Deity cookbook I: Gilgamesh from Sumeria

[CellKu]

@Dirk1302

Spoiler :

I guess you're going to assign scientists in Eridu asap to overtake the prophet in Uruk. Enough time to do that . Silver in capital's not bad either.

Spoiler :

Indeed, getting the two scientists in Eridu up fast is the idea!
The silver in the capital is really nice, but now I have to ponder whether I grow first or start worker-settler production... With the forge I could grow to 8 already. And when I am there, I will hopefully be able to switch to HR. However, I think I do need some workers now. I learned that to have many workers early helps you a lot.
What would you suggest with regard to techs? I am still undecided, but am inclined to go to Literature again. On the other side, since CoL has already beenddiscovered, the other AIs won't prioritize it as much, so I could trade that around as well and would be in a position to bulb philo.

 

[Dirk1302]

@CellKu,

Spoiler :

Your position's really solid, the land's already blocked and you don't plan on a rex like i did. so you have quite a few options and you're not in a hurry to do things like i am. I'd certainly build a few workers and i'd aim to have at least 5-6 cities up 1 ad on the best positions.

You don't have marble but that doesn't mean the NE isn't important. So i'd go to literature asap to start building NE. Try to get currency in trade on the way. I'd pass on GL/Parthenon as i think they're too expensive without marble. You'll be able to build NE quick anyway since you'll have time to grow the capital. I think cottages in the capital's not worth it pre PP, it takes forever for them to grow to town and non river villages are only 3c. So i'd farm the capital so you can put some 6 scientists to work. You won't miss GL that much with a farmed capital. I'd leave the scientists in Eridu, you'll get a second GS ~ 200 AD iirc so you can switch to pacifism then.

 

[Snaaty]

@ Dirk:

Spoiler :

Well, I always try to build the SoZ when I have phants because (more or less in order of importance):

1. it is sooooooooo painfull to wage war against an AI who has Zeuss (simply to prevent a neighbour building it)
2. It really boosts you power early on (think it equals 4-5 axes), and therefore helps to keep you save
3. Culture, like you mentioned (I always try to build it in a borderland city)

I also have considered building the pant, because of culture and the GPP boost (both wonders come at the same time), but with the GLib and the NE I get enough GPPs and for the points above I decided to go for Zeuss instead

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Snaaty:

Spoiler :

Hi! I am amazed by your rex and the distance you settled your cities... how can you afford that? I can't see the save for the moment, but I count 4 cottages in your last screenshot... have you more cottages than that? i assume you were working the gems since they are mined... i read your strat articles and try to be as precise as possible regarding worked tiles and roads (to have the trade routes asa cities are settled) but I can't really expand as far as you did no matter what I do!
Last question: how do you handle the military? In my game, I voluntary forget military and tried to focus on diplo as there is no way anyway I can defend against Pacal or Suleiman...

@Cellku:

Spoiler :

Have you seen Pacal in my game??? It's my first attempt at deity but in immortal he is usually a nice little boy... here, he is going crazy... I hardly see how to overcome his military in the near future...

Cheers

 

[Dirk1302]

@Snaaty

Spoiler :

Agree with 1, fighting an opponent with soz is painful. I once took on Joao who had Soz on the other end of his very large empire. Had to whip my proud capital from 20 down to 4 in that game. The culture's very important too. As for 2. it boosts your power but probably not enough to put you over the threshold where ai's don't declare on you anymore. And as long as you're below this threshold it doesn't help one bit in avoiding a declaration as some posts by DanF suggest. Aren't your neighbours pleased with you btw?

 

[Earthling]

@Snaaty

Spoiler :

As soon as I read your last update I suspected you had one of the best positions out of all our games (of course not everyone is in yet). The Rex is quite impressive and the barbarian cities fill it out to boot. I do like to see how the games between different people have turned out quite differently (and up to 1 AD is probably the biggest deciding timeframe in the game, for where things go). Suffice to say, everyone in your game is certainly much further along in tech.

@Dirk, RRRaskolnikov

Spoiler :

Well, really the point from RRRaskolnikov is just something I wanted to comment on quickly, in my game Pacal was a madman too. Dirk asked why I thought the war was necessary, and here's a better part of it (if you haven't seen the save):

For some reason, in my game as I found out both Sal and Zulu only have like 4 cities. They both got massively outexpanded/cut off/something happened early on, but like I said by 1000 BC Sulei and especially Pacal were the powerhouses. Then, I hadn't rexed as much and knew I would be in trouble later on; however, one advantage it seems I might have had over the other games you guys played is getting higher production up much quicker (didn't spend any hammers on wonders, either) so I could get that military out.

