Having found a love for Civ 2 I've recently been playing the mess out of it, but find myself wondering if trees are worth it. Usually I turn them all to plains and irrigate them, should I be doing this? Also I find myself having a hard time teching up, I do trade, but it seems to have little to no affect on my economy and research.
Deforestation
- Thread starter gunpoint
- Start date
rrhal
Warlord
I usually leave the trees alone while I work on the plains and grass lands squares around the city. Once I need a place for my next citizen to work however the axes come out. Its not a bad deal to have a forest or two being worked but generally I want the trade of a road on a plains/grasslands square.
Market places, banks and libraries are all multipliers of the trade arrows you take in. Try to deliver your trade to a largish city on a different continent. If you open your science adviser before and after you trade you should see quite a difference in the progress bar of the tech you are researching.
Market places, banks and libraries are all multipliers of the trade arrows you take in. Try to deliver your trade to a largish city on a different continent. If you open your science adviser before and after you trade you should see quite a difference in the progress bar of the tech you are researching.
ColdWizard
Ancient
I usually terraform them to grassland (via plains) if there are hills or mountains within the city radius for production. As rrhal said, I like the trade arrows as well as the food.
I generally keep my forests, because settler/engineer time is usually a very valued commodity, and changing terrain type is rather lengthy.
Forests are very nice because you can work them immediately instead of waiting to mine a hill.
Before delivering a trade commodity, switch the source city production to trade (and then back again after delivery); this can give a nice boost in delivery income.
Forests are very nice because you can work them immediately instead of waiting to mine a hill.
Before delivering a trade commodity, switch the source city production to trade (and then back again after delivery); this can give a nice boost in delivery income.
RomeoTheCat
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Messages
- 221
I usually leave forests alone and work them for the shields.
I completely agree.
About tech and trade ... it took me a while to realize the huge difference planning makes in trade bonuses. I [almost] only trade overseas, with an AI, and with demanded goods [mostly hides]. I also switch city workers to arrow tiles as the Prof said. Those vans should usually give you over 200g [and over 200 beakers] and keep your scientists happy. Trade takes some practice though.
Ace
Emperor
I agree up to a point. If your going for a high score game, once you pass the midpoint of the game and your trade is well developed, shields become useless except to support engineers and as seed shields for new production, which will be rushed next turn. At this point, food is a much more pressing need and a forest yielding one food becomes a grassland/farmland yielding 4 food. Also, keep in mind, that in a large game with 100+ cities, each city s/b supporting at least 1 engineer and by the late game most cities should have their roads/RRs and farmland in place so you will have engineers to spare for transforming.
It really depends on your style of play and your goals for the game.
art vandelay
Chieftain
I transform forests (or any non-trade terrain) in the super science city zone only as the city runs out of trade producing terrain.
Terrapin
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2003
- Messages
- 505
I agree with Prof, Art and Ace if you put their advice together.
Early in the game, I would never spend Settler time transforming terrain, except around the SSC. Later in the game, as Ace suggests, shields become less important than food and trade. At that point, I have engineers (work faster) and I can produce and support them easily. Earlier in the game, when money is scarce, settlers are needed for expansion and basic work like roading and irrigating squares which are already being worked (or better yet, are just about to be worked) are my priorities, it just is not worth the time it takes to make those transformations.
Early in the game, I would never spend Settler time transforming terrain, except around the SSC. Later in the game, as Ace suggests, shields become less important than food and trade. At that point, I have engineers (work faster) and I can produce and support them easily. Earlier in the game, when money is scarce, settlers are needed for expansion and basic work like roading and irrigating squares which are already being worked (or better yet, are just about to be worked) are my priorities, it just is not worth the time it takes to make those transformations.
Hello all- just my second post here, although I've been a frequent visitor for some years. I love Civ2, and play it because it's a real challenge to "work" the rules and use them to your advantage, and because I find the 3D effect of Civ3 and 4 distracting. I like to work with flat maps.
Anyway - my approach is to leave forests alone, especially in the early stages - as Terrapin summarised. Shields ARE useful - buying units or improvements is relatively expensive - 2 credits for each uncompleted shield in the progress box. Terrain transformation is very costly - in 8 or 10 turns a settler or engineer can build a lot of roads, and irrigate several squares. It doesn't pay to be single-minded in Civ2 - as I've found over several years of playing the game.
