Deity cookbook I: Gilgamesh from Sumeria

[ABigCivFan]

Thanks Dirk for the hard work on the summaries.

In my game, 6 cities is enough to maintain a high research rate to:

1. Get to education early and get Oxford in capital
2. Win Lib race

After these 2 achivements my empire will be in great shape to absorb more filler cities and quickly bring them up speed with extra workers and trade routes.

About Iron, there is no pressing need for it. HE is unlocked, with 6 good production cities, I fully expect to crush Pacal with Trebs/Mace/phants before 1300AD. Note I will go for his capital first, as soon as I take Mutal, the Iron will belong to me. And then I would upgrade all the trebs to Cannons and we should be able to take over the continent quickly.

 

[Dirk1302]

I have edited in some of the suggested changes in the summary and i've added Turinturambar's save. I've also looked at long term plans (not beelining lib) and added this when the player mentions this plan. I'll continue to edit the Summary if more info comes up (and if it doesn't take too much work).

1 AD voting round is open now

I'd appreciate it if you can put the vote in bold, makes it easier to find them. Also a vote stands. If undecided just discuss the saves or put up a tentative ranking that can be changed afterwards (not in bold). I'll do it this way since i'm not totally sure. We'll continue the game after all votes are in, but not later than Wednesday 10 december. So to count a vote has to be in Tuesday 9 december.

 

[CellKu]

@ABCF:

Spoiler :

I looked into your saves and learned quite a bit from them. Thus, I would like to ask you some questions to improve my own play:

1.) Did you sell anything before researching CS or why are you able to research with a -35 deficit in your 1AD save? (Btw, that is a very good demonstration of research specialization with limited resources. I will re-evaluate my own game in that regard.)

2.) When did you start going full research in (most of) your cities ("building" research and assigning scientists)? Only just before researching CS? If I understood you correctly, you switched civics right before 1AD, but you did go full to research (except the 3rd scientist for whom you needed caste) before that, didn't you?

3.) You have quite some infrastructure in your capital, even though you assigned 2 scientist very early. Did you build most of that by chopping? I assume you had the 2 scientist the whole time.

4.) It seems that you built the granary in the capital rather late. Is that correct?

5.) Why did you build a monument in you capital? Wouldn't it be more useful to build something else? Do you see any need for monuments when playing a creative leader? (Well with the exception perhaps of Kish - I would agree with Kish having a monument since every culture point is needed there.)

6.) Why did you build cottages close to the lake at Eridu, right now these were the only tiles that you could farm and there were other grasssland tiles in reach with no fresh water for cottaging?

7.) Do you think it is better to found Tao yourself than to leave it to the AI to get some more cultural diversity there? Or do you fear the reduced trade value if you don't get it first?
Do you want to start the GA with a GS? If so, do you think it is better to use a GS for that GA now than bulbing?

 

[ABigCivFan]

@CellKu

Spoiler :

I looked into your saves and learned quite a bit from them. Thus, I would like to ask you some questions to improve my own play:

1.) Did you sell anything before researching CS or why are you able to research with a -35 deficit in your 1AD save? (Btw, that is a very good demonstration of research specialization with limited resources. I will re-evaluate my own game in that regard.)

There might be some trades with gold. Got some gold from Barb city, now rushing CS when the gold runs out.

2.) When did you start going full research in (most of) your cities ("building" research and assigning scientists)? Only just before researching CS? If I understood you correctly, you switched civics right before 1AD, but you did go full to research (except the 3rd scientist for whom you needed caste) before that, didn't you?

I went Caste and full research as soon as I got COL. Civil Serveice is a key tech worth going full research.

3.) You have quite some infrastructure in your capital, even though you assigned 2 scientist very early. Did you build most of that by chopping? I assume you had the 2 scientist the whole time.

