Deity tips?

[arand86]

I've been hanging around for a while, and consider myself a pretty adept civ player. Given a good civ and a decent start, I can be competitive and even pull out an occasional win before I get bored on Deity. However, it's basically always either diplo or science. So I have a 3 questions on the topic of playing deity;

1. Start?
I normally go with 1 scout, use the time before pottery to start on a worker, and go with a shrine once I hit pottery, and get monument via legalism. I've considered doing double scout opener, but I feel like it might not be worth it. I've also considered going monument after scout, but that would mean legalism's free production kicking in later, and on a much less necessary building. Any suggestions?

2. Warmongering
The AI has a ridiculous amount of units, and even if you manage to snuff one other civ out, the cities don't actually do that much for you, and you've just crippled your trading for the rest of the game. How can you successfully warmonger on this level?

EDIT 3. Caravans
When is optimal to build your first caravan? The +4 science is really nice, but often times I think it just isn't worth chucking one up until I have a settler, 2 workers a shrine and some defensive units up, which is quite a while into the game.


Thanks guys!

 

[Cromagnus]

1) IMHO, building a worker before a monument is a mistake. If you're relying on Legalism to get the monument, you should build 2 scouts to increase your chances of getting a culture ruin. And in general, 2 scouts is good on Pangaea, since early scouts = meeting civs and CS which in turn leads to CS quests, cash, trading partners...

2) There are entire threads dedicated to this topic. It's hard.

3) It depends. I would definitely say settlers are more important, but I do try to rush-buy one caravan with cash, and build the second after my settlers are out. Unless I'm saving that money for archer upgrades.

In general, the sooner you get a caravan the better, assuming it's protected. Try to arrange your cities so that there is a safe route. I generally expand towards my neighbors in order to get *them* to send caravans to me.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

3) It depends. I would definitely say settlers are more important, but I do try to rush-buy one caravan with cash, and build the second after my settlers are out. Unless I'm saving that money for archer upgrades.

Wouldn't it be better to rush-buy a settler and hardbuild caravan, since it doesn't stop city growth?

 

[adcarrymaokai]

However, it's basically always either diplo or science.

I am not Diety (playing Immortal), but it seems like diplo or science are the easiest, especially science. Cultural victory is largely dependent on science (and so is domination, I assume, as you want to upgrade units promptly), as well, but the victory condition requires more than just science. Here is Deau's Deity cultural victory guide:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501996
And a shorter summary/tips is this post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12971611&postcount=8

 

[kb27787]

The only reliable way to win is science, sadly...
1. scout (unless on archipelago or whatnot), granary or scout or shrine, caravan if near AI otherwise library... settler... NC, settle settler, etc.
2. don't warmonger unless you really have to (it puts you on the verge of victory or the enemy AI is on the verge of victory)

 

[Cromagnus]

Wouldn't it be better to rush-buy a settler and hardbuild caravan, since it doesn't stop city growth?

It depends. Getting the bonus gold and beakers earlier is probably just as valuable as the growth you lose. At that point in the game you're probably at 8 beakers, so a trade route is +50% science. It's kind of a toss up. But 500g is a lot to spend. You probably have 390g a lot sooner as well. And you recoup at least 3g/turn once the TR is in place. Furthermore, a TR will almost always trigger a DOF from an AI, allowing you to trade for cash earlier.

 

[budweiser]

Re: Trade route and DoF

What if they are sending the trade route to you, does that count or must you send it?

 

[Cromagnus]

Either way. If they send you a TR it'll often trigger a DOF request, at least in my experience. I think the logic is that they want to protect that route, and if you DOF them you can't attack it without diplomatic penalty? Whatever the reason, it improves relations no matter who creates the TR.

 

[joshua43214]

On Deity, I tend to build my first caravan right after my first settler and send it right into the AI I just settled towards. I find it reliably gets me a DoF instead of a DoW.

 

[budweiser]

Either way. If they send you a TR it'll often trigger a DOF request, at least in my experience. I think the logic is that they want to protect that route, and if you DOF them you can't attack it without diplomatic penalty? Whatever the reason, it improves relations no matter who creates the TR.

I'm just not convinced that the early foreign route is the best thing for you. I admit that I do it myself when I play diety, but consider the opportunity loss of the early growth in city 2. The money and science is a temporary gain, but put a road between your cities and you are making internal gold and more beakers from more population and hammers etc. Since you are researching tech they already know, you are getting a break on beakers anyway.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

It depends. Getting the bonus gold and beakers earlier is probably just as valuable as the growth you lose. At that point in the game you're probably at 8 beakers, so a trade route is +50% science. It's kind of a toss up. But 500g is a lot to spend. You probably have 390g a lot sooner as well. And you recoup at least 3g/turn once the TR is in place. Furthermore, a TR will almost always trigger a DOF from an AI, allowing you to trade for cash earlier.

That actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

I'm just not convinced that the early foreign route is the best thing for you. I admit that I do it myself when I play diety, but consider the opportunity loss of the early growth in city 2. The money and science is a temporary gain, but put a road between your cities and you are making internal gold and more beakers from more population and hammers etc. Since you are researching tech they already know, you are getting a break on beakers anyway.

But I think the early beakers are the most crucial. Techs cost less, so even 2-3 beakers make a huge impact on the number of turns to research that tech. Later on, the beakers from TR seem to lose their power, so by that time it probably better to start doing domestic TR and grow until you decide to send them internationally again -- especially if you want the tourism bonus.

 

[Cromagnus]

It would take a pop 4 city with a library to equal the science output of one caravan, and a caravan has no maintenance or happiness cost. Now, admittedly, you do need to grow your population, but I tend to be happiness bound in the early game. I'm already expanding as fast as I can without going negative on happiness. And usually I'm warmongering... so any excess population in my cities is limiting my warpath. Obviously if you go tall you'll want to maximize growth. I want to maximize science until I hit my war tech, and carefully grow my cities, focusing on production most times, not growth. So, it depends. I can see how for a Tradition/growth game you'd want to use that caravan for internal growth instead.