Deity Level Succession Game

[Jokemaster]

Back from vacation, and needless to say I am pretty impressed by our progress!

One thing that really shows , IMHO, is the different organization systems for shipchains/trade that differ from player to player. Thinking about it, I think that making a log of where vans trucks are heading and what purpose those ships have (where they are heading, what cargo they should carry, and so on...) and posting it here (so the next player is not lost at what to do with units when he sees the saved game for the 1st time) is a good idea. I lost quite a bit of time figuring out what purpose our boats had when I played my second set of 10 turns, and I think that our gameplay would improve if we had those logs. (vans would be delivered more efficiently, and would be an example of how our game would improve)

I would say those were my two cents, but Canada could very well eliminate the penny in the midterm, so I am going to say ''Happy New Year!'' instead


EDIT: Posted this, but should have reloaded the page before. I saw the game, but I can say that considering how advanced we are techwise, we are still having a lot of puddling size 8 cities that will not grow via WLTPD even if they have a food surplus because of lack of aqueducts. Those cities will not be able to help much with the building of a spaceship/howies/stealth fighters/whatever. I think that this should be moved up the priority list, especially because Hoover will not be that useful with small cities: We should wait for Miniaturization and even then, it will be benefiting only large cities. Growing our cities in time for Hoover and friends and allow them to grow to size 12+ minimum should be a priority IMO. (and irrigation, because it will be needed. We will also need gold, which means that we will need to delay Flight as much as possible because of the 33% payout penalty)

The Americans are nearly completed with SoL. I would RB that wonder first and foremost, because if the Americans switch to Fundy it will greatly hurt our economy. Remember that a lot of our ongoing trade routes are with the Americans.

Tblisbi is a size 8 city suppling hides... Is RBing lots of hides trucks for further use worth it? We could make a RR to Dublin (could take some time however...) and use the shipchain to ship to the Russians and the Carths (consider giving them Republic/Democracy. It would also help because they will be able to support less military units, making conquest easier)

 

[Magic_gorter]

Things go very fast right now. Just a few players can play before launch (if we go for space victory). It's clear that the victory will be ours if we don't do very strange things.

I think it's possible to get two techs right now every turn but it will mean a lot of cities no longer celebrate.

But that's something the next player may decide.

 

[Blasph23]

Two techs every turn now means a lot of cities will simply riot. Also to Jokemaster: I already posted similar thoughts on our further development, regarding aqueducts and terrain improvements as well as miniaturization and the like. Also I forgot to mention this in my log, but Americans have nearly completed SoL.
The next player might consider that and pull some vans back to the country and put in some shields into our own SoL while the rest can be bought. I never had this as my priority to build SoL just to prevent them from going into fundy.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Something I noticed in the log is that the non-demanded deliveries were the one coming from superhighway cities, while the demanded deliveries came from cities without highways. When starting to build superhighways, that is the exact opposite of what you want to do. You want to look for freight that you plan to deliver in the near future, and look particularly for those that you expect will give the biggest bonus; then you rush superhighways in the home cities of those freights, because 50% of a big bonus is more than 50% of a small one. It's not that big a deal, but, in my opinion, the method I described is a better strategy.

Regarding deliveries in general, if you need extra funds for rushbuilding, make more deliveries. I don't think we'll be running into a circumstance where we won't have enough freight to discover a tech.

Tblisbi is a size 8 city suppling hides... Is RBing lots of hides trucks for further use worth it? We could make a RR to Dublin (could take some time however...) and use the shipchain to ship to the Russians and the Carths (consider giving them Republic/Democracy. It would also help because they will be able to support less military units, making conquest easier)

I think there are more important things to do with Tblisi at the moment. It is a decent distance from the greater part of our cities, and, with the river, will have a very nice amount of trade. I think, if we improve it some more, it would make a very nice "dumping city" for any freight we don't have any destination for. If we want to go that way, we should probably bring a few more engineers that way to speed the work.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Mass Production cancels hides demand.

EDIT:

I don't think the Americans will switch to Fundy just because they have SoL. I think they have to "be under threat" (as the AI determines) or be rather militaristic. On the other hand, we do have 1600g if we want to buy the thing, and be completely sure.

 

[Blasph23]

My plan was to build highways for larger, more populous cities, that have more trade so that in the future they would be able to sooner send the vans with demanded comodities than other cities still building highways. I guess I should have done it the other way since the shields provided weren't different than in smaller cities and I had to rushbuy the highways anyway. Also since highways provide bonus to trade on railed tiles, I noticed an increase in taxes from around 670 to 750 which is to some extent important, and was only achievable from the larger cities.