No I assign scientists in capital only when needed. In this game:

1. Assigned 2 scientists as soon as i built the libarary to get 1st GS for Academy, and rushing Anesth. Anesth is another tech worth "rushing" since I needed other techs like IW, Alpha, Math ASAP and Anesth is the most efficient way to get all those in trades. That is why i had 2 cities running scientists and held off on Rexing until it is researched. As soon as the IW were obtained, I quickly settled the Gem/Rice/Stone city to work the rice and Gem.

2. After getting the 1st GS in capital, went back to build mode, it is hammer rich and was able to build/chop all infra/wonders needed. Early Math helped a lot too.


4.) It seems that you built the granary in the capital rather late. Is that correct?

Iirc I built it when I hooked up Ivory, it was at pop 5 maybe. Since additional growth requires aditional food, it was worth while to built it rather early to anticipate further happy cap increase. But not before I had a handful of Vultures.

5.) Why did you build a monument in you capital? Wouldn't it be more useful to build something else? Do you see any need for monuments when playing a creative leader? (Well with the exception perhaps of Kish - I would agree with Kish having a monument since every culture point is needed there.)

I was going for SOZ (at least for bonus cash) in the marble city and realized I need 3 monuments lol. But as soon as I had 3 monuments, Sul built the SOZ. Thanks to me trading Anesth to him early. Normally I do not built monuments being creative. But in this game, monument is only required in only my marble city for culture war.

6.) Why did you build cottages close to the lake at Eridu, right now these were the only tiles that you could farm and there were other grasssland tiles in reach with no fresh water for cottaging?

I built cottages in those places:

1. since Eridu was at happy cap so cottage was better than farm.
2. Workers would not waste a turn building there
3. Getting chain irragation in 4 turns will be able to farm the rest tiles in BFC



7.) Do you think it is better to found Tao yourself than to leave it to the AI to get some more cultural diversity there? Or do you fear the reduced trade value if you don't get it first?
Do you want to start the GA with a GS? If so, do you think it is better to use a GS for that GA now than bulbing?

I do not mind founding a religion since we are in a very good religious situation on our conti. we can share Jew with Sul and Pacal and able to go peaceful for a long time. But I checked log, some AI already found Tao. But I wuold still take 1 turn delay to research Meditation and Bulb Philo for trading possibilities since non of the AIs on my conti has it.

Yes, most likely I will start a GA using a GS as soon as I researched Civil Service to:

1. switch to Jewish
2. switch civics to Burea+Pacifism
3. With Caste I would be able to get 2 more GS out from 2 cities during the GA to double bulb Education
4. At the end of GA, switch back to Slavery+OR for infra/university whipping to rush for Oxford in capital

 

[CellKu]

Thanks a lot for your answers, ABCF!

 

[Earthling]

Ok, I'm not making this my final vote yet because I know the merits of discussion, but here is where I currently stand:

1)Dirk - Yeah, I know, with him being the host of this whole thing you'd think someone would have challenged his spot, but as mentioned maybe some lucky tech trading early on helped. To me, Dirk's game looked the most advanced in tech, music and currency plus everything else, and heading to CS. He got the GL, Parthenon, and he still pulled off significant REX. I think he was the only one with that ivory/fp city down there, and he had all the other important cities except for one where he's in a culture war with sulei.

2) ABigCivFan - Has the lead in Great Scientist production and the best combo of wonders I've seen in the capital. He is also far along in tech - about to get Civil Service, and missing a tech like Music isn't going to matter right now. The plan for a quick liberalism is solid though and looks very possible. Only downside is he has not expanded as far, losing the one food peninsula that many REX games had. Also, Spoilers, has not met Shaka!

3) Cellku-A quite solid game as well with both REX and economy. It probably would have been next anyway and I bumped it up instead of Snaaty's save.

Edit Dec 8: Don't know if it matters, saw Snaaty's discussion.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Dirk,

I suggest a easier way to summarize each report so that you do not have to do so much work here.

