[BNW] Deity Ring Trial Game - Poland

[beetle]

Deity versus Series – Casimir III

I am posting a series of eight games, all using the same eight civs and the same map script, and taking notes on which civs the computer plays the best. This is the first a trial game in the series, and with this map, you play Casimir III of Poland.

This game only uses All games in this series use a Ring map with city states script by @krc, which is like the default Ring script, but with the usual 16 CS instead of just four or five.

Please be encouraged to share your experience playing this map, but if you post in the first screen of this thread, please use the SPOILER tag if you attach a picture, make a comment about your neighbors, nearby natural wonders, locations of ancient ruins, terrain features, luxes, resources, etc.

Before you download and start playing the map, please take a moment to speculate on your initial thoughts and plans for the game. Will you settle in place? Will you try to found a religion? What are your plans for getting the most from the UA/UU/UB? What Victory Condition will you be aiming for?

After you play the map, please post about which civs where eliminated by other civs. Did you feel any pressure from any of the AIs from their winning by SV, CV, or Diplo?

The suggested VC is Domination, but play as you like, and all VC are enabled.

Spoiler for UA, UU, and UB :

Solidarity: Receive a free Social Policy when you advance to next era. This is easily the strongest UA available in the game.

You can train the Winged Hussar which is stronger (28 vs. 25), faster (5 vs. 4), and better promoted than the Lancer which it replaces. Winged Hussars start with Charge I and the Heavy Charge unique promotion. The promotions are retained when the unit is upgraded.

You can build Ducal Stables. In addition to the regular abilities of the Stable, the Ducal Stable increases gold Gold on Pasture tiles and gives +15 XP for Mounted Units. If you build (or buy) WH in cities with both a Ducal Stable and Military Academy, they can start with March or Blitz!

Spoiler for more about the map type and settings :

Standard size, standard speed, standard number of civs and CS, etc. Map type is a pangea that is a rectangular ring of eight sub-continents, each connected by a narrow (2 plot wide) isthmus, with ocean and some small islands in the center. Each major civ has two immediate neighbors. The “natural” setting chosen gives the most randomized and irregular coastline. There is a mix of shallow and deep water on the outside of the pangea, and no connection between the inner and outer seas. Resources are “balanced” (the default and only option) so you will have Horses and Iron near your starting location. The dominate terrain feature picked is Forest (grasslands, plains, and tundra were the other choices).

Spoiler for starting screen shot :

Spoiler for exactly which civs are in the game :

Civs have been chosen because the computer plays them well. Your opponents are Alexander, Augustus, Bismarck, Dido, Montezuma, Sejong, and Shaka.

Please note that there are two save files attached to this post. Your two neighbors in the file with “lite” in its name have each had a settler and worker deleted. As compared to the player, they still start off with an extra warrior, scout, and worker.

This map requires having the DLC map packs.

EDIT(s): The file for lite version has been corrected and replaced. Civs for the next game in the series will be different than with this map, and I will not be using a Ring script.

 

[Grendeldef]

I wish I had more time to tackle these but the map setup is unfamiliar to me and the endless forests is also an unknown entity. Hard to say much more without moving the warrior but I'm inclined to roll few maps with the script to see how it works in general. Partly to see what I'm dealing with and on the other to equalize the 8 tries in that respect.

 

[beetle]

…but I'm inclined to roll few maps with the script to see how it works in general.

I will be curious to learn what you pick up on. Maybe I am not thinking about it enough, but it is basically a Donut map, but with more variability to the coast. I just added a note to OP about the forced “choice” for resource balance. That means there are horses and iron near the starting position.

 

[raider980]

I'm sticking with the lite version. I'll move the warrior to the gems but I don't see any reason to move; I'll settle in place. Given the map description, I think I'm going to try to find the isthmus connections and block them so the AI can't come to my land. I didn't look at the AI civs because I want to be surprised. But with all that forest I imagine Hiawatha is included. Speaking of forest, don't think I'll be trying domination with that being the main terrain type - but it'll probably help with the other victory types.