As for the current situation:

1) Happiness
-The major problem is due to the AP vote, came in literally 1 turn ago, that caused -5 in all my cities. In the save I currently have units en route for military police, so my cities won't have to starve (though 1 whip may be useful, especially in the cap.)
-Someone out there (maybe Shaka) I think just came up with a happiness resource available. I'll trade for that for another +1
-It might be prudent to take a turn of anarchy right here at 1 AD for time to get things fixed. I am not just doing this as something cheap; there is also a real reason coming up to be discussed.

2) Money
-Part of the problem will be fixed literally before the end of the turn - get citizens back working in my cities and I'm around breaking even (at 0%)
-Capturing the next city should net a solid 100+ gold, should last most of the rest of the war
-Remember, Pacal's next city also contains the Jewish shrine. I don't know exactly but given how he spammed missionaries I'm guessing it's easily worth 20 or more gpt
-I already have zig's: most of my cost is currently in units. The good news is, after the war I'm not paying supply costs for units in enemy territory

3)Technology
-The other continent (I'm assuming there is one, could just be folks I haven't met) are the ones who founded Confucianism and Taoism. Once I can, I'm researching CoL, which might be tradeable
-Even if CoL doesn't work out, I'll have a scientist eventually who will pop philo, which I can then trade for many important goodies like currency
-Possible techs in war settlement, hard to say what could happen with that right now

4)From Hell's Heart, I Stab at the AP
-Not kidding about how much I hate that building, it's at the top of my list of worst game mechanics. This game's a perfect example of "why don't the effects of votes scale with time?" 500 BC and you have axes = -5 happiness (huge) 1900 AD and modern armor = still -5 happy (barely anything!)

So, how do I go about getting it off my back. I'm actually not entirely sure, and the answer will probably influence how well the next turnset could work out. Some questions:
-If I convert to Hindu and then capture the building (again, in the next city) will the AP convert to Hindu?
-If I capture the city first, and then convert, does the AP convert?
-If it is possible in my situation to get the AP to change religion, does this take effect immediately?
Kick Sulei and Pacal out, they can't propose more resolutions?
-If we decide to play someone else's save and later I just raze Pacal's cities and salt the earth, will I feel a bit of catharsis?

And Finally,
5) Excitement: 1 AD is really a perfect turning point in this game. 10 turns from now we'll know whether it's in good shape due to a successful war or it is lost. I think the suspense is at least part of the fun.

 

[Rusten]

I don't think getting the SoZ to prevent the AI from getting it is that important in 3.17. In 3.13 WW was a big problem, but with the new patch it's not that big of a deal.

Agree with 1, fighting an opponent with soz is painful. I once took on Joao who had Soz on the other end of his very large empire. Had to whip my proud capital from 20 down to 4 in that game.

Was this 3.17?

 

[carl corey]

The AP doesn't change religion once it's done. It starts in the state religion of the one who finishes it (which begs the question, can you build AP if you don't have a state religion, and if yes, what religion is it going to be for?) and stays that way. Unless you raze the city in which case bye-bye AP.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Rusten , don't think so. It was an immortal student game played as Charlie, quite some time ago.

 

[Munch]

Wow, this thread is excellent. A lot of good strategy here, should help me streamline my early game (just won for the first time on Emperor).

 

[Dirk1302]

^Thx, you're on your way just having won emperor .

@Earthling, you bring up some good points in your post. I'll have to take some time out to comment on it. I'll probably do that when we get to voting this weekend.

 

[Snaaty]

I don't think getting the SoZ to prevent the AI from getting it is that important in 3.17. In 3.13 WW was a big problem, but with the new patch it's not that big of a deal.

Was this 3.17?

You might be right... ...but I was so pissed with ww in one game, that from then on I simply always tried to build the SoZ when I have access to phants (and never checked for changes in WW mechs due to patches)

I still think power matters for declarations. I cant testify on it, but it seems at least my experience. Besides, you can buy back peace cheaper when you aren´t that weak

...

Keeping that in mind, maybe the Panth would have been the better option, but I´m still a little undecided about it

Some gamspecific answers:

Spoiler :

The techspeed in my game might be faster, because the mighty two (Sul and Pacal) haven´t expanded that much (the biggest AI has 8 or 9 cities or so) and also they share the same reli (which I can safely accept once pacifism is in... ...then I basically can lean back and builder and tech along). I also don´t see a real problem researchwise in my game, with Phil, I can get all the nice techs I want (currency, calendar) and with some plantations and more cottages research will explode pretty fast. I already had planned to turn off research after Sailing is in and Monarchy can be traded to wait for more cottages, libs and scientists to start researching again...