In the next game, reserve 4-5 post spots for each round of play summary. And when each player submit his report, he writes a simple summary following a guide line (e.g.) :

1. GNP
2. Sustainable beaker count
3. Base hammer count (Manuf. Goods from Dom chart)
4. # of cities
5. # of workers
6. Key techs
7. Key resources (Marble/Stone/Iron/Ivory and etc)
8. GP situiation, generated, used, planned
9. Military summary and HE
10. Key infra situiation, # of libaries, Univercities, Oxford, Forges, AP buildings and etc.
11. Diplomatic relations and religion situiation
12. Empire strength and weakness
13. Plans

And you could simply copy and paste these summaries into the reserved summary posts. This should save you a lot of work checking each save.

This is also easier for everyone going to the reserved post to compare summaries.

 

[Dirk1302]

@ABigCivFan,
Yes, that would help. I didn't mind making the summary though. When i was at the third save i knew more or less by heart which things i was looking for. Editing is a bit of a pain though, summary's so long that i frequently edit the wrong enty after which i had to load the save again to get the correct data back. I have to be more careful doing that. Some more spots instead of 1 for the summary helps with this too, i had decided that for myself already.

We discussed something like this in the discussion thread. Some things like research can't be quantisized that easily since some have specialists assigned, others don't.

Still i'll probably ask participants to do it if they have the time, it'll be more accurate and the plan'll be more clear. Less errors also. I can make an overview of map key spots to use for the summary and I can add missing entries myself afterwards.

 

[Dirk1302]

@ABigCivFan

I really like your save. The goals are clear, the position to reach this goals is very good. It hasn't as much land as some of the other saves but it makes a very compact and powerful impression.

I wonder a bit about the execution of the plan. From what you wrote your timeline supposedly runs like this

1. tech/bulb edu, capital builds HE and some preliminary units
2. begin unis while shooting for lib
3. take natio supposedly from lib begin Taj
4. Use the GA to finish unis begin Oxford, the other cities begin on units
5. Finish oxford, capital begins spitting out units 1 per ~1.5 turn
6. Kill Pacal

We're creative so it should be possible to get GT up in this timeline to draft backbone muskets Since the uni/oxford thing'll take some time there's also time to get to Mil trad with the good research, cuirassiers add a lot of security to the stack.

Stack'll look like cuirassiers/muskets/trebs with some other units mixed in probably.

I see one potential problem with this, the uni/oxford plan will take some time, in most of my games i get this combi up around 900 AD. Most of the unit building still has to be done at that time.This probably means that the strike can't begin before 1050AD with some 20 units, more units'd be better in which case the strike won't begin before 1100-1150 AD.

Now this may be too late. It's not sure how Pacal will tech but there's at least a chance he'll have rifles or other annoying things, he'll certainly have castles so you'll need a lot of siege.

Alternatively you could leave out the whole unis/oxford thing. this saves some 1500 hammers = 21 trebs, more actually since a significant part of these are HE enhanced hammers. The capital is not really a research monster so you don't miss out on so much,i think it should be moved later on in the game anyway. Leaving out Unis you could be ready for your strike shortly after lib i think. You'll have more units where you need less because Pacal won't be as ready 800 AD as he'll be >1000 AD.

Your stack composition could now indeed look like trebs/phants/pikes/longbows. These units are rather cheap and you'll have a lot of them since you can begin to focus on them right now since you have research and lib covered. If you build a really convincing stack of these i think Pacal will die fast in some 25-30 turns, maybe sooner. You have lots of land now and maybe some left over lib material to recover. Keep the capital updated with the most important buildings like a uni of course.

This save seems very well fitted for such an aggressive straightforward plan, it can be done from other saves too.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Dirk,

We do not have rich cottagable land on this map, so my main focus through 1000AD will be boosting research by:

1. Bulbing
2. Oxford (we have cheap libraries, and double Oxford prod speed)
3. Running scientists
4. Constitution/Representation

It is easy to achieve 2 since the 6 cities we have all have good prod potential with hills and food. Capital can build Oxford in 6-7 turns with Burea+Stone+Forge+AP hammers+engineer

We do not need to rush into a war. I want to achieve a high research rate and the above 4 points before the war and start the war when very close to Steel.

