[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Xandinho]

In all the Portugal vs. Native American civ for the last one, I think Portugal is going to win. Why? Because it's in the name of the controversy: Portugal vs. Native American.

Some people are advocating for a Native American, but a lot of people don't really know which one... Haudenosaunee, Comanche, Sioux... We hear a lot of name, but there is not a heavy, strong consensus toward one Native American civ to be implemented. It's not a focused demand, a focus fight, it's broad and kinda loose. Lots of civs are wanted, but in the same way lots of SEA civs are asked without truly pointing and pinning one and one only name.

On the other hand, you have Portugal. Everyone is talking about Portugal, and Portugal itself. Portugal, as a civ, is alone in the fight. Every contender for Portugal knows which civ they wants to defend: Portugal. Portugal-defenders are talking about leaders, abilities and stuff like that. We know basically what we want: exploration, maritime trade, colonization... But for a Native American civ? All propositions we hear here (except for some people) are vague, unprecise.

If Firaxis people choose Portugal as the last civ, they already know which direction they're going to take, and the name recognition is far better and way more people would want to buy it.

If Firaxis people choose a Native American civ, they will have to face yet another hard choice: which Native American civ? And after that, thinking about the leaders, the abilities.

Just for this, just because the all controversy and discussions are around Portugal vs Native American and not Portugal vs Comanche or Portugal vs Sioux or Portugal vs Haudenosaunee make me think that Portugal already won.

Which, for me, is good, because I love Portugal, even if I would have wanted more extra representation outside of Europe; but for this, it would have needed work way prior (seeing Scotland as totally unecessary representation, having two Catherine de Medici, Alexander on top of Greece, Byzantium as a redundant hellenic civ, too many post-colonial english civ (one is good (America), two maybe, but three... Canada or Australia are too many, and even both... It's worse if you consider Gandhi as the fourth one)... one post-colonial civ for each imperialist sphere of influence -UK, France, Portugal, Spain & Netherlands- should be enough and even maybe too many). But, for now, knowing what we have left (and considering that we might not have a FFP), I think Portugal has way better chances to be revealed, especially as the very last civ.


And for all the people wondering: "What could they possibly do with Portugal? Aren't we stuffed enough with trade maritime powers with Phoenicia, the Dutch and Spain?" and I'd say: look what they gave us with Babylon. Babylon was always the turtle science civ, and lots of people would have guessed they would be a third Korea/Maya... And they gave us one of the most intelligent and fun design possible. So I guess that if Portugal is present, they would find a way to make it unique and fun too.

Edit: as for a possible Feitoria similar to the one they gave us in Civ V (which was one of my favourite UI), they showed us with the Vampire Castles that it was perfectly feasible to have an improvment built outside your territory and still giving the yields to the capital. So I suppose, if we have Portugal, to have a similar design for their UI: a feitoria that can be built only outisde their territory (by a Nau or a builder, in neutral territory or in a city-State territory or a territory of another civ in which you have an open borders treaty), doubling the yields in the six tiles around it and shipping them to the capital... Which would be beneficial to have feitoria in your empire even if you're not Portugal because you'll be beneficing from the doubled yields around the building, making other civs less inclined to destroy it. A beneficial system could appear in which the host empire improve the six cases around the Feitoria (by building mines, farms or even districts) and the Feitoria doubling them (and them copy-pasting them to Lisbon).

I agree. I hardly see them cutting through Portugal, this has been in the game since Civ3, which makes it as much a staple as, I mean, Byzantines and Korea. Portugal should definitely be in the game, there is not much to discuss here, it is too important, more important than many European and European derivative civs already in the game.
As far as more Native Americans are concerned, I hope it has some more post-NFP content to fill the main gaps: One or two North American civs, Maghreb, Italian representation, Assyria and... an Egyptian alt-leader.

 

[AaronTBD]

Maybe Firaxis can add one or two more small DLCs, knowing people will be upset that they didn't add Portugal or a Native American civ.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

But I'm afraid that what uniqueness Portugal is supposed to possess if they are playable has already been covered by Spain.