 

[mackerel]

Looking at the caravan options using tradepayoffcalculator.xls I found somewhere on these forums:
Oil from Burgos
to Seville (d): 588g
to Ciudad Rodrigo (d): 644
to Washington (nd): 462 (1617 if demanded)
to Moscow (nd): 432

Clearly we're at a point where demanded caravans to our own large superhighway cities are worth delivering, if foreign demand does not exist. If we were to research flight, that caravan to Rodrigo would only be worth 430, but once we build airports in both cities it would go back to 644.

It costs 260g now to rushbuy a freight with no preexisting shields. Superhighways (and factories) cost 480. Each domestic demanded oil doubles the investment, the profit from two of them pays for a superhighway. Four cities delivering domestic demanded oil pays for four new freight next turn, and a free superhighway somewhere. 19 of our cities produce oil. I like it!

The American shipchain can still be shortened to Calatrava->Santander->Railroad to Oviedo/Salzburg->America.

 

[haleewud]

Looks like I am up next. I am going to need a little time to review.

 

[Magic_gorter]

It costs 260g now to rushbuy a freight with no preexisting shields.

If you RB from scratch you can get a freight for 225g.
First rushbuy a temple or barracks->change to diplomat->RB diplomat->change to engineer->RB engineer->change to freight->RB freight.

 

[haleewud]

If you RB from scratch you can get a freight for 225g.
First rushbuy a temple or barracks->change to diplomat->RB diplomat->change to engineer->RB engineer->change to freight->RB freight.

Actually it is 235. The RB of the Barracks (or Temple) is 160. Each of the 10 shields RBs is 25. So 160+25+25+25 is 235.

Looking at the caravan options using tradepayoffcalculator.xls I found somewhere on these forums:

Can anybody tell me where I can download the calculator? I would like to use it, but I couldn't find it last night when I was searching the forums.



BTW. One thing I noticed in the game so far is that we have 3 sets of cities where there are 2 cities with the same name (Issus, Naples and Cunaxa if memory serves). I will rename the duplicate cities before I start to play.

 

[timtofly]

Actually it is 235. The RB of the Barracks (or Temple) is 160. Each of the 10 shields RBs is 25. So 160+25+25+25 is 235.



Can anybody tell me where I can download the calculator? I would like to use it, but I couldn't find it last night when I was searching the forums.



BTW. One thing I noticed in the game so far is that we have 3 sets of cities where there are 2 cities with the same name (Issus, Naples and Cunaxa if memory serves). I will rename the duplicate cities before I start to play.

Depending on how many shields you are producing, you do not need to RB the final product do you? You just have to RB a unit that is close to the shield count of the one you need.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

True, but I can only think of 2 cities that we have that have a 10 shield surplus.

 

[Jokemaster]

True, but I can only think of 2 cities that we have that have a 10 shield surplus.

Thus the need, in the following order, to grow our cities and build factories/Hoover/offshore platforms ASAP.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Actually it is 235. The RB of the Barracks (or Temple) is 160. Each of the 10 shields RBs is 25. So 160+25+25+25 is 235.

Thanks for the correction haleewud. I've made a typo.

Can anybody tell me where I can download the calculator? I would like to use it, but I couldn't find it last night when I was searching the forums.

I've found it on apolyton but when downloading it is 0 kb.
Can anybody upload it in this thread?

 

[mackerel]

Here's the trade spreadsheet, I had to zip it to upload here.
View attachment tradepayoffcalculator.zip

 

[haleewud]

Turn 0 (1320AD): Rushbuying - 2 Transports, 6 Freight, 5 Engineers, 1 Aqueduct. Gold before RB: 1996, after: 394.

Turn 1 (1340AD):
Washington builds Statue of Liberty, Carths move troops near several cities.
Communism discovered (cathedrals become less efficient WLTPD ends in 3 cities), start Mass Production.
Contact Carths, demand they withdraw, they do.
Hut - 2 Barb Knights
Deliveries:
Malaga (SH) Cloth (UD) to Washington for 513g (resets supply of Wine and Gold in Malaga)
Pamplona (SH) Gems to Chicago for 1260g
Cremona (no SH) Silk to Paris for 510g (resets Paris' demand for Dye)
Avila (no SH) Oil (UD) to Lyons for 204g (resets Lyons' demand for Beads and Silver)
Rushbuilds: 2 Temples, 2 Aqueducts, 1 Sewers, 2 SH, 3 Harbor, 1 Engineer, 4 Freight. Gold before RB: 3478, after: 590.