It took me a long while to realise that trade is the basis for success in Civ2, and that roads, rivers and ocean are the basis for trade. Once I realised THAT, I concentrated on creating 2 settlers or (later) engineers for each medium-to-large city, but then saw that this could be a false strategy - they absorb both shields and food, and reduce the city size, so initially reducing trade and growth. A few settlers or engineers can service several cities, and when they've served their purpose, can found and service new cities. As I said, being single-minded doesn't guarantee success - usually just the opposite. Flexibility and balance are the keys.
Anyway - my approach is to leave forests alone, especially in the early stages - as Terrapin summarised. Shields ARE useful - buying units or improvements is relatively expensive - 2 credits for each uncompleted shield in the progress box. Terrain transformation is very costly - in 8 or 10 turns a settler or engineer can build a lot of roads, and irrigate several squares. It doesn't pay to be single-minded in Civ2 - as I've found over several years of playing the game.
It took me a long while to realise that trade is the basis for success in Civ2, and that roads, rivers and ocean are the basis for trade. Once I realised THAT, I concentrated on creating 2 settlers or (later) engineers for each medium-to-large city, but then saw that this could be a false strategy - they absorb both shields and food, and reduce the city size, so initially reducing trade and growth. A few settlers or engineers can service several cities, and when they've served their purpose, can found and service new cities. As I said, being single-minded doesn't guarantee success - usually just the opposite. Flexibility and balance are the keys.
Ace
Emperor
Hi Rambler,
Check out Starlifter's threads on "Power Democracy" and trade. Once you pass a certain point in the game, you can generate enough coins by trade, that you only need a few shields per city as "seed" for rush buying everything. And, by celebrating in Democracy, your cities will keep growing as long as surplus food is available.
Check out Starlifter's threads on "Power Democracy" and trade. Once you pass a certain point in the game, you can generate enough coins by trade, that you only need a few shields per city as "seed" for rush buying everything. And, by celebrating in Democracy, your cities will keep growing as long as surplus food is available.
gunpoint-
as I'm sure you've realized, "it depends". I tend to play the lower levels, warlord or so, since I play for the relaxation factor. (deity - been there, won that, not how I want to play at this time.) At those levels, you want to maximize your shields early in the game, then, after you've built your wonders and city improvements, switch to food production and grow your cities to get population points. Generally speaking, I'd leave the forests alone until you've built everything you need in any given city (unless you run out of food for growth). Once there's nothing left to build that will benefit your city, farmland those squares and grow the population.
as I'm sure you've realized, "it depends". I tend to play the lower levels, warlord or so, since I play for the relaxation factor. (deity - been there, won that, not how I want to play at this time.) At those levels, you want to maximize your shields early in the game, then, after you've built your wonders and city improvements, switch to food production and grow your cities to get population points. Generally speaking, I'd leave the forests alone until you've built everything you need in any given city (unless you run out of food for growth). Once there's nothing left to build that will benefit your city, farmland those squares and grow the population.
Personally I use the strategy of differentiating between what a city is supposed to do. If I build a city next to mountains/hills/forest (best if all within city radius) then I already know this will be a 50+ shield city after factory is build, and it will spam freights for free every turn.
If I happen to stumble into more forests, I just build cities that will function as additional industrial centers, producing and supporting military units-defenders of cities, so I don't have to put a drain on already drained low-shield cities. Within a group of 25-30 cities that I usually raise, these high-shield-yield (lol) cities number no more than 5. With power demo periods, if the other terrain allows, I will raise them to size 18-20 and leave them at that, maximizing shield output at the cost of food.
This strategy works pretty well, especially if you cease to build caravans to send for trade between tradeless technological periods that happen from time to time (like cumulating superhighways+airports), and at the same moment wish to build a vital wonder fairly quickly before the other civilization. That's were these high production cities kick in, they spam caravans to practically build the wonder the same turn you switch production in that wonder-building city, while not having to build airports/superhighways since they don't trade. Also, other cities don't have to divert their van from trading to wonder support since forested/hilled high prod cities do it all themselves.
Forests then provide 3 shields, need little time to work (only roads+railroads) so with factory and supermarket, a forest city (13 forest tiles, 4 grassland, 2 plains, forests railroaded, grass and plains farmed) gives a grand total of 60 shields and 2 surplus food, while still not utilizing all squares. Besides it doesn't take much time to raise a city to size 15 and build roads and railroads on forests. Other city improvements can be slowly build by the city itself, except maybe early supermarket that has to be rushed for high food production, as well as maybe factory once you start working first forest squares around size 4-5.