I re-evaluated the cities and found Lagash to be a better HE spot and focusing on troop building while Capital gets oxford and run scientists as the super science city.

My plan is to pre-build CR2 trebs/Mace + defending Phants. It will take 5-6 turns to reach and cature Pacal's capital, and 6-7 turns to claim the Iron (for upgrading to Cannon).

Once we have cannon, we can continue on to take over the continent with ease.

So here is the approximate execution plan (you had it laid out very close to mine):

1. tech/bulb edu
2. begin unis while shooting for lib
3. take natio from lib begin Taj
4. Use the GA to finish unis begin Oxford
5. Trade or self research Constitution and maybe even Optics/Astro
6. Switch to Representaion during GA, Finish oxford, HE and rush to Chemistry/Steel
7. Before the end of GA, switch to Theo/Vassalage/Caste work farms/workshops to mass build troops
8. Take Pacal's capital and gain Iron
9. Obtain Steel, mass upgrade Trebs to cannon and take over the continent

I am not a fan of drafting as it costs 2 pops per draft and takes much effort to set up the Globe, I could use those pops to work caste/hammer enhanced workshops. So i guess i would consider drafting only in an emergency or in very rare cases when my empire is extremely hammer poor.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Double post.

 

[Dirk1302]

Yes i can see this working, in this case you only need to take Mutal without cannons from there on you can continue with cannons, probably just defending Mutal for the moment which should be easy.I think the alternative i sketched has a good chance to succeed too.

Drafting btw can be very good. I've been very successful with it. It's a bit more difficult on deity than immortal to get GT up in time (since you need to strike earlier). If you have a really good GT you're really suffocated by the amount of units it generates though. Since it costs 1 pop you get 1 free unit/turn if the GT can support it food wise. Also it's often possible to draft 2 units from the not so great cities (better to leave the great cities intact) so you can get a big army fast.

From earlier games i've seen you play i can see you don't like it though. You seem to have a preference for very neat build ups relying on specialization/synergy/hammer multipliers. In comparision drafting and the ensuing unhappiness is rather a messy business. Nationalism isn't such a great civic apart from drafting too.

 

[Snaaty]

added a short round, up to 50 AD, to clarify some things about teching in my game...

add to my techs:
sailing, alpha, monarchy, callendar, phil (missed the reli by 2 turns or so... ...but it went on the other conti)

The reason I delayed techtrading (or more precise, trading away CoL) was the fact, that I wanted the phil monopol, which I have now (at least on my conti)

With phil I´m now equal in tech with the AI´s, which will very likely enable me soon to trade for currency, metalcasting and feuda (within the next 10 turns or so)

...

EDIT:
I will very likely simply play on from my save, so I will skipp the voting for this round...

 

[silverbullet]

My vote is:
1) Snaaty (3pt)
2) ABigCivFan (2pt)
3) CellKu (1pt)


Notes about my reasons: I think this game is winnable from many of the saves posted, so I chose the saves that seem more interesting.
Snaaty promises the option of a peaceful win, something that we don't see everyday on deity and I would like to see him do that.
ABigCivFan details a very solid plan going forward with tight execution and careful balance of expansion, research and production, and I would like to see how it turns out.

For my last vote I had a hard time choosing between CellKu and Dirk. I actually think Dirk's game is in better position, but I would like to see at least one game being played without marble. I hope CellKu will choose to continue his game for another round if his game doesn't win the vote.

 

[CellKu]

@Dirk1302:

Spoiler :

Your rexing is really impressive and maybe I should be bolder next time. ;-) Since I would like to know more about what you did, I would like to ask you some questions:

1.) How do you plan to sustain your research speed? In 3 turns on 100% your money will be depleted. Will you then go for an all-out research oriented economy - building only research and assigning scientists whereever possible?