Turn 2 (1360AD):
Americans develop Engineering, Russians start and then abandon Eiffel Tower
Mass Production discovered, start Tactics.
Bribe Carth Legion (for NON unit) for 210g
Deliveries:
Malaga (SH) Wine to San Francisco for 1260g
Oviedo (SH) Beads to Sverdlovsk for 660g
Cremona (no SH) Hides to Sverdlovsk for 220g
Salamanca (SH) Silver to Moscow for 1192g (resets Moscow's demand for Silk)
Rushbuilds: 14 Aqueducts, 2 Sewers, 1 Supermarket, 1 SH, 2 Harbor, 4 Engineer, 7 Freight, 1 Diplomat. Gold before RB: 4342, after: 418.

Turn 3 (1380AD):
Sioux Government overthrown, Russians discover Metallurgy, Japanese discover Steam Engine, French discover Ecomnomics
Tactics discovered, start Machine Tools
Hut - 3 Barb Knights
Deliveries:
Ciudad Rodrigo (SH) Cloth to Valencia (SH) for 414g (Valencia supply of Copper reset)
Leon (SH) Oil to Ciudad Rodrigo (SH) for 1083g (Leon Demands oil, Ciudad supplies oil)
Desert Outpost (no SH) Oil to Malaga (SH) for 682g (Malaga supply of Wine reset)
Bilbao (SH) Wool to Osaka for 624g
Rushbuilds: 4 Temples, 6 Aqueducts, 2 Sewers, 2 SH, 1 Harbor, 2 Engineer, 10 Freight. Gold before RB: 3908, after: 763.
I move a few troops near Caralis to try to 'reclaim' some squares.

Turn 4 (1400AD):
Carths warn me to leave Caralis and then sneak attack. The NON legion is killed but an Engineer survives 2 or 3 warrior attacks.
Sioux change to Monarchy, Russians start Eiffel Tower
Machine Tools discovered, start Espionage (wanted Miniaturization, but it wasn't available).
Bribe Carth Phalanx for 117g, Bribe Caralis for 768g (169g). With surrounding squares, 2 legions, 3 archers, 1 warrior and 3 settlers are gained. 2 settlers are reassigned to Naples and Vigo, 2 Archers are disbanded for shields. Cease-Fire and Peace treaty with Carths.
Deliveries:
Valladolid (SH) Silk to Washington for 1070g (Washington still demands Silk)
Ciudad Rodrigo (SH) Oil to Leon (SH) for 1083g
Cordoba (SH) Oil to Santander (SH) for 635g
Leon (SH) Salt (UD) to San Francisco for 618g
Rushbuilds: 2 Temples, 4 Aqueducts, 3 Sewers, 1 Supermarket, 1 SH, 4 Harbor, 2 Engineer, 6 Freight, 6 Diplomat. Gold before RB: 3832, after: 265.
I delivered more than realy needed to fill the science box, but I needed the extra gold to complete my rushbuilds. Changed Einstein in Oviedo to tax man. Hired Einstein in Toronto (much earlier in the processing order) to ensure that espionage would be completed. The 'diplomats' that were rushed were build as Spies.

Turn 5 (1420AD):
Americans develop Metallurgy
Bede completes his epic history. The happiest civs are Spanish, Americans, Russians, French, Japanese, Carthaginians and Sioux
Japanese start Eiffel Tower. French contact, offer 150g to Ally against Japanese, declined.
Espionage discovered, start Miniaturization (tech cost is now 2795)
Hut for 100g
Bribe Mongol Cannon for 96g
Deliveries:
Malaga (SH) Wine to San Francisco for 1312g (SF still demands wine)
New Grenada (no SH) Silk to Orleans for 678g
Barcelona (SH) Gold to San Francisco for 1322g (SF still demands gold)

There are 75 Trucks still available. Most have been put to sleep. They can be awakened if the next player needs a bit more gold for rushbuilds. 4590g is available fro rushbuilds

Final thoughts:

I decided to concentrate on growth. I doubled the number of Aqueducts (from 27 to 54) and almost doubled the number of Sewer Systems (11 to 19). Population was 35.89 million in 1320AD. It is now 54.6 million.

