azzaman333
meh
Ok, that's what's got me stumped. The GNP = beakers + culture + gp points + eps - gold when researching IW, but when researching Writing there's the magical bonus 13 beakers that arent accounted for anywhere apart from in the GNP.
Die Schlapphüte
- Thread starter mostly-harmless
- Start date
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
NOTE: According to the article mandatory pre reqs give a research bonus also.
Krill
Deity
/me Gets out pen and paper.
EDIT: damn, CFC loses to poly at something...
EDIT: damn, CFC loses to poly at something...
Krill
Deity
OK, using the sim again; giving us writing and monarchy, and researching fuedalism, with 1 optional, and 1 mandatory tech prerequisite, we have 49 GNP.
Researching IW, with 1 optional prerequisites and zero mandatory prerequisites, we havbe 49 GNP.
Researching masonary with 2 optional prerequites and zero madatory prerequisites, we have 57 GNP.
Researching Divine Right, with 2 mandatory techs and zero optional techs, we have 44 GNP.
Therefore mandatory techs have no effect on the tech bonus.
Researching IW, with 1 optional prerequisites and zero mandatory prerequisites, we havbe 49 GNP.
Researching masonary with 2 optional prerequites and zero madatory prerequisites, we have 57 GNP.
Researching Divine Right, with 2 mandatory techs and zero optional techs, we have 44 GNP.
Therefore mandatory techs have no effect on the tech bonus.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
BW is a mandatory pre-req for IW - there are no optional pre-reqs.
Writing and Monarchy are mandatory pre-reqs for Feudalism - there are no optional pre-reqs.
And wheel isn't a direct pre-req for writing - I got those totally wrong. The pre-reqs for writing are priesthood OR AH OR Pottery. the pre-reqs for POTTERY are wheel and either fishing or agri.
My understanding, though, is that for pottery, that would count as 2 mandatory and 1 optional, and for writing, that's 1 mandatory and 2 optional (since you have to have 1 of them)
No, it isn't mandatory, it's just the only optional prerequisite.
Krill
Deity
That's the pouint of the arrows; the arrows denote that the precursor tech is OPTIONAL, whereas the tech in the upper right corner is MANDATORY, which is reflected the GNP numbes I posted previously. (I was wrong about one thing; flight is the other tech that has no optional prerequisites).
Where a tech only has 1 arrow pointing to it, it is still classed as an optional prerequisite for the purposes of the tech bonus, so BW is considered optional for IW, and gives the tech bonus, but is mandatory in the sense that it is the only tech that allows you to research IW, as Theoden states.
So writing is mandatory and monarchy is optional for fued, giving a 1.2 tech bonus, although both are "mandatory" in the sense that you can;t research fued without either.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Got it. You learn more every day.
The article in the war academy is incorrect, then?
This paragraph:
Implies that you get a research bonus of 1.2 just for being able to research a tech (other than the starting techs), because every tech has a pre-req. What you guys are saying is that there are techs that are required for a tech but do NOT give a bonus. Looking at the code, this looks right.
Probably the better language is AND techs vs OR techs, which seems to be what the code uses. The OR techs are shown by the lines, the AND techs are in the upper right. The AND techs do not give a bonus,the OR techs do.
The only place where this is different from the article is for divine right, astronomy and flight, which have no OR prereqs, only AND prereqs.
The earlier misunderstanding in this thread has to do with terminology and both not reading and not writing posts correctly. I had said that I thought writing had a 1.6 bonus if you had all the prereqs (which is right), but then listed the prereqs for POTTERY, 1 of which is an AND requirement. Krill then corrected me, but didn't catch that I was talking about writing.
In any case, the max bonus for writing is 1.6, which is the highest possible bonus you can get.
Does this make sense to everyone or did I get it wrong again?
The article in the war academy is incorrect, then?
This paragraph:
Implies that you get a research bonus of 1.2 just for being able to research a tech (other than the starting techs), because every tech has a pre-req. What you guys are saying is that there are techs that are required for a tech but do NOT give a bonus. Looking at the code, this looks right.
Probably the better language is AND techs vs OR techs, which seems to be what the code uses. The OR techs are shown by the lines, the AND techs are in the upper right. The AND techs do not give a bonus,the OR techs do.
The only place where this is different from the article is for divine right, astronomy and flight, which have no OR prereqs, only AND prereqs.
The earlier misunderstanding in this thread has to do with terminology and both not reading and not writing posts correctly. I had said that I thought writing had a 1.6 bonus if you had all the prereqs (which is right), but then listed the prereqs for POTTERY, 1 of which is an AND requirement. Krill then corrected me, but didn't catch that I was talking about writing.
In any case, the max bonus for writing is 1.6, which is the highest possible bonus you can get.
Does this make sense to everyone or did I get it wrong again?
Krill
Deity
Yeah, technically, it is wrong, it should be rephrased in a manner such as this...(please don't go and get it corrected though...)
That is an acceptable method of discerning between tech types.
So I forgot astro as well...yeah, those are techs that do not have any OR techs as prerequisites.
Partially correct. It is the highest bonus you can get from OR prerequisites, but we also get a bonus because we know a team that also has it, so we get an exta .05 bonus; so for for every 20 beakers we make we get...13 extra beakers, instead of 12. Yay, a free beaker...