Spain has a religion and naval focus; they're incredibly close, design-cise, to Indonesia already and yet we have both in the game. Spain is also a religious warmongering civ, and Byzantium has exactly the same focus. Both exist, and yet both managed to have a distinctive

We still don't have a truly exploration-focus civ. A civ that explore not to conquer or colonize, but explore by itself. Like a civ ability where they gain 1 science per ocean/water tile they discover, or a big bonus each time they discover a natural wonder or a civ or a city-State. Like "gain a trade route capacity each time your discover a natural wonder". It will feel unique enough and have nothing to do with Spain. It will be closer to Phoenicia actually.

Spain has three focus: naval, religion and war. From those focus, Portugal share only one: naval. Seeing how they manage to change our expectations with Babylon, they will be able to make a unique civ for Portugal.

 

[Zaarin]

As for choosing Native American civs, I've always been curious if they would ever include both the Haudenosaunee and the Huron, and let us play out the French and Indian War, while simultaneously avoiding any dubious questions about what is a "civ", as both were pretty well-organized and civ-like... Kind of a pipe dream, but I would be so hype to play as Native civs that interacted directly and were actually rivals, as opposed to just one token plains civ and one token east coast civ...

The Haudenosaunee and the Wendat are so similar in culture I'd be astonished (and a little disappointed) if they picked both. The Wendat are very interesting (I wrote a paper on them last quarter), but given the choice I think Firaxis will always pick the Haudenosaunee because they are better known, because they have more leader options, and because they held a third of the future US in terror.

 

[sweetbrown89]

In all the Portugal vs. Native American civ for the last one, I think Portugal is going to win. Why? Because it's in the name of the controversy: Portugal vs. Native American.

Some people are advocating for a Native American, but a lot of people don't really know which one... Haudenosaunee, Comanche, Sioux... We hear a lot of name, but there is not a heavy, strong consensus toward one Native American civ to be implemented. It's not a focused demand, a focus fight, it's broad and kinda loose. Lots of civs are wanted, but in the same way lots of SEA civs are asked without truly pointing and pinning one and one only name.

On the other hand, you have Portugal. Everyone is talking about Portugal, and Portugal itself. Portugal, as a civ, is alone in the fight. Every contender for Portugal knows which civ they wants to defend: Portugal. Portugal-defenders are talking about leaders, abilities and stuff like that. We know basically what we want: exploration, maritime trade, colonization... But for a Native American civ? All propositions we hear here (except for some people) are vague, unprecise.

If Firaxis people choose Portugal as the last civ, they already know which direction they're going to take, and the name recognition is far better and way more people would want to buy it.

If Firaxis people choose a Native American civ, they will have to face yet another hard choice: which Native American civ? And after that, thinking about the leaders, the abilities.

Just for this, just because the all controversy and discussions are around Portugal vs Native American and not Portugal vs Comanche or Portugal vs Sioux or Portugal vs Haudenosaunee make me think that Portugal already won.

Which, for me, is good, because I love Portugal, even if I would have wanted more extra representation outside of Europe; but for this, it would have needed work way prior (seeing Scotland as totally unecessary representation, having two Catherine de Medici, Alexander on top of Greece, Byzantium as a redundant hellenic civ, too many post-colonial english civ (one is good (America), two maybe, but three... Canada or Australia are too many, and even both... It's worse if you consider Gandhi as the fourth one)... one post-colonial civ for each imperialist sphere of influence -UK, France, Portugal, Spain & Netherlands- should be enough and even maybe too many). But, for now, knowing what we have left (and considering that we might not have a FFP), I think Portugal has way better chances to be revealed, especially as the very last civ.


And for all the people wondering: "What could they possibly do with Portugal? Aren't we stuffed enough with trade maritime powers with Phoenicia, the Dutch and Spain?" and I'd say: look what they gave us with Babylon. Babylon was always the turtle science civ, and lots of people would have guessed they would be a third Korea/Maya... And they gave us one of the most intelligent and fun design possible. So I guess that if Portugal is present, they would find a way to make it unique and fun too.

