Critical race theory

The title of the thread is "Critical race theory" and the OP asks a series of questions about critical race theory. Critical race theory is the academic work, so if you are taking the validity of the academic work for granted there is nothing to discuss: the answer is yes, the research is correct and valuable, and anything you've heard a Democrat say about it is probably just stupid.

You seem to be interested in a deeper inquiry than that - correct me if I'm wrong. But if I'm not wrong, it isn't a matter of "only historians can understand the theory," but it is to some degree going to be a matter of "only a person with a background in the relevant field is qualified to judge the methods used in a piece of research," similarly to how you would not trust me, who can barely write a line of code, to tell you how to improve a program you wrote.

Any research project has a phase where conclusions are drawn from the research data. It is entirely valid to question those conclusions as a separate thing from the data.

The other discussion is just a sidetrack...I really am trying to figure out if I can accept critical race theory's conclusions about society and history, and so far, the answer is that there are too many holes. Such an iconoclastic theory needs a solid paradigm that actually works...this one fails in two ways I have already identified, and without a lot of mental gymnastics.

I'm concerned that such a theory (with all its flaws) will actually take us a backwards. The right-wingers can point at its absurdities as evidence that the 'left' has come unhinged, and they will use it to continue to resist badly needed changes for leveling the field.
 
Any research project has a phase where conclusions are drawn from the research data. It is entirely valid to question those conclusions as a separate thing from the data.

Remember, if the conclusion is why then that is a what explaination, and experienced/expert interpretation is valuable because it trends towards greater competency. If the conclusion is ought, people confuse it with why. A lot. But that's a problem because everyone can draw an ought. Wisdom is a different type of smart.

that the 'left' has come unhinged

"Cultural excess" has more teeth, if you're looking for them. But not a new issue, that one.
 
If you're not questioning the research, what holes are you talking about being plugged? This isn't a dig, I genuinely don't understand the separation. Peoples' conclusions to the research are separate to the research. If the research itself draws its own conclusions (as papers can do), then that belongs to the research.

What holes do you think people are struggling to plug? If the research is sound, why do the conclusions need questioning? Whose conclusions need questioning?

1. How is it not racist/sexist to have the legal system grant additional rights to certain 'intersections' that are not granted to others? Isn't replacing one racist system with another kind of pointless?
2. How do you make the legal system more equal for black women without at the same time making it less equal for Asian women, if each intersection requires special and subjective treatment? Particularly in an adversarial legal system, what happens if they are on opposing sides? Do they get special rights only if they are in opposition to a white person or the government?

This is more about applying such a theory than understanding it...I think its application would result in some other group claiming privilege...
 
Any research project has a phase where conclusions are drawn from the research data. It is entirely valid to question those conclusions as a separate thing from the data.

Okay, so what critical race theory projects have you actually read? Can you give a specific example of what you're talking about?
 
Okay, so what critical race theory projects have you actually read? Can you give a specific example of what you're talking about?

Try actually refuting the issues with this theory I'm pointing out...can you?
 
1. How is it not racist/sexist to have the legal system grant additional rights to certain 'intersections' that are not granted to others? Isn't replacing one racist system with another kind of pointless?
2. How do you make the legal system more equal for black women without at the same time making it less equal for Asian women, if each intersection requires special and subjective treatment? Particularly in an adversarial legal system, what happens if they are on opposing sides? Do they get special rights only if they are in opposition to a white person or the government?

This is more about applying such a theory than understanding it...I think its application would result in some other group claiming privilege...
1. The same way it's not harmful to able-bodied people to legislate / mandate improvements to society for disabled people. Racism (for example) is prejudice against someone based on their race. It's not "we've given another demographic something on account of the contextual problems that are proven to affect them". I'm not being prejudiced against because somebody invested money in building wheelchair-accessible ramps in the building I work(ed) in.

(obligatory disclaimer that analogies are a poor discussion tool, but I'm a white dude trying to discuss pitfalls in application of rulings around race-based demographics, so, I go with what I know best)

2. I'm not a legal professional, so I couldn't answer that question. It's the definition of subjectivity. Why does murder have so many classifications? Why do sentences vary even within these classifications? In your OP you oppose subjectivity, but context and nuance are key to any specific legal ruling. You can't generalise that in reality. So the theory suggests something, and the application is a separate thing. Is there an actual example of the application that you find distressing? Because if not, your opposition doesn't seem to be to the theory at all. Which makes me all the more confused as to what issues you are actually taking with the theory itself.
 
Try actually refuting the issues with this theory I'm pointing out...can you?