2.) Why are Eridu and Kish so underdeveloped infra-wise, although you settled them quite early? Did you build workers there? Do you usually to a "worker-first"-approach in newly found cities?

3.) Why didn't you grow your capital more? Was it because you wanted to focus on research there?

4.) Great that you got the Part in Angel! Btw, would you have rexed so greedily (starting with Kish), if marble had been closer to the capital?

 

[silverbullet]

A general question regarding marble:
How would you play this game if you had no marble?
Part of the reason I didn't build an Academy is that without marble I didn't see a chance for the GLib. Without GLib it was hard to see the justification for an Academy in this production oriented capital.
Losing marble also makes the taj very expensive, so I assume a marble-less game will not include that wonder.

Some of you say this capital need cottages, other say you should not build cottages on deity without financial and without rivers. So, if you have no cottages, and no marble, where will the beakers come from? For those who built oracle, metal casting and some bulb trading can carry you through the initial game, but what do you do after liberalism?

 

[CellKu]

A general question regarding marble:
How would you play this game if you had no marble?
Part of the reason I didn't build an Academy is that without marble I didn't see a chance for the GLib. Without GLib it was hard to see the justification for an Academy in this production oriented capital.
Losing marble also makes the taj very expensive, so I assume a marble-less game will not include that wonder.

I had the same thoughts about the academy - or better about not building it in the capital. However, if I would continue my game and produce research in that hammer-rich capital an academy might still be good idea. Research by hammers is also multiplied by the acad., is it not?

Some of you say this capital need cottages, other say you should not build cottages on deity without financial and without rivers. So, if you have no cottages, and no marble, where will the beakers come from? For those who built oracle, metal casting and some bulb trading can carry you through the initial game, but what do you do after liberalism?

silverbullet, you raised a good question. I am still thinking about that. As it is now I think I would go for an approach that USun demonstrated in one of his games. Building farms and workshops, and then building research in the cities and try to get more GS until lib. After lib use the hammer rich cities to mass-build units and start a war with a neighbor who has cottages and well-developed cities. Though, I wonder whether I could be fast enough for that...

 

[CellKu]

Another double post - don't know what happened here...

 

[CellKu]

For me it is also between ABCF, Dirk1302 and Snaaty. Here my thoughts and a - so far - tentative vote.

All made good rexing and got some important wonders.

City-wise I like Snaaty's the most. With Maggyar and Lagash, he got some vital city-spots that the others didn't get. Dirk's Angel is nice and really greedily rexed. ;-) But it seems a bit isolated from the rest of the empire. I think Dirk1302 has to make sure that in a potential war he is swift enough to shrink the front-line there as fast as possible.

Tech-wise, I like ABCF's the most, so close to CS and with (almost) 3 GS. Dirk1302 is also quite good in that respect. I am not sure whether I would have gone for music instead of starting to research CS, but it seems it paid off - so I would like to see how it continues. While ABCF will make it in a few turns to CS, I wonder how long it will be for Snaaty and Dirk1302 with the money they can spend for deficit-research (when breaking even Dirk1302 needs about 27 and Snaaty 46 turns, if I am not mistaken - Dirk1302 can reduce that number with three turns doing 100% research, but then
the money is depleted). Do you have any plans how to keep the your research-rate high enough? I worried a bit about how Snaaty would trade himself back into the tech-cycle. But apparently he did this quite nicely. So that seems okay now.
Btw, I think we should also take into account the tech-situation relative to the other AIs. In that regard, it appears that they are most advaced in Dirk's game, with Pacal already having CS. So, Dirk has to be quicker with regard to the lib-race.

Infra-wise I like ABCF's the most, with Snaaty following closely. Having some developed cities is not to be underestimated.

So, I would rate the games as follows (this is only a TENTATIVE vote, as I am open to counter-arguments - if I don't change it until the end of the voting session, please consider them final at that stage):

1. ABCF - 3 pts
2. Snaaty - 2 pts
3. Dirk - 1 pt

 

[CellKu]

Sorry, double post.