Edit: as for a possible Feitoria similar to the one they gave us in Civ V (which was one of my favourite UI), they showed us with the Vampire Castles that it was perfectly feasible to have an improvment built outside your territory and still giving the yields to the capital. So I suppose, if we have Portugal, to have a similar design for their UI: a feitoria that can be built only outisde their territory (by a Nau or a builder, in neutral territory or in a city-State territory or a territory of another civ in which you have an open borders treaty), doubling the yields in the six tiles around it and shipping them to the capital... Which would be beneficial to have feitoria in your empire even if you're not Portugal because you'll be beneficing from the doubled yields around the building, making other civs less inclined to destroy it. A beneficial system could appear in which the host empire improve the six cases around the Feitoria (by building mines, farms or even districts) and the Feitoria doubling them (and them copy-pasting them to Lisbon).

I see my chart has started a war

 

[Evie]

A third of the future Canada too, for that matter.

 

[sweetbrown89]

I think if Greece can have Macedon and if Rome can have Byzantium, I think Mali can have the Songhai.

So far, only Series Staples have Split Civs and even just alternate / Persona Leaders:

Splits:
- England / Scotland
- Greece / Macedon
- Egypt / Nubia

Alt Leaders: Greece, India, England, France, (given Kublai Khan: China, Mongols)

Personas:
- America, France

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I think if Greece can have Macedon and if Rome can have Byzantium, I think Mali can have the Songhai.

That is true. Welp. Songhai Civ Idea in the future for me.

 

[sweetbrown89]

I'd love to see a Kievan Rus' civilization, there's definitely a lot of untapped potential for this. With the inclusion of the Byzantines and Gauls, it doesn't seem that far-off to think that civs which historically overlapped territory would be eligible to be in the game together. Russia used to be the catch-all civ which would just broadly represent all the Slavs, but the inclusion of Poland really changed that and showed they were willing to break that idea apart.

I'm also somewhat convinced they've always purposefully left space for Kievan Rus' (or a Ruthenian) civilization to be added. Sure, Poland's abilities are all describing the Commonwealth, but do the city names actually reflect this? Not really. Lwow's in there, but where's Vilnius or *any* Belarusian city? If you were to really map out the city names for both Poland and Russia, I'm sure you'd find that there is considerable space between them that could be taken up by someone else.

Regardless, I think the rest of this pack is pretty much planned out - Vietnam, Kublai Khan, and a final civ that's likely to be a returning one (after all, in the Babylon preview they explicitly said "we couldn't go without this one"). I have no idea what they could do to make Portugal unique, but it's really a necessary addition. I guess the rest of our speculation will inevitably wait for a Final Frontier.

I’m not so sure about that — the pattern seems to be half new, half old, with 3 females

DLC
- Old: Aztecs, Poland, Persia, Khmer, Indonesia (5)
- New: Australia, Macedon, Nubia (3)
- 3 Female Leaders: Jadwiga, Amanitore, Gitarja

Rise & Fall
- Old: Korea, Dutch, Mongols, Zulu (4)
- New: Cree, Georgia, Scotland, Mapuche (4)
- 3 Female Leaders: Seondeok, Wilhelmina, Tamar

Gathering Storm
- Old: Inca, Mali, Sweden, Ottomans (4)
- New: Hungary, Mäori, Canada, Phoenicia (4)
- 3 Female Leaders: Kristina, Dido, Eleanor

New Frontier
- Old: Maya, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Babylon (4)
- New: Gran Colombia, Gaul, Vietnam, ??? (3-4)
- 3 Female Leaders: Lady Six Sky, ???, ???
- does Catherine Persona count?

‍

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

In all the Portugal vs. Native American civ for the last one, I think Portugal is going to win. Why? Because it's in the name of the controversy: Portugal vs. Native American.

