COTM 08 Spoiler 2: Entering the Industrial Age

[Timko]

SirPleb - I think your link to the first spoiler is wrong

 

[AlanH]

SirPleb - I think your link to the first spoiler is wrong

It works OK for me. [EDIT]Whoops! Fixed it to point to 08 instead of 07

 

[MangeTonChapeau]

Originally Posted by AlanH
I've opened a final spoiler thread for this game, for those of you whose games extend to the Industrial/Modern Ages, and for any round-up discussions you may want.

Hard luck I'm first on that. I have written my third spoiler before the second one...
Well, I had left the AA wondering how long the Babs would leave me alive. I have been very surprised to see that even though my military was the first I ever had (needed to disband most of the enkidus I had built in a desperate attempt to survive because of the deals I had paid inconsciously), I managed to survive I planned a diplomatic victory.

My first move was to settle a maximum number of cities in the north of the continent to be able to trade for them to stay at peace. I also kept science at 0% as I planned to take the GL when two other civs would have entered the Modern Times, skipping the Industrial Ages as I would otherwise not been able to cope with their science pace.

There were two menaces to my diplomatic win : the Egyptians' culture (they were far ahead int his domain) and the Babs' military power (I had to stay alive). I managed to get the world against the Egyptians, but I wanted to control the Babs' power. The Persians looked like a perfect ennemy, having Hoover Dam and taken most of the Egyptians' cities. I also started a prebuild for the GL and started to settle in the Egyptian territory to get more luxuries to trade for. But Persepolis built the UN without me noticing that they had started to build it (I am used to having the option say when an opponent starts building a wonder on, and didn't noticed it was set off in this game). I had to go for a space race then, because I was too weak to be a candidate at the UN. I would wait as long as possible before taking the GL.

A few turns after, the Japanese sneak attack me because of the empty cities I had founded on the other continent for luxuries. As I had for a long time something like 40 cavs just near Kyoto, I managed to take it and entered directly the Modern Ages. This leads us to my post in the third spoiler...

 

[SirPleb]

SirPleb - I think your link to the first spoiler is wrong

Oops. Alan, thanks for fixing it!

 

[Dynamic]

PREDATOR

Ancient Age

I entered in MA in 875BC by learning Horseback Riding.
I got Monotheism as my free tech and gift Babylon and Byzantines to the MA. They got Engineering and Feudalism. I exchanged with Babylon Monotheism – Engineering but Byzantines won’t to trade. I decided to wait because I not needed Feudalism at the moment. I started researching Theology and further to Navigation. I discovered Theology in 590BC, Education in 410BC, Astronomy in 250BC and Navigation in 130BC.

After discovering of Astronomy I could trade for luxuries with second continent but only 1 fur was available. I discover Navigation for 3 reasons: getting the maps, independent trade and exploring sea routes, waiting for AI get Gunpowder. At the 130BC I successfully trade for it. Further I discovered Chemistry myself in 10BC and gift it to the some AI in hope they research to Metallurgy. I went to Physics (90AD) and Magnetism (190AD) then Theory of Gravity (260AD). Japan learned Metallurgy in 190AD. Banking I bought from Babylon.

Egypt met me in 800BC but nothing to trade. My galley met Mongols and Japan in 430BC and a little gpt-trading was done. At last I met China when my galley turned around second continent in 110BC. I don’t know how exactly are trading other players but in my case I only got furs and some money from Japan. Before I met them all AI were backward in techs. I think they fought together and slowed its research. After I began trade with second continent AI stops its war and Japan began researching with appropriate speed.

In 670BC I founded Kutallu into the Babylon territory. This way I prepared the base for the future attack. For preventing the flip I rushed the library and placed some warriors in it.