 

[Grendeldef]

I will be curious to learn what you pick up on.

As I'm almost totally unaware of the map type I'd like to know roughly how large the landmasses are, how they're are connected, density and size of the islands, CS placements amongst other things. In the beginning it (roughly) determines the number of scouts if any I'll build, the point where naval techs will be useful/needed, how aggressive the worker stealing should be etc. I just would like to know, even remotely, what to expect - the only time I can think of playing donut-type map were twice in the past series and one of those might've been Immortal and the Deity map was way too easy anyway.

 

[beetle]

Sorry about that @raider980, the lite version in OP was bolluxed and has been replace. I was not careful enough with IGE and had deleted both settlers from one of the neighbors.

@Grendeldef, you might still want to play this map as I will not be continuing the series with this particular set of civs. I should have discussed and/or play-tested more. I think Ring is noticeably harder than Pangea, as the opportunities for bribing your neighbors into war elsewhere considerably more limited. Deity Donut might have the same problem, but maybe that map script is a little more open? I do not think Donut has enough variety to keep my interest for eight games in row, hence why I wanted to try Ring. Also, I think the forest as basic terrain was a mistake, and that I should have picked grasslands or plains instead.

 

[Grendeldef]

I haven't started yet but I was rolling half a dozen maps with the script and I can safely say that I still don't like it - at all, which wasn't any sort of surprise to me, though.

The main problem for me still is the lack of land and the vast surplus of choke points. I like larger land masses in general and hate a single city effectively splitting a continent (there are exception) and the snaky continents makes starting position too important and puts civs on very uneven ground which is fine for a single game but a handicap for testing purposes.

In case you're planning to reboot the series which is fine; well I'd even suggest it at this point I'd recommend using Continents/TI or even Pangaea map possibly fiddling with the size, sea level & # of civs/CSs.

I used to play a lot on Large maps with lhigh sea lvl, only 8 or 9 civs and few added CSs and what that does in general is give more room to settle, keeps civs slightly further apart from each other while CSs blocking more or less effectively uncontrollable ICSing by any AI and bringing them to more central locations instead of hiding in the corners - slightly longer games, slower tech pace but from my pov more interesting game play. For the testing purposes something similar would (significantly) reduce the impact of starting position on the map.

 

[raider980]

I was not careful enough with IGE and had deleted both settlers from one of the neighbors.

Woohoo, free worker steal! Since you're changing things I'll just keep playing this one as I need all the help I can get.

 

[beetle]

@raider980, I cannot recommend that at all. With one civ out of the game, nothing feels right. And he will probably loose his worker to barbs before you can catch it

I got my clocked cleaned a third time trying to survive the non-lite file, it is definitely too much for me. The corrected lite game is pretty good, still plenty challenging.

EDIT: Lost lite game by CV on T297. I have reload to ~T160 to see if I can’t just get an SV before then. I will share some notes and a screen shot, win or lose, after this next attempt.

I have one new complaint about the settings I picked, and this might seem like trivia, but it’s enough to spoil the game for me! No desert tiles. Half a dozen CS waiting on me to build Petra...

 

[beetle]

In case you're planning to reboot the series which is fine; well I'd even suggest it at this point...

Yes, definitely rebooting!

I'd recommend using Continents/TI or even Pangaea map possibly fiddling with the size, sea level & # of civs/CSs.

I am hoping that this series might help sort out 2nd tier AI civs from 3rd tier, and that to my mind means pretty much keeping the available land area and number of civs and CS to the default. The obvious argument is that if the series is suppose to shed some light on AI behavior (and that generalizes to using the usual Pangaea and Continents maps that most everyone favors), that I should be running the series on Pangaea or Continents!

That said, how do you (and others) feel about the Donut script? It would certainly be more open than Ring/Ring2, but I do not think that the starting location would be as much a variable (and overwhelming) factor as happens with Pangaea.