Concerning expansion and upkeep:
Overexpansion is relative... ...once you can build cottages and hire scientist you almost can recover from any situation. Playing along the formula: more land = more cities = more research usually works fine for me, even if I have to dump research completely for some some turns.

Here we are even able to expand more, because courthouses (ziggs) already come in with Priest and that can be researched even at 0% research with some scientists if you are already broke (I whippchopped some ziggs ASAP. This was the main reason for me to capture both babcities ASAP, because I used the bounty to sprint to Priest and after the first 2 ziggs were in (prechopped some forests, took 2 or 3 turns or so to get them out after helping some more with the whipp), I was in the green again = not loosing money at 0% research...)

 

[Dirk1302]

Not according to DanF, i've looked at the code he's writing about myself too and i'm 99% sure that he's right. It's really the threshold value that matters.
But you might well be right about getting peace cheaper, i don't remember DanF writing about that.Also for my own reference i'll post a link to the thread where DanF posts his conclusions, the bulk of it begins here on page 5 of the thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7190899&postcount=84

There are also some interesting observations by him on page 4.

 

[silverbullet]

Not according to DanF, i've looked at the code he's writing about myself too and i'm 99% sure that he's right. It's really the threshold value that matters.

I am 100% DanF is right. Power doesn't reduce the probability of getting declared, unless you can get 1.5 times the power of your opponent (which automatically cancels it) or something close to it that vary among leaders.

But you might well be right about getting peace cheaper, i don't remember DanF writing about that.

I am not sure about that either. I think the main factor for getting peace is the kill ratio. If your opponent lost more units than you, peace will be cheaper, but haven't looked into the code, so power rating might play a role too. This is why protective becomes valuable on higher levels. With walls and CG2 archers you might get the warmonger to even PAY you for peace , after suiciding so many units on your border city.

 

[Rusten]

Getting confirmation about power not having any influence in most scenarios is another reason as to why I often try to get the Oracle on deity now. If you get MC/CoL and trade for some other techs you can successfully bribe civs like Shaka/GK/etc against other civilizations. With the Oracle you can often control the game in situations where you'd be stomped or left to chance otherwise.

Most of the time it's not necessary and you usually have to make the decision before knowing whether you'll need it, but it's one of those things that can save an otherwise lost game. Personally I get much more satisfaction from winning games that require a special strategy rather than the straightforward ones.

The biggest disadvantage is that you can find yourself losing some good city spots. However, if you finish the Oracle successfully the tech you aquire can keep you going for a long time with proper tech brokering. You can afford to kill your research and do some sort of early war to grab land -- for instance horse archers.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Rusten, i know your preference for special strats, especially the cav/airship combo you came up with some time ago was very original and successful. If you go for oracle very often it won't be a special strat anymore though. I think on this map it was a very good idea since the tech path leading there was attractive and there was never a risk of getting boxed in so losing the wonder doesn't mean losing the game.

There are maps though where i'm almost sure it's a bad idea and some where it's indifferent at best. And even if the gambit fails it's costly i think since the money usually won't compensate you for the not optimal tech path and the lost hammers. This is the reason i usually don't go for early wonders, it can win but also lose games for you.

 

[shyuhe]

Played to 1 AD. I don't think my save is worth continuing though

Spoiler :

Tech order: mining -- BW -- AH -- pottery -- writing -- masonry -- mysticism -- polytheism -- priesthood -- aesthetics -- IW (trade) -- alpha (trade) -- fishing -- math (trade) -- sailing -- literature -- currency -- monarchy (trade I think) -- calendar -- CoL (2 turns)

Wonders: Pyramids and GL (via GE) both in Uruk. Also an academy in Uruk.

Wars: Shaka declared on Saladin. Saladin declared on Pacal. Shaka declared on Saladin again (recently). However Shaka is now down to 2 cities and none of the other AI have his cities. I think there's a massive AI out there that I haven't met yet, which concerns me.

I'm also a Jew in my game. Saladin is the only non-Jew and I'm not his worst enemy. Plus he's already at war with Shaka.

My cities:

Spoiler :

My empire:

Spoiler :

 

[ABigCivFan]

To 1 AD:

Spoiler :

Settled in place

Tech: mining-BW-hunting-AH-Pottery-writing-Aesth

capital hammer rich + copper was able to build 2 settlers and Vutures quickly. initilal Warrior got to Woods2, was able to explore quite well.