I can't refute vague generalities; you need to make a real/specific claim. A good starting point would be you providing a specific source for this:

For example, some research was done on diplomatic communications and concluded that the whole reason for whites supporting the civil rights movement was to increase our standing with non-white countries during the cold war.
 
People will rise or fall based on their own hard work and perseverance (capitalism)

At any rate, claiming that only historians can understand your theory is not going to get you (or your theory) very far. In fact, that sounds awfully elitist...

Also I sorta missed this the first go-round but it is highly interesting that these two sentiments are apparently coexisting, since "historian" is simply a term for the one who has done the hard work necessary to understand the thing.

If you believe "elites" become so based on their hard work, then using "elitist" as a derogatory term makes absolutely no sense...
 
1. How is it not racist/sexist to have the legal system grant additional rights to certain 'intersections' that are not granted to others? Isn't replacing one racist system with another kind of pointless?
2. How do you make the legal system more equal for black women without at the same time making it less equal for Asian women, if each intersection requires special and subjective treatment? Particularly in an adversarial legal system, what happens if they are on opposing sides? Do they get special rights only if they are in opposition to a white person or the government?

This is more about applying such a theory than understanding it...I think its application would result in some other group claiming privilege...

This isn't what she's saying though. In fact this is precisely the opposite of the point she is articulating.

K. Crenshaw said:
Perhaps it appears to some that I have offered inconsistent criticisms of how Black women are treated in antidiscrimination law: I seem to be saying that in one case, Black women's claims were rejected and their experiences obscured because the court refused to acknowledge that the employment experience of Black women can be distinct from that of white women, while in other cases the interests of Black women were harmed because Black women's claims were viewed as so distinct from the claims of either white women or Black men that the court denied to Black females representation of the larger class. It seems that I have to say that Black women are the same harmed by being treated differently, or that they are different and harmed by being treated the same. But I cannot say both.

This apparent contradiction is but another manifestation of the conceptual limitations of the single-issue analyses that intersectionality challenges. The point is that Black women can experience discrimination in any number of ways and that the contradiction arises from our assumptions that their claims of exclusion must be unidirectional.

[...]

While it could be argued that this failure represents an absence of political will to include Black women, I believe that it reflects and uncritical and disturbing acceptance of dominant ways of thinking about discrimination. Consider first the definition of discrimination that seems to be operative in antidiscrimination law: Discrimination which is wrongful proceeds from the identification of a specific class or category; either a discriminator intentionally identifies this category, or a process is adopted which somehow disadvantages all members of this category. According to the dominant view, a discriminator treats all people within a race or sex category similarly. Any significant experiential or statistical variation within this group suggests either that the group is not being discriminated against or that conflicting interests exist which defeat any attempts to bring a common claim. Consequently, one generally cannot combine these categories. Race and sex, moreover, become significant only when they operate to explicitly disadvantage the victims; because the privileging of whiteness or maleness is implicit, it is generally not perceived at all.

Underlying this conception of discrimination is a view that the wrong which antidiscrimination law addresses is the use of race or gender factors to interfere with decisions that would otherwise be fair or neutral. This process-based definition is not grounded in a bottom-up commitment to improve the substantive conditions for those who are victimized by the interplay of numerous factors. Instead, the dominant message of antidiscrimination law is that it will regulate only the limited extent to which race or sex interferes with the process of determining outcomes. This narrow objective is facilitated by the top-down strategy of using a singular "but for" analysis to ascertain the effects of race or sex. Because the scope of antidiscrimination law is so limited, sex and race discrimination have come to be defined in terms of the experiences of those who are privileged but for their racial or sexual characteristics.

She isn't saying "this category is overlooked in discrimination," but rather that the whole paradigm of understanding discrimination as "define a category and identify some kind of effect or animus as measured against that category" is fundamentally wrongheaded and is precisely what leads to these bad outcomes. Adding a new category for "black women" doesn't actually solve the problem. Question 2 is also explicitly rejected in this passage because it's committing the same error, of thinking of discrimination as a maleffect rendered against some otherized deviation from the default. White men are "normal" and every other category is some deviation whose defect is seen as a handicap. Rendered this way, antidiscrimination is understood as applying some benefit to some category with "oppressed status" so that their "oppression coefficient" or whatever can be counteracted. But again, this isn't, per Crenshaw, the way oppression or discrimination should be thought about at all, both as regards white men beginning with no benefits, and as regards discrimination being the application of some complex table of handicap coefficients.

