatchli isn't that bad compared to the Tsikhe.
You need amenities going to war all the time anyway and they look for amenity sources so it fits them.

Anyway a Library replacement I think either one or great writing slots would work for the building whether it be Babylon or Assyria. For Babylon it could be called a Tablet House.
If it would be for Assyria I think it could provide production for units in the city until the slots are filled.

I learned that the Assyrians built some of the first armories/arsenals in the world and I figured that would also be a good unique infrastructure as well, though maybe an earlier armory building would be OP. Then again Gran Colombia needs a counter.

The Aztecs should’ve gotten Chinampas as their unique...

For me, the Assyrians should get a unique Library, like you suggested, and also receive a unit which replaces the Battering Ram or Siege tower but comes much earlier

 

[Zaarin]

The Aztecs should’ve gotten Chinampas as their unique...

I don't think the Netherlands would have appreciated the Polder competition. I think Chinampas would be cool; I'm just not sure there are enough lake tiles on the average map to make it valuable enough.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

For me, the Assyrians should get a unique Library, like you suggested, and also receive a unit which replaces the Battering Ram or Siege tower but comes much earlier

I think a Catapult replacement at Masonry would do but it would be melee and do damage to both cities and walls at the same time and take damage back.
If they do get a unique support unit though they would need a combat unit as well so maybe add an additional unique melee heavy chariot.

 

[VermelhoRed]

There are many ways they could represent chinampas though, it doesn't have to be like in Civ V. They could also be placed on floodplains tiles for example, if they were added on GS.