Settled 2nd city right next to capital to claim fish and cow and run 2 scientists ASAP. Also run 2 scienties in Capital to rush Aesth.

1480BC: Settled Marble/Ivory/Horse/Cow city. Sent a worker along this settler, and immediately the worker chops for another worker. Many tiles to improve quickly here.



1040BC: Attacking a barb city with high odds. vultures are great for early game for protection and barb city capturing.



900BC: Capturing 2nd Barb city, unlocking HE.




900BC: Tech trading. Got IW/Poly for Aesth from Pacal the previous turn, Sul did not have IW, now able to get Alpha+Sailing to improve trade income.




1AD: Techs: Traded for Monachy for COL. running Caste+HR now. next Civic switch will be Burea+OR. 4 turns to CS.




1AD: Empire view. 4 core cities settled, 2 captured. enough for Oxford. Will Fill more cities after Bureac/chain irrigation on line. Some cities building beakers.




1AD: Capital. Had Marble and Stone, missed Mids, but built GL and Hanging Garden here, has Academy. I built Parthenon in the Marble city. Running HR+Caste System to hurry CS. 1 GS waiting to bulb Education, another GS born in 1 turn might bulb Edu or Philo.

The plan is early Bureac and prob HE in capital to crack out some troops. This capital has 20 base hammer, with 150% bonus in troop production will be 50 hammers/turn or 1 LB/cats/turn. this early it can produce troops as fast as 4-5 cities.



After building HE, will have more troops for protection, prob some protective LBs. A quick war against Pacal is also an option, but Main focus will be on Oxford first.

Economy is in good shape, I am shooting for Lib/Nationalism - Constitution(representation) to run a temporary SE since I could support many scientists. We have enough land to grow peacefully, but will watch diplo and get Sul/Pacal pleased.

Summary:

6 cities
7-8 workers (not sure)
wonders: GL, Parthenon, Hanging Garden (good Engi pts in capital)
decent tech rate, CS will boost empire a lot, HE immediately follow in capital.
2 scientists Bulb Edu, rush Oxford. Boosted by Parth, will get another GS soon, might start a GA to switch religion, civics, rush universities and might even run Pacifism to get more GS.
Trade for Calendar/Currency, boost happy cap and commerce and resource trading.
Possiblly a Renassance war against Pacal but will see.

Diplomacy:
Both Sul and Pacal favor HR. Sul will be pleased soon and wont DOW me. I will also switch to Jewish soon as expected so he will be friendly for good tech trading. Pacal will be weak, wont be a threat.

[Edit] I probably will switch to Meditation to allow Philo bulb this turn see if i could found Tao (not sure), this way I will be able to Start a GA and run Pacifism while do all the switches and generate 2 more GS. This should only delay CS by 1 turn.

 

[Dirk1302]

@ABigCivFan, glad you joined us at last Seems you're well placed.

@All, I'll wait until CellKu's save's in tomorrow. Then i'll make a summary of the 1 AD saves ( i won't make one of the 1000 BC saves, things haven't changed so dramatically from the 1800 BC positions). Then we can start voting. Notify me if submitting the 1 AD save isn't possible tomorrow.

Until 1 AD

Spoiler :

Research sailing but set research to 0% waiting for the academy. I only make +7 gpt, Kish is really costly. Then suddenly Sulei gives me alpha, good man . Wow that really helps. My mind is made up now, i'm going to keep Angle. I trade Alpha to Pacal for IW, i gift it to Shaka who's almost done researching it and Sal who goes from annoyed to cautious. At least i can trade with him now.

I set all my cities to produce research now. Together with some money i saved i can get currency in 10 turns now.Annoyingly i couldn't trade for Math. The money won't hold out though. So i capture Angle now losing no units. The money i get covers 5 from the 10 turns researching currency.

Next my units are on to Ghuzz the 3 dye,1 banana city. I'm just too late to replenish the money in time. Slider drops from 100% to 10 % with a small loss.I still get 40 bpt from scientists and to research converted production. Next turn i take Ghuzz and now i finish currency in 3 turns. Trade for monarchy and gold.

Set research to aest, i have marble so i'll take a shot at the GL. Get it 5 turns later and set research to masonry. i trade currency for math, poly and some gold. I don't know if it'll work but i start the Parthenon in Angle. If it doesn't work i'll get useful gold,if it works it's good for gpp and it'd help enormously with the cultural situation in Angle. Pacal and Sulei have aest already but they don't have marble and they don't delibarately chop trees for wonders (i think).