All were fine. I peacefully developed my cities researched new knowledge’s, Babylon and Byzantines were gracious to me. I sent galley with settler for capturing horse on the NW coast. I didn’t take NE Iron because massive barb stacks moved from north to the Babylon city. Only luck of luxuries troubles me. But in 250BC I saw Byzantines archer traveled to Kutallu. I rushed longbowman just in case. But in the next turn this archer attacked me!!! My warrior “lucky” loose and unexpected GA not started. I kill archer by my longbowman but near apearen new Byzantines archer with warrior. I rushed several longbowmans in the nearest cities and wait. First I won’t ally Babylon to this war because want to stop it ASAP but some turns later I saw MI’s and understood my business aren’t good. And I allied Babylon to the war. But Byzantines very quickly captured Babylon town and attacked me again. Some turns later Babylon’s bowmans and longbowmans started attack against Byzantines. I even got GL from this war and create Army of longbowmans. I took Babylon’s city captured by Byzantines and stay with it. In 190AD Nineveh flips to me! During the second part of MA I got ~100gpt from different civs and set slider to 0.8.2. After several turns of war I decided not end it early because I got a big War Happiness from it.

I got Nationalism as my free tech. I gifted Persia (he just entered in MA at this time) to IA and He got Steam Power. I exchanged it. Babylon got Medicine but want Nationalism but I decided not give it to he at the moment. I also don’t gift other civs because Its science speed is not so good and I won’t they got Nationalism. After entering in IA I buy Iron from Egypt for railroads and decided to upgrade my 14 horsemen to knights and while I’m waiting for MT from Japan (I hope) capturing some Byzantines cities for Iron and Incense. I don’t know now when I will start war against Babylon (we have gpt deal) but I think I will go to the second continent after that. I will try to start my GA in the nearest turns.

My world in the beginning of IA:
Sorry, can't attach file.

 

[Dynamic]

I forget to say I built FP in Sumer in 430 BC, Leonardo's in 250AD in Sumer and Copernicus in Ur in 10BC.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Final Update
MA Update 0900BC-0870AD

0710BC – become Republic
0350BC – connect horses (iron earlier)
0310BC – meet China
0270BC – meet Mongols
0190BC – declare war on Babylon, Byzantines join for lots o’ gold (5 Knights, 3 MedInf, 4 Archers, 20 Enkido); however, I lose my access to horses and iron
0150BC – enter Golden Age (elite Enkidu attacks 1hp spearman, wins; also gets Great Leader!!)
0130BC – build Knight’s Templar
0010BC – declare ‘false’ war on Egypt via alliance w/ China; get Theology for only 581g
0110AD – get Gunpowder, only see saltpeter in enemy territory; next turn it appears in mine
0230AD – make peace w/ the Babylonians for 2 cities; they have 4 cities remaining
0310AD – declare war on Byzantines (7 Knights, 5 Crusaders, 20 MedInf, 3 Longbowman; 20 Horsemen)
0330AD – declare ‘false’ war against China (Japan, Mongols, Persia & Egypt join in the fun cheaply)
0450AD – get second great leader, create an Army of Crusaders (sort of, accidentally put a knight in it)
0510AD – see Persia start Newton’s University; check F4 & they have indeed entered the IA, I don’t even have Education
0520AD – peace w/ the Byzantines (also get Metallurgy for 240g)
0660AD – only 1 turn from Beijing, home of the Great Library, it is DESTROYED by Persia; so much for my propel forward in technology; start trading…get to Banking/Astronomy by trading up to Metallurgy

Now I decide to go for Domination victory. I had originally wanted to go for COW, but I don’t have time and I don’t want to mess with the IA Persians as every city I see has Riflemen.
0670AD – make MPP w/ Persians, will try to avoid war w/ them to the Domination Limit;
0670AD - attack Egypt (destroyed by Persians in 790AD)
0680AD – attack the remnants of Babylon (destroyed in 780AD)
0690AD – attack Mongols (destroyed in 830AD)
0760AD – attack the remnants of Byzantine (destroyed in 830AD)
0760AD – war vs China goes hot (destroy in 830AD)
0870AD – Domination Victory (never did get Physics)
Jason: 9828, Firaxis: 9930

This was a long, but enjoyable game. I was actually surprised to see Saltpeter in my territory. I thought Ainwood would have been super . Although I never did reach the IA, my 'good friends' the Persians did way back in 510AD.