I think what I would really want for this series is a Pangaea where all the major civs start on the coast. Anyone have ideas for making that happen? IMHO it is too much of an issue if a civ has six neighbors or just one. Donut would mean everyone pretty much has two neighbors, but since the Donut land mass is quite wide, there is plenty more room for settling (and other mischief) as compared to Ring.

 

[Blatc]

beetle, you'll have 7 different games (per player taking part) to get a sense of how the AI plays different civs. Just use a common map type that other players will play (increasing your sample size for this experiment) and don't read too much into a single game. You can make notes after, ex. "Korea did well when (describe conditions), but struggled more than the other 7 civs in (these situations)."

 

[penguin74]

Well I was gonna give this a try but if you're rebooting I'll wait tll after you get the new series ready. Just please don't put Shaka as the closest neighbor, I'm still scarred from the Attila game.

My only concern with all the capitals on a coast would be that Dom might be too easy. I stink at domination but always seem to find taking a city with my navy to be pretty easy

 

[Grendeldef]

I am hoping that this series might help sort out 2nd tier AI civs from 3rd tier, and that to my mind means pretty much keeping the available land area and number of civs and CS to the default. The obvious argument is that if the series is suppose to shed some light on AI behavior (and that generalizes to using the usual Pangaea and Continents maps that most everyone favors), that I should be running the series on Pangaea or Continents!

That's one way of looking at it, sure.but from my pov the general failures of map scripts make this secondary issue - I'm more keen on keeping the game interesting and what happens after that will determine how good or bad they're. I think approach this from (very) different perspective - I'm these days pure warmonger so the general rule is the closer the AI is to me the worse they're off if left to their own devices.
The reason I suggested TI/Continents (with 4-4 AI distribution in every game) is that it gives half the AIs 100+ turns free time to sort things out while the rest will be affected by the player. This should give some perspective to what civs do well own their own and which don't. Also, this setup is fairly balanced for chances to get a coastal capital, reach the other continent, waste hammers on useless Navy and so on.

Even slightly more land to settle than on std 8/16 gives everyone a better opportunity to make a real choice between expansion and turtling - the std setting favours turtling. Also it gives the AI even a remote chance of winning.

That said, how do you (and others) feel about the Donut script? It would certainly be more open than Ring/Ring2, but I do not think that the starting location would be as much a variable (and overwhelming) factor as happens with Pangaea.

My feelings about the map scripts in general are well known and the most positive view I can give is unfortunate - most of them belong to category of BS while some are only bad so my views can be pretty much ignored when deciding the map - I will always vote TI/Continents/something similar.
I can't stand maps that don't allow circumnavigation, I despise the snaky one or two tile wide land masses, I hate maps where Navy is useless and I don't like how CSs are on clusters. I also have several other minor objections.

I think what I would really want for this series is a Pangaea where all the major civs start on the coast. Anyone have ideas for making that happen? IMHO it is too much of an issue if a civ has six neighbors or just one. Donut would mean everyone pretty much has two neighbors, but since the Donut land mass is quite wide, there is plenty more room for settling (and other mischief) as compared to Ring.

I don't like Pangaea but it's a better option than Donut etc but this is where Continents would be better especially with low sea lvl or something like that - everyone roughly has a corner of their own and expansion dictates who'll be the actual neighbours. It's what the civs actually do not where they start. Obviously the situation is far from that b&w but you'll get the point I'm trying to make.

I quite happily admit that the result may not totally reflect the situation on std 8/16 Pangaea what most people seem to be favouring but as I said I don't really care about that because that premise is biased not to my nor the naval civs' liking

If the Chosen One will be Ring/Donut/... I'll prolly crawl through the games at some point as the setup is interesting but I'd be much happier camper if the map would be something like Continents.

 

[beetle]

Well I was gonna give this a try but if you're rebooting I'll wait tll after you get the new series ready. Just please don't put Shaka as the closest neighbor, I'm still scarred from the Attila game.

I have decided against Shaka for the series. His behavior is well known.