The ship chains that I was using are:
Main Continent (20) to Carths's Continent (9): Calatrava to Issus
Carths Continent (9) to Russians (11) south: Corfu thru RussiansAhead to Russian shore
Carths Continent (9) to Russians (11) north: Sydney to Venice
Main Continent (20) toward Americans: Burgos to Santander and then Salzburg to American shore
Main Continent (20) towards French (16) and Japanese (11): Seville to Toronto then on to Tours or Japanese shore. There are 2 transports in the ocean between Seville and Toronto. They are on either side of the 'date line' to remind me where it is.

 

[Jokemaster]

Got the game: I'll be playing next, according to the playing order. Needless to say it will be a nice change of pace from GOTM 118.

I'm guessing (SH) next to cities delivering means superhighways?

We need to start thinking about the endgame. Do we want to win by conquest or spaceship? Either way, once we get Mobile Warfare, Robotics and Stealth (but especially Stealth) we should be in a position to conquer nearly the whole world in a matter of a few turns. The Carths would be easy, and not worth to mention the Sioux. Same for the French and the Japanese. The Americans would probably be gone in a few turns. However, for an attack on the Russians to work out in a few turns, we might have to bribe St. Petersburg beforehand to provide a base for our stealth fighters and paratroopers.

Adam Smith's would save us, right now, 82 gold per turn. (and that number is likely to skyrocket as temples, libraries and marketplaces are built) I think that's enough to justify 8 food vans even if it is very late in the game.

With that being said, besides Adam Smith's, a LOT of very good wonders are going unbuilt. (read: hoover, un, WS, and maybe also Shakes if we want a Super Military City... however I would not recommend it given the fact that stealth fighters should do the job and they do not cause unhappiness... but if Shakes is not worth it then I'm not sure if WS is worth it too) With Miniaturization just around the corner, I don't think we have any excuses left to leave big cities with a weak shield production.

As for SETI... Our science still comes from vans (altough we could get 2 adv per turn... but not wiling to pull the LUX slider to 20%) When Computers is discovered, shall we build SETI ASAP or shall we hold off a bit until our country can generate almost techs per turn without hampering growth? (SETI would do the rest)

Oh, and I forgot a thing: I will not only attach my completed savegame, but could also possibly attach a log of where vans are heading, what they should be carrying, what purpose they have, their status (planned/rush bought/on a shipchain/waiting for city improvements to be rbd to increase payout/all clear) and what stuff should be rush bought in the concerned city/cities before delivering. In other words,superhighways are very likely to be made mandatory for caravan deliveries in thevery near future, if not now. We have 21 of them now and that number is bound to increase.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Caracas, Grenada and Turin are both running a food deficit (though they both have at least 3 turns stockpile). There may be others.

We need to start thinking about the endgame. Do we want to win by conquest or spaceship? Either way, once we get Mobile Warfare, Robotics and Stealth (but especially Stealth) we should be in a position to conquer nearly the whole world in a matter of a few turns. The Carths would be easy, and not worth to mention the Sioux. Same for the French and the Japanese. The Americans would probably be gone in a few turns. However, for an attack on the Russians to work out in a few turns, we might have to bribe St. Petersburg beforehand to provide a base for our stealth fighters and paratroopers.

Even with current technology, if we were to get the troops into position, we could eliminate everyone but the Russians in one turn, provided the Senate didn't interfere.

In fact, I would list our enemies in the following order of importance:
The Senate
Logistics
The Russians
Everyone Else

If we want to go for conquest, I don't think there is much reason to put it off; I'd get Mobile Warfare, build up a few troops and start goading our the other civs. Armor should be sufficient to roll over everyone; very few cities have walls. I wouldn't even worry about making them all Veteran, though a fair number of them should be. I'd build the UN so we can use the Emissary Ploy to stay at war. No one has Communism, so we won't even have to worry about partisans.

Adam Smith's would save us, right now, 82 gold per turn. I think that's enough to justify 8 food vans even if it is very late in the game.

At this point in the game, I usually buy wonders outright (or, maybe, put one or two caravans in), rather than tie up a lot of city production. We're not exactly short of cash, given the huge number of freight floating around. Also, Adam Smith's makes it impossible to find out how many 1 gold improvements you have built when you go to the Trade Advisor.

With that being said, besides Adam Smith's, a LOT of very good wonders are going unbuilt. (read: hoover, un, WS, and maybe also Shakes if we want a Super Military City... however I would not recommend it given the fact that stealth fighters should do the job and they do not cause unhappiness... but is Shakes is not worth it then I'm not sure if WS is worth it too, save for the 20 points) With Miniaturization just around the corner, I don't think we have any excuses left to leave big cities with a weak shield production.