Simply said, I always try to use forest areas of at least 10 forest tiles, to build production cities there even in the early games, while single or two tiled forests, I usually remove once I notice the cities are grown up to 8 and need space for food production, while roads already connect them all for vans.
Forested cities have one big disadvantage. They pollute. A LOT. Without hoover+MT, its gonna be one pollution every turn on deity. Solar plant fixes these problems, but it is given by high end tech, at a point in game where your ship is mostly completed anyway (assuming SS game).
Here's an example pic of a forest city in discussion:
http://img444.imageshack.us/i/forestcity.jpg/
If I happen to stumble into more forests, I just build cities that will function as additional industrial centers, producing and supporting military units-defenders of cities, so I don't have to put a drain on already drained low-shield cities. Within a group of 25-30 cities that I usually raise, these high-shield-yield (lol) cities number no more than 5. With power demo periods, if the other terrain allows, I will raise them to size 18-20 and leave them at that, maximizing shield output at the cost of food.
This strategy works pretty well, especially if you cease to build caravans to send for trade between tradeless technological periods that happen from time to time (like cumulating superhighways+airports), and at the same moment wish to build a vital wonder fairly quickly before the other civilization. That's were these high production cities kick in, they spam caravans to practically build the wonder the same turn you switch production in that wonder-building city, while not having to build airports/superhighways since they don't trade. Also, other cities don't have to divert their van from trading to wonder support since forested/hilled high prod cities do it all themselves.
Forests then provide 3 shields, need little time to work (only roads+railroads) so with factory and supermarket, a forest city (13 forest tiles, 4 grassland, 2 plains, forests railroaded, grass and plains farmed) gives a grand total of 60 shields and 2 surplus food, while still not utilizing all squares. Besides it doesn't take much time to raise a city to size 15 and build roads and railroads on forests. Other city improvements can be slowly build by the city itself, except maybe early supermarket that has to be rushed for high food production, as well as maybe factory once you start working first forest squares around size 4-5.
Simply said, I always try to use forest areas of at least 10 forest tiles, to build production cities there even in the early games, while single or two tiled forests, I usually remove once I notice the cities are grown up to 8 and need space for food production, while roads already connect them all for vans.
Forested cities have one big disadvantage. They pollute. A LOT. Without hoover+MT, its gonna be one pollution every turn on deity. Solar plant fixes these problems, but it is given by high end tech, at a point in game where your ship is mostly completed anyway (assuming SS game).
Here's an example pic of a forest city in discussion:
http://img444.imageshack.us/i/forestcity.jpg/
Ace
Emperor
Shield production is very closely tied to War and/or spaceship production. Once you have built the spaceship and have reduced the AI to one "pet" city, there is no need for a city to produce more than 51 shields to kick out a freight each turn and leave one extra shield to support a garrison unit. When your trading to reach 255 future techs, it dosen't do any good to have a city producing 70 or 80+ shields because the shields over 50 or 51 are totally wasted.
It is an eye-opener, when playing a long game, because you start out pushing for shield production to speed-up building stuff, but, at some point, you realize that you only need 51 shields in your cities and food is more important.
It is an eye-opener, when playing a long game, because you start out pushing for shield production to speed-up building stuff, but, at some point, you realize that you only need 51 shields in your cities and food is more important.
This goes well assuming you aim at a particular way of ending the game and with highest rating possible. I'm mostly playing for fun and simply pointed out that forests can substitute hills on certain types of terrain. Indeed, longer more effective/efficient games probably require cities to produce no more than 51 shields, but then it's cutting it really tight, assuming you have already gained control over the ai and there will be no more wars that may disrupt vans' production by increasing the need for military units' support.
Anyway, again I believe this technique of using forests for production can often work out on some less than perfect conquest games or maybe even SS to a certain degree.
Anyway, again I believe this technique of using forests for production can often work out on some less than perfect conquest games or maybe even SS to a certain degree.
I like keeping one or two forests around in order to reach the most useful production numbers (5, 10, 20) when need be. They're especially important in coastal cities that have a lot of grassland; one railroaded forest can make up for three plains tiles if you don't have them.