Actually i build Parthenon quite fast with some production i got in Angle and chopping 4 forests. That's a job well done. I had already pre chopped near the capital, it's no problem to chop GL there now after researching Lit.

No one has Lit at this moment. This gives me an opportunity, i'll try for Music, it's a very good trade tech, worst case scenario is i'll get Col and money for it. I really hope for the artist though. I had left all my cities producing research to heighten my chances for Part,Gl. I keep doing this while researching Music which i'll get in 9 turns. It all comes off, i'm first to Music and get the Great artist. Things have been going very well but then Sulei Culture bombs near Angle. For the moment i lose almost all my floodplains there. I think i can regain these tiles in time by building a few monasteries, assigning some artists after drama or in caste. Together with the Parthenon i think the culture bomb effect'll fade in ~500 years. Alternatively the great artist can be used to counter. Settling is probably a better option than counter bombing but i think Angle can manage on it's own.

I'm going for a second cultural fight with Sulei near the Banana fish spot. I had to hurry for this spot otherwise Sulei's borders would have popped again denying me the spot. I'll at least get the fish. I'll have to fight hard for the banana though. I still think i can get that too eventually as there'll come a time i'll have 3 cities pumping culture into that tile. It may take a while though, it's probable Sulei'll get his second border pop there before i get my first. I'm sure going to get a lot of culture there, Ziggurat, granary, library and then monasteries and building culture(Music is good for this too.). Once i'll have the Banana it's a very good city, come to think of it it's not that bad now. 100 BC i capture Bactrian a city in the north west with rice. I could have razed it but i decide to keep it, it'll cost a settler otherwise later and i'll have tons of other things to build in the near future. It'll cost me now but if i can get the rice up quick i can chop next and get Moai up here. I think it's worth the extra maintenance also since i'll bulb so much techs that i'll have a good trade position for some time to come.

So how do i stand 1 ad:

On the good side:

I have 7 cities which is ok 1 AD. Tech wise i'm making ~130 bpt now at an enormous loss of money though (~50 gpt). I break even with the slider on 30 % making 66 bpt. My cities are still producing research though so the actual output is lower than this. I haven't built a single Ziggurat so there's room for improvement.

I have a great artist and a GS now. I have to grow the capital a bit and part research CS till i can trade music for it with Pacal ( he hasn't started researching Music yet).. Then i'm ready to bulb philo, start my GA, do the civic switches and get ~4 GS in 15 turns. So lib should be save.

I have staked of af huge chunk of good land, it's probably enough for a winning space race. or a good push against Pacal/Sal probably after AL.

Apart from Pacal i have a tech lead on every one.

On the bad side:

I have been culture bombed

I can't get Calender atm. Well i'll chop/road the resources first so i can get them up fast once Calender come in, should be soon.

I don't have a single cottage, one idea is to go full SE farming every thing in sight. I'll have constitution pretty soon after lib. Once i have constitution i can run scientists to get me to demo. Then it's best to cottage all the green tiles i think. Cottaging now is even more too slow than it was earlier..

I have 7 workers for 7 cities. Not enough, especially not on this map. For these cities alone i need some 14 workers, i'll found more cities once i have maintenance under control so i have to get 20 + workers. The sooner i'll build them the sooner i'll have the land developed.

Infra is virtually non existent in the cities, together with the previous point it'll take some time to get this empire self supporting, luckily we'll have bulbing power to get us through the bad years. If i farm the capital i can really get a truckload of GP's. Granaries/libraries/Ziggurats are most important now i think.

It's not clear but it's likely that i need to hurry up a bit as Pacal is quite advanced with philo/CS already in the pocket. If he goes the paper/edu route i'll have to be quick with my GA ->scientists assignment. I don't think Pacal can beat me to lib though.

Concluding, long term prospects are very good. But there's quite a bit of work to do now.Diplo is save with Pacal friendly, Sulei pleased.Sal's the only Hindu in a Judaist world, he's cautious with me but he'd need galley's to reach me. There's been a lot of fighting already, Sal hates Pacal and Shaka and has been at war with both already until the Ap stopped them. It's almost sure to recommence soon and Sulei'll probably join at some moment. I could go to war myself in the future, He is unlocked. The way i did things settling peacefully seems more logical. After AL this empire could be a good war machine since i'll have many cities by then.

Overview:

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@ABigCivFan: nice start! Have you intermadiate saves so we can look at how you do?

@Shyuhe: Why do you think your save is worthless... situation seems quite OK ... perhaps that my inexperience at work

Cheers