 

[Aeson]

Predator. Barb fix.

I'm playing towards 20k.

Since I didn't post an AA spoiler, a quick rundown of my start:

- Moved Settler N to Dyes and founded my capitol there.
- Started with The Wheel to uncover Horses ASAP and figured it would be the best trading tech as well.
- Enkidu/Settler rotation from the capitol until the good sites were claimed nearby.
- Decided to use a city just SW of the start as the 20k site.
- Kept up with the Babs and Byzantines by trading The Wheel and Mathmatics for the techs up to Writing the turn after Byzantines got it (and before the Babs).
- Decided to try CoL before Philosophy as there wasn't much risk involved given that I was going to use the Great Library as my late AA early MA research. The Great Library prebuild couldn't be ready until I could have researched Literature normally after CoL and Literature if I went straight for it, and I wanted to grab at least one other AA wonder first anyways.
- Got the Philosophy->Republic slingshot in 1375BC.
- Turned off research after Literature and relied on the Great Library to take me into the Middle Ages.
- Sent Enkidus and Settlers to grab Iron/Incense that the Byzantines hadn't claimed due to constant war between them and Babylon.
- Sent Enkidus and Settlers to grab Iron and Horses up N, but ran into about a million Barb Horses and took a long time (and a lot of losing gold as they sacked my cities up there) to get the Horses and Iron hooked up.
- Sent off a few very early Curraghs, one of which made a crossing and eventually made contact with everyone else.
- Kept everyone at war with everyone possible, staying out of it. No civ has been at peace for more than a turn since shortly after Writing.
- Triggered my GA with HG and MoM combination.

In the Middle ages my goals were to take my continent with Knights, keep Egypt from ever building Zeus or trading Ivory to anyone, and to finish off the Domination limit with Cavalry.

Babylon and Byzantines had been at war constantly, so didn't pose much trouble. I got 2 Knight armies and a Leader I rushed the Pentagon with in the process, but because I overestimated how difficult the Byzantines would be, due to their having just barely gotten Muskets, I didn't get much use out of those Armies as they never could make the crossing. The third Army was waiting empty on the other continent as I had been leader farming the Egyptians while keeping their Ivory disconnected.

I had held back on research but the AI's were so slow I decided to push to Astronomy and then go for MT. So I researched Theology and Education myself instead of waiting for them from the GL. I filled the 3rd Army with Knights and used it and the LB rabble I had been leader farming with to take out the Egyptians who only had 4 cities. Then moved onto the Persians who fell rather quickly too, only having 5 cities. Also I finished off the Babylonians and Byzantines about the same time, having left them with a couple cities each to continue leader farming from.

The Mongols had mostly cleared out the Chinese by this point, and were in the process of doing the same to the Japanese. I needed an extra 5 turns after finishing the Persians to get to MT. The Mongols had just gotten Physics and so they had to be my next target or they were going to get into the Industrial Age, or worse yet, start building Wonders they were opening up with techs. When MT was finished I upgraded 20 Cavalry and took 3 cities the first turn. The Mongols were at war with the Japanese and Chinese thanks to MAs, so their backside was completely bare. I got a Leader for a Cavalry army which sped thigns up further.

I researched to the Industrial age, reaching it in 730AD. At that time the Mongols were down to 1 island city. The Chinese had 3 cities all with Cavalry stacks threatening. The Japanese had 11 cities, most of them on islands I wasn't able to settle first. I'm at 59% of the domination limit, mainly not to 66% yet as I'm being picky about which borders are allowed to expand and wanted to keep enough buffer to allow me to keep all the cities taken instead of needing to raze.