Some people are advocating for a Native American, but a lot of people don't really know which one... Haudenosaunee, Comanche, Sioux... We hear a lot of name, but there is not a heavy, strong consensus toward one Native American civ to be implemented. It's not a focused demand, a focus fight, it's broad and kinda loose. Lots of civs are wanted, but in the same way lots of SEA civs are asked without truly pointing and pinning one and one only name.

On the other hand, you have Portugal. Everyone is talking about Portugal, and Portugal itself. Portugal, as a civ, is alone in the fight. Every contender for Portugal knows which civ they wants to defend: Portugal. Portugal-defenders are talking about leaders, abilities and stuff like that. We know basically what we want: exploration, maritime trade, colonization... But for a Native American civ? All propositions we hear here (except for some people) are vague, unprecise.

If Firaxis people choose Portugal as the last civ, they already know which direction they're going to take, and the name recognition is far better and way more people would want to buy it.

If Firaxis people choose a Native American civ, they will have to face yet another hard choice: which Native American civ? And after that, thinking about the leaders, the abilities.

Just for this, just because the all controversy and discussions are around Portugal vs Native American and not Portugal vs Comanche or Portugal vs Sioux or Portugal vs Haudenosaunee make me think that Portugal already won.

I think it comes down to that Civ 5 ended up introducing two different Native American cultures maybe as a reconciliation for blobbing civ the Native Americans altogether.
I kind of think this is what they did in this game with the Celts. However I agree just because we got the Cree doesn't guarantee we are getting another as last game was the first, and only time, we got 2.
That being said it's a possibility that the second native tribe from the Americas went to the Mapuche, although they are from South America.
Also the Iroquois were in the base game and nothing else from North America really came until the last expansion as well.

But I'm afraid that what uniqueness Portugal is supposed to possess if they are playable has already been covered by Spain.

They made Babylon different from Sumeria so I don't see why Portugal can't be made different from Spain. I certainly am not going to expect the Portuguese Inquisition to show up in the abilities.

As far as more Native Americans are concerned, I hope it has some more post-NFP content to fill the main gaps: One or two North American civs, Maghreb, Italian representation, Assyria and... an Egyptian alt-leader.

I like your tastes.

I see my chart has started a war

The Portuguese and Indian War.

So far, only Series Staples have Split Civs and even just alternate / Persona Leaders:

Splits:
- England / Scotland
- Greece / Macedon
- Egypt / Nubia

I would argue that Scotland is more of a "Celtic" split into Modern-day "Celtic" Nation and Gaul, as an actual Celtic group of people.
Also Nubia deserves to be a civ in it's own right as it developed alongside, but mainly separate from Egypt.

 

[Casworon]

Maybe Portugal will get in. With a colonial/colonization game mode giving bonuses for conquering/settling other continents.

I think focusing on exploration will make them different from spain. Also like the idea of them having a unique improvement that takes some ideas from the vampire castles

 

[AaronTBD]

Splits:
- England / Scotland

I wouldn’t recommend saying Scotland is basically England, especially to a Scottish person

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I wouldn’t recommend saying Scotland is basically England, especially to a Scottish person

Or a Welsh person, or an Irish person...

 

[Greywulf]

I've said this in another thread, but Bhutan is actually rather ideal right now as a potential new civ. Tibet can't make it into the game, and they scratch that itch, since they have similarities to Tibetan culture, and they are also the most environmentally friendly civ on the planet, so they also deserve a spot. So yeah, would be very happy to see Bhutan as one of the civ reveals.

As for a second DLC pass, I also find it very unlikely, but if for some reason fate wills it to be, I would love to see (assuming Portugal is the last slot)
Tibet, Haudenosaunee, Navajo, Venice, Morocco or Amazigh, Siam, Somalia, and Austria.

Considering how unlikely it would be to see Tibet, why not Bhutan instead?