Krill
Deity
MS and cavs have met; both just recieved simultaneous score increases (Tinkerbell logged in and accepted a trade).
Cavs score increased 12 earlier in the turn (recieved alphabet), and just increased 6 again.
MS got a 24 point increase.
. .. .. .. ., WTF could that be? Trading polytheism to cavs, then receiving alphabet and priesthood from Cavs? Maybe sailing or archery as well, or meditation...
Cavs score increased 12 earlier in the turn (recieved alphabet), and just increased 6 again.
MS got a 24 point increase.
. .. .. .. ., WTF could that be? Trading polytheism to cavs, then receiving alphabet and priesthood from Cavs? Maybe sailing or archery as well, or meditation...
Krill
Deity
MS had 9 techs, all of the below.
mining, BW, myst, polytheism, agri
plus 4 others, out of
hunting, fishing, pottery, AH, sailing, writing, masonary, meditation, priesthood, fishing, archery
fishing, pottery and Ah I think are almost certain, so that would leave 1 other. If they traded for alphabet, then they had to have writing, and they traded for two of the others, most likely are meditation and ph. If they didn't trade for alpha, then they just recieved 4 ancient era techs.
mining, BW, myst, polytheism, agri
plus 4 others, out of
hunting, fishing, pottery, AH, sailing, writing, masonary, meditation, priesthood, fishing, archery
fishing, pottery and Ah I think are almost certain, so that would leave 1 other. If they traded for alphabet, then they had to have writing, and they traded for two of the others, most likely are meditation and ph. If they didn't trade for alpha, then they just recieved 4 ancient era techs.
Ronnie1
Deity
You guys are confusing the hell out of me with mandatory/optional talk....
Civilopedia states that for Feudalism...it requires Writing and Monarchy.
I find Civilopedia is the clearest reference.
About what the other teams are doing....trading without us...we need to meet some folks ASAP imho.
Civilopedia states that for Feudalism...it requires Writing and Monarchy.
I find Civilopedia is the clearest reference.
About what the other teams are doing....trading without us...we need to meet some folks ASAP imho.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Yes, that confused me, too, Ronnie1. It's really a terminology issue. The problem is that the War Academy article is slightly wrong. What it says is that you get a bonus for meeting the minimum mandatory requirements for being able to research the techs, plus a bonus for any other extra optional requirements, and that's not quite correct.
What you really get is a bonus for any pre-req techs designated as OrPreReqs (in the xml) and none for AndPreReqs. The OrPreReqs show up as the lines in the tech tree, the AndPreReqs show up as icons on the tech itself.
This only really matters for Divine Right, Astronomy and Flight, which have NO OrPreReqs, so never get a pre-req bonus.
The Civilopedia will tell you want you need to research the tech, but it won't tell you what bonuses you might get. It's actually a much simpler method of implementing it than what is in the article.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
MAD SCIENTISTS score up 24 to 142
Pop 6 (32) Land 17 (17) Tech bunch (77) Wonders 1 (16)
CAVALLEROS score up 12 then up 6 to 193
Pop 13 (70) Land 23 (24) Tech 10 ancient, 2 classical (83) Wonders 1 (16)
Most Advanced Civs
Pop 6 (32) Land 17 (17) Tech bunch (77) Wonders 1 (16)
- No change in population and if they built a wonder it should show up on top cities. So the 24 points must be techs, 2 ancient and a classical or 4 ancient, but what could the Scientists have traded for such a haul. Also the score increase came all at one so I guess it was one big deal. That’s an awful friendly first contact!
CAVALLEROS score up 12 then up 6 to 193
Pop 13 (70) Land 23 (24) Tech 10 ancient, 2 classical (83) Wonders 1 (16)
- Again no pop change so 12 points was a classical tech and 6 was an ancient tech.
Most Advanced Civs
- Cavalleoros: 10 ancient, 2 classical
- Kazahkstan: 12 ancient, 1 classical
- SANCTA: 11 ancient, 1 classical
- Mad Scientists: 11 ancient, 1 classical or 13 ancient
- Saturn: 12 ancient
Krill
Deity
Guess: Cavs classical tech was Monarchy for the fued the supposed slingshot.
MS probably have promised a tech in a few turns, and that almost certainly wasn't first conteact...
MS probably have promised a tech in a few turns, and that almost certainly wasn't first conteact...
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
SATURN score up 5 to 143
Pop 8 (43) Land 13 (13) Tech12 ancient (71) Wonders 1 (16)
MAD SCIENTISTS score up 6 to 148
Pop 7 (38) Land 17 (17) Tech bunch (77) Wonders 1 (16)
Most Populous Civs
Pop 8 (43) Land 13 (13) Tech12 ancient (71) Wonders 1 (16)
- They got a new city (8 land tiles).
MAD SCIENTISTS score up 6 to 148
Pop 7 (38) Land 17 (17) Tech bunch (77) Wonders 1 (16)
- City two grew to size 3 matching smallest civ of 43,000 citizens.
Most Populous Civs
- Cavalleoros: sizes 6, 5, 1 and 1 (242,000)
- SANCTA: 6, 4, and 3 (219,000)
- Kazahkstan: sizes 6, 2, 1 and 1 (158,000)
- Saturn: sizes 5, 2 and 1 (97,000)
- Mad Scientists: sizes 