My 20k city has built so far:

1990BC Temple
1175BC Mausoleum of Mausollos
730BC Hanging Gardens
490BC Great Library
470BC Library
390BC Colosseum
270BC Cathedral
10AD Knights Templar
230AD Heroic Epic
280AD University
300AD Pentagon
390AD Statue of Zeus
570AD Copernicus

3 turns from finishing Newton. I'll also be able to get JS Bach, Shakespeare, and Smiths along with all Industrial and Modern ones as none of the AI can build them now. Should be a decent 20k date even though the terrain (almost all Grasslands with 3 plains) isn't terribly productive.

 

[AlanH]

Good to see you back, Aeson. Sounds like a high scoring game you're playing there

 

[solenoozerec]

While playing COTM8 I encountered a strange phenomenon, I was able to buy a lux from Byzantium twice (see this thread.

After I finished this game I went back to my saves to investigate this matter. In 70BC I had the following situation. I had an active contract with Byzantium for incense for 18 more turns.


However, our cities were not getting any incense because the trade route was through Babylon and I was in war with them.

I was not able to buy more incense from Byzantium, because I did not have a trade route.

IMHO at this point everything was normal.

The next save was at 90AD and I already had this problem:


I did not have any other saves in between. So I decided to replay this fragment of the game starting from 70BC save.

It seems that the problem started after I built first harbor and I have a hypothesis about what was going on.
My first trade was through Babylon. Since I was in war with Babylon, I was unable to get it. When I built harbor I still was not able to get incense from the first trade, but I was able to establish a new one. And this is what I did. As a result I got this situation.


If anyone wants to reproduce this situation, download my 70BC. Open it and rush a harbor in any city. Next turn you will find that you still have a deal for incense, but your cities are not getting any and you can make a second deal.


Later I found another problem:

Iron is clearly connected to Constantinople. Yet, I can sell it to Byzantium:

While playing this game I did not sell my iron to Byzantium. I understood that I missed a good opportunity only now, when I realized that they were ready to give so much (they seem to have iron anyway!).
I do not know how the situation with iron came to live. It may be not a bug if Byzantium is selling their own iron to someone else. But I do not know how to check it. The save at which I notice it is 660AD.
The closest normal save before this date is 570AD save.

Moderator Action: Fixed file links.

 

[juballs2001]

umm the iron part may be because the were trading it to someone else already, dont know about the rest

 

[Dynamic]

Now I leave my country for the business trip and don't know could I end my game or no.

 

[solenoozerec]

Moderator Action: Fixed file links.

I did not check them.

 

[SirPleb]

While playing COTM8 I encountered a strange phenomenon, I was able to buy a lux from Byzantium twice

I think something went went wrong before your 70BC save. At 70BC you had 18 turns remaining in your alliance with Byzantines which included incense. But you weren't receiving the incense and that should be impossible: either it couldn't be provided in the first place and therefore the alliance deal should not have been possible, or if the incense connection was broken later then the alliance deal should have been cancelled at that time. So I think there's a bug in something which happened before 70BC. Do you have a save file from a bit before making the alliance with Byzantines?

It seems likely that the subsequent problems with weird multiple incense deals are all fallout from that original problem before 70BC.

Iron is clearly connected to Constantinople. Yet, I can sell it to Byzantium:

I think this case is actually ok, nothing wrong. It looks like in 660AD you settled Kutallu 2 near the Byzantine border and that took one source of iron from them. I think it is a safe bet that before this turn they had two sources of iron and they were trading one of them to someone else. After you took that iron they were down to one and had to continue providing it in trade, leaving them with no iron for themselves.