My only concern with all the capitals on a coast would be that Dom might be too easy. I stink at domination but always seem to find taking a city with my navy to be pretty easy

LOL, I had not thought about sailing around the perimeter! Really I want is for the major civs to be oriented towards the perimeter of the Pangea (caps might still be inland).

beetle, you'll have 7 different games (per player taking part) to get a sense of how the AI plays different civs.

Eight games per player, no? But that is not much of much a sample size.

Just use a common map type that other players will play (increasing your sample size for this experiment) and don't read too much into a single game. You can make notes after, ex. "Korea did well when (describe conditions), but struggled more than the other 7 civs in (these situations)."

Yes, that is all I am looking for.

…I will always vote TI/Continents/something similar.

You make a compelling argument. At present, I am leaning towards the Continents Plus script then. I like TI better in general, but for this experiment, I am hoping for a little more consistency. The player will not start on the same continent as Sejong, and I will use IGE to clear out some of the ice blocking circumnavigation.

 

[Blatc]

Eight games per player, no? But that is not much of much a sample size.

7 games in which to observe AI behaviour for a given civ.

 

[Grendeldef]

You make a compelling argument. At present, I am leaning towards the Continents Plus script then. I like TI better in general, but for this experiment, I am hoping for a little more consistency. The player will not start on the same continent as Sejong, and I will use IGE to clear out some of the ice blocking circumnavigation.

Continents in some form is my suggestion as well. TI is better as a script but too unpredictable for this I agree.

Where each one starts is obviously up to you and if Sejong is still supposed to be the sci threat then his place is on the AI continent otherwise the distribution of civs between player & AI continent hopefully evens out on its own but I'd make sure that every/(most) game(s) start with 4 civs per continent rather than 5-3 or any other variation.
Generally though I don't it'll be necessary to much cook the maps in anyway as things will even out enough even if the series for proper statistical analysis is too short. Removing the blocking ice is always extremely welcomed from my part.

 

[beetle]

7 games in which to observe AI behaviour for a given civ.

I will pick the eight civs and then rotate the player through those eight, hopefully one game per weekend. Alexander and Sejong will be last, but I will probably go through the other six per @consentient’s tier ranking.

EDIT: You are correct that each player would only be providing seven times to comment on each of the eight civs under observation. I am also offering to track mean civ scores throughout the series. There might be some surprising trends there as well.

...hopefully evens out on its own but I'd make sure that every/(most) game(s) start with 4 civs per continent rather than 5-3 or any other variation.

I think a 4-4 split is actually pretty rare, so I might not have the patience for that, but cross your fingers! I will be using the rotate start position mode to give players a strong start. There will always at least three AIs on the player’s starting continent, and the player will not be on the continent with Sejong.

 

[Grendeldef]

I think a 4-4 split is actually pretty rare, so I might not have the patience for that, but cross your fingers!

So you'll use larger maps & 9 civs instead to get at least most often 5-4 then


I so wish there were few more options to affect these settings in the UI instead of endless rerolling & hoping we've been forced to.

 

[beetle]

I so wish there were few more options to affect these settings in the UI instead of endless rerolling & hoping we've been forced to.

That would have been nice! The HB scripts come with more options (e.g., “Strategic Balance”), but nothing for civ placement per se.

How do folks feel about large maps? I do not play those much, but I think those default to 10 civs and 20 CS. So that would be two more AIs in the series. Presumably everything else is about the same, except that DOM VC would be harder. I feel like large maps should come with an extra trade route, but other than that, the balance has felt okay to me.

 

[Grendeldef]

For the record I was not suggesting using std 10/20 Large map but rather 9/2x high sea lvl Large map. Continents will by default limit land mass but the larger base map will compensate that while removing an AI gives everyone decent space to start with, usually.
For std map I'd suggest using low sea lvl regardless of # of AIs/CSs in the game. Then here's always the possibility of adding a 9th civ or replacing x CSs by 9th civ.

---add.---

I'd be also fine with using Large 10/20 but I'm afraid that that as an introduction to larger maps for those only familiar with std 8/16 could be rather tiresome especially when using the same civs for 8 times in a row.