Finally, it's incredibly important to distinguish between the theory - which is an analytical frame used to make sense of and describe data - i.e. a descriptive tool - from prescriptions that might arise from its application in conjunction with some separate ethical framework. As I'm sure you know, there is a distinction in philosophy between descriptive observation and normative statements or prescriptions. Critical race theory is a descriptive theoretical framework. It is not an ethical framework and makes no normative prescriptions. Its practitioners might make normative prescriptions following from observations made with the framework, but those should not be confused for normative claims arising from the theory itself. And to bounce freely back and forth between the two is profoundly unhelpful both for you trying to make sense of the theory, and for us trying to help you develop that understanding.
 
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Doing only the most cursory reading on the subject, my cynicism says that a lot of these things are just bandied about to keep college professors employed. Race is a good third-rail issue to take up to justify the enlargement or even the existence of some otherwise redundant department.
 
So, someone please explain to me what makes this theory so critical and accurate.
It's just social "science" not physics. It's about writing books & editorials not truth. You don't have to understand stuff like this, just wait 10-20 years & they'll be new fads to pay attention to.
 
It's just social "science" not physics. It's about writing books & editorials not truth. You don't have to understand stuff like this, just wait 10-20 years & they'll be new fads to pay attention to.

Yeah, I agree. You know, 20 years ago they were saying dinosaurs had no feathers. Now they're saying they all had feathers. Give it another 20 years they'll be making up some new horsehocky. That's why I put paleontology in the pay no mind pile with the rest of the "sciences".
 
Many of the conclusions seem far fetched or exaggerated in some cases. For example, some research was done on diplomatic communications and concluded that the whole reason for whites supporting the civil rights movement was to increase our standing with non-white countries during the cold war. The research found something interesting, but that takes causation way, way too far. To be clear, the idea that the civil rights movement was a diplomatic endeavor is a conspiracy theory, not an academic one...
I mean, anyone who says that white support for black civil rights was primarily due to it making us look bad in the cold war is talking nonsense.
 
There Is Growing Segregation In Millennial Wealth : Planet Money : NPR

The problem persists. So how do you fix this problem without understanding CRT or Implicit bias? Its hard to fix something you refuse to even try to understand the mechanisms of. . . Considering all the bootstrapped responses coming in hot here, I'm a little reluctant to entertain the actual cordial discussion on the topics at hand. for example you state there is nothing for you to apologize for because of your race, but hardly anyone is actually asking for that, what they are asking is that we acknowledge our past with clear vision and work to make our nation live up to its ideals. Essentially until you make implicit bias disappear in the culture you cannot rectify most of the social problems that make your ideal society impossible. It is not possible to have a merit based system when innate racist biases and a long history of capital and political maleficence taint our current economic and political structures.

Here's a blurb on implicit bias. Fwiw it is also how I see a big chunk of the police problems these days as well, I blame more the escalatory nature of their training but implicit bias makes up most of the ground in the discrepancies against black men when it comes to law enforcement.

How to Think about 'Implicit Bias' - Scientific American
 
I mean, anyone who says that white support for black civil rights was primarily due to it making us look bad in the cold war is talking nonsense.

I think the historians were saying that the elite support for civil rights reform was from the pressures of not being the real "evil empire" during the cold war. Shout out to the rage against the machine album here. . . :p
 
I mean, anyone who says that white support for black civil rights was primarily due to it making us look bad in the cold war is talking nonsense.

I mean, it played a role. To say it was the only thing going on would be nonsense.
 
I mean, it played a role. To say it was the only thing going on would be nonsense.
I'd be unsure how much influence it had outside of the foreign policy establishment.
 
I'd be unsure how much influence it had outside of the foreign policy establishment.

Nixon was publicly embarrassed by the Little Rock school integration during a trip to Latin America. It was significant enough that he convinced Eisenhower to edit a speech to specifically address it. The modern usage of the term "whataboutism" emerged from the Soviet proclivity to use "and you lynch negroes in the South" as a rhetorical counterpoint to American accusations of Soviet antidemocratic practices.
 
Implicit bias
From what I've read implicit bias is mostly bs. Iirc in the early days they were trying to show it had some relevance but better put together studies showed the earlier ones were fatally flawed.

It's also a rather shallow & cynical view of humanity. When my mother met my old roommate I knew she'd judge her a bit for having tattoos & pink hair but despite my many issues w/ her I knew in a matter of seconds she'd be able to look past that & see her for her more substantive character aspects.

There are certainly some people who see other human beings as nothing but avatars/stereotypes but these are people on the dark-triad spectrum, this is not how normal human beings interact in an integrated society (on the internet it's certainly easier)
 
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