 

[solenoozerec]

I think something went went wrong before your 70BC save. At 70BC you had 18 turns remaining in your alliance with Byzantines which included incense. But you weren't receiving the incense and that should be impossible: either it couldn't be provided in the first place and therefore the alliance deal should not have been possible, or if the incense connection was broken later then the alliance deal should have been cancelled at that time. So I think there's a bug in something which happened before 70BC. Do you have a save file from a bit before making the alliance with Byzantines?

Sure, I have earlier saves. I will check them in a few hours.
Are you sure that if a trade route is broken then my alliance also should be broken? I am not sure that incense was a part of that alliance deal.
Unfortunately, I do not remember what exactly was going on. I think normally civilizations do not agree to make an alliance against third civilization if none of you in war with that third civ.
Therefore, it is likely that I was in war with Babylon before I suggested an alliance to Byzantium. If so, I could not get incense as a part of this deal, because our trade route was broken.
More likely scenario is that I first sold a tech to Byzantium for incense, then declare war on Babylon and then made an alliance with Byzantium against Babylon. I know it looks stupid: make a deal for a lux and then break a trade route within the same turn.
No matter how stupid it sounds, this kind of behavior does not sound very unusual for my play style. Unfortunately laugh through cry
I do not think that it was possible to get incense as a part of that alliance, since the trade route was already broken.
On another hand if I managed to make this alliance before I got in war with Babylon, then it really sounds crazy because this alliance would cancel a trade which was a part of a deal.
I will replay this before 70BC and try different variants in hope to figure out what happened exactly.
I also will post an original earlier save, which is the closest to 70BC.

 

[solenoozerec]

I also will post an original earlier save, which is the closest to 70BC.

It happened to be 310BC save. It will take me some time to get to 70BC. Hold on.

 

[solenoozerec]

At 310BC I was buying incense from Byzantium and the deal was for 9 turns.
So I hit enter until the deal was expired. 1 turn before the deal expired I saved a game.
I got a message that we lost incense.
I went to Theodora and made a new deal.
After that my city were still getting incense
Then I went to Theodora again and ask for alliance. They agreed for 29gpt, but when I looked on F4, there was no incense deal anymore.
In other words I did not succeed to reproduce the problem. But SirPleb is likely to be right that the problem occurred before 70BC.
I will keep replaying this fragment of the game in hope to get it right (wrong actually). I will post here again when (if) I succeed.

 

[solenoozerec]

I will post here again when (if) I succeed.

Ok, I think I got it. So I first declared war on Babylon and than ask for an alliance and incense from Byzantium:

Apparently it looks like the problem is that a trade route is not destroyed after a declaration of war. It get destroyed only after the next turn.

So in order to get my situation download my 150BC save (please do not take it seriously , I was just hitting enter to get there). Hit enter, loose incense, declare a war on Babylon, then ask Theodora for alliance and incense in exchange for Theology and you will get a situation very close to what I had at 70BC in a previous post.
After that rush a harbor and you will be able to buy incense for a second time.

 

[SirPleb]

Hit enter, loose incense, declare a war on Babylon, then ask Theodora for alliance and incense in exchange for Theology

I also tried this: end turn, declare on Babylon, end second turn. And on the following turn incense is still available from Byzantines. It only becomes unavailable after getting Byzantines to declare on Babylon. It isn't just a same-turn problem. You've certainly hit a weird bug here.

This seems to be a previously unknown bug in the calculation of trade routes. I don't see any possible trade connection to Byzantines after you declare on Babylon - the incense should be off the table then. It is interesting that Byzantines have the Great Lighthouse. That doesn't result in a legitimate trade route since you have no harbors and no land connections except to Babylon. But it is suspicious, I would guess that the bug is related to Great Lighthouse.

Anyway we do now know roughly where things went wrong. Definitely a bug.

 

[AlanH]

Well done guys. We have a few more days until the game closes. We can transfer these posts into the bugs thread then. Alternatively you could post the general nature of the bug in that thread with a link to the details in this one, and making it clear that this is a COTM 8 spoiler. That way anyone following your link will know what they are doing.