 

[slavaskii]

I’m not so sure about that — the pattern seems to be half new, half old, with 3 females

DLC
- Old: Aztecs, Poland, Persia, Khmer, Indonesia (5)
- New: Australia, Macedon, Nubia (3)
- 3 Female Leaders: Jadwiga, Amanitore, Gitarja

Rise & Fall
- Old: Korea, Dutch, Mongols, Zulu (4)
- New: Cree, Georgia, Scotland, Mapuche (4)
- 3 Female Leaders: Seondeok, Wilhelmina, Tamar

Gathering Storm
- Old: Inca, Mali, Sweden, Ottomans (4)
- New: Hungary, Mäori, Canada, Phoenicia (4)
- 3 Female Leaders: Kristina, Dido, Eleanor

New Frontier
- Old: Maya, Ethiopia, Byzantium, Babylon (4)
- New: Gran Colombia, Gaul, Vietnam, ??? (3-4)
- 3 Female Leaders: Lady Six Sky, ???, ???
- does Catherine Persona count?

‍

I think many people are assuming the Trung Sisters will lead Vietnam, so that'll be our second female leader... to briefly defend Kievan Rus', Olga of Kiev would be a really awesome addition and is arguably the best person that could represent the civilization, seeing the direction the developers are going.

If it's true that we're looking at half new, half old civilizations, wouldn't your calculation indicate we still need one more new one for the NFP? If we have 4 old and only 3 new now, and that covers all the ones we know of, adding Portugal would leave us with a 5-3 split favoring the old.

 

[8housesofelixir]

IMHO the current de-blobbing of "Britain" or "United Kingdom" into England & Scotland & Welsh-Cardiff & Ireland-Armagh is adequate. Although the specific design of Scotland is absolutely another weird blob.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Considering how unlikely it would be to see Tibet, why not Bhutan instead?

The CCP won't ban Civ 6 if it includes Tibet. It will ban Civ 6 if it includes a MODERN Tibet. The Tibetan empire of the 7th and 9th centuries is actually recognized by the CCP.

I think many people are assuming the Trung Sisters will lead Vietnam, so that'll be our second female leader... to briefly defend Kievan Rus', Olga of Kiev would be a really awesome addition and is arguably the best person that could represent the civilization, seeing the direction the developers are going.

If it's true that we're looking at half new, half old civilizations, wouldn't your calculation indicate we still need one more new one for the NFP? If we have 4 old and only 3 new now, and that covers all the ones we know of, adding Portugal would leave us with a 5-3 split favoring the old.

Burn the bathouses!

 

[Greywulf]

The CCP won't ban Civ 6 if it includes Tibet. It will ban Civ 6 if it includes a MODERN Tibet. The Tibetan empire of the 7th and 9th centuries is actually recognized by the CCP.

I don't think that's a risk the devs are welling to take, especially since that all civs by default will enter the modern era. Also, you don't know how the CCP actually feels about ancient Tibet.
Either way, Bhutan is both a safer bet, and a really nice choice for a new civ ~ well fitting with out time where global warming is a big concern. Even if Tibet wasn't so political, I would probably still prefer Bhutan, because of how environmentally friendly they are.

 

[8housesofelixir]

The CCP won't ban Civ 6 if it includes Tibet. It will ban Civ 6 if it includes a MODERN Tibet. The Tibetan empire of the 7th and 9th centuries is actually recognized by the CCP.

The only problem is both Tibetan Empire and the modern Tibet writes the same in English (but interestingly not in Chinese, 吐蕃 vs. 西藏).

And as I said before, I think a direct ban is very unlikely; but FXS will more likely to play it safely, and Bhutan is a safer option (although Bhutan and Tibet are actually not that similar in culture, which also brings some interesting design questions).

 

[Greywulf]

I think many people are assuming the Trung Sisters will lead Vietnam, so that'll be our second female leader... to briefly defend Kievan Rus', Olga of Kiev would be a really awesome addition and is arguably the best person that could represent the civilization, seeing the direction the developers are going.

I think there is a fair chance of seeing the Trung sisters leading Vietnam.