If we want a Super Military City, we should bring in the engineers immediately to start improving Valencia (no other city stands out, even though we'll have to irrigate over hills to get all the plains in the area). I think we should get a few cities as candidates for factories before we spend 2400 gold on Hoover, however.

As for SETI... Our science still comes from vans (altough we could get 2 adv per turn... but not wiling to pull the LUX slider to 20%) When Computers is discovered, shall we build SETI ASAP or shall we hold off a bit until our country can generate almost techs per turn without hampering growth? (SETI would do the rest)

The Sioux might be due for another tech-bombing (withhold Democracy so we can bribe the city if/when we need to); which would reduce the science rate somewhat. I think we could also reduce the luxury rate to 50% or 40% without too much trouble (at 30%, we get a tech per turn, and no disorder, but little WLTPD). We might have to buy a few marketplaces to continue celebrating.

If we decide to launch a spaceship, we might as well tech for it as fast as possible, and so I'd build SETI immediately in those circumstances.

 

[Jokemaster]

I think we should get a few cities as candidates for factories before we spend 2400 gold on Hoover, however.

True, and that's exactly why growing our cities is still my number 1 priority. Some cities would be worth the effort when you add Offshore platforms to the factory+hoover combo, but remember the need for Mass Transit. We are simply not ready yet: However, with that being said, I plan to build those wonders using food vans (takes some time, but comes cheaper) in cities that only have junk commodities left (or have none) that are on our home continent. Should add ''have SH'' in the list. Those cities can't really build something ''useful'' right now (except maybe libraries... altough rb'd marketplaces would pay for themselves on gold in only 8 turns for some cities) Also, I don't really understand how knowing how much 1gold improvements you built helps.

Even with current technology, if we were to get the troops into position, we could eliminate everyone but the Russians in one turn, provided the Senate didn't interfere.

Considering the logistics challenge, I still think that waiting until Stealth/Combined Arms is better because it is WAY easier to conquer using aerial warfare than ground warfare, due to engineers not being as much important when your attack units travel 14 squares per turn. I do know that those railroads will need to be built eventually (say, a few turns from a spaceship landing) That would also reduce the need for logistics because, for example, you don't need many boats to transport your soldiers when they have wiiiiiiings! Given the geography of this map, enemy cities and their advancement level, I think that the Stealth Fighter+Para+Spy combo would be powerful (especially in Russia) Along with the odd partisan to keep EB going, but I don't think that will be used on a large scale (if ever) No civ has Conscription besides us.

And I also managed to fix the food problem in Caracas and Turin. It was probably a manner of setting workers to max trade positions for a delivery and forgetting to reset afterwards.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Also, I don't really understand how knowing how much 1gold improvements you built helps.

It's not a big deal. It just gives a quick and easy way to see how many improvements you have (which can facilitate decisions, particularly ones for attempting multiple techs per turn). It is a small negative point on a wonder that I don't regard as particularly valuable anyway.

Considering the logistics challenge, I still think that waiting until Stealth/Combined Arms is better because it is WAY easier to conquer using aerial warfare than ground warfare, due to engineers not being as much important when your attack units travel 14 squares per turn. I do know that those railroads will need to be built eventually (say, a few turns from a spaceship landing) That would also reduce the need for logistics because, for example, you don't need many boats to transport your soldiers when they have wiiiiiiings! Given the geography of this map, enemy cities and their advancement level, I think that the Stealth Fighter+Para+Spy combo would be powerful (especially in Russia) Along with the odd partisan to keep EB going, but I don't think that will be used on a large scale (if ever) No civ has Conscription besides us.

Once in place, stealth fighters are easier to use, but they take longer to put into place. Depending on where we build them, Stealth Fighters would take 3-5 turns to get into position (except for a few cities in the neighborhood). We can move land units throughout most of our empire in 1 turn (or at least 8 of them). Also, if we decide to, we can win before Stealth Fighters are available at all.

An extra note: We should probably disband all the outdated military, either immediately or as soon as we get Mobile Warfare.

 

[haleewud]

Caracas, Grenada and Turin are both running a food deficit (though they both have at least 3 turns stockpile). There may be others.

And I also managed to fix the food problem in Caracas and Turin. It was probably a manner of setting workers to max trade positions for a delivery and forgetting to reset afterwards.

Grenada and Turin were running a deficit because I forgot to reset after making deliveries from neighboring cities (Barcelona and Malaga). I borrowed a square from each to maximize trade. I am not sure why Caracas had a deficit, there was no real reason. I may have been thinking about delivering its Silver Truck to Moscow and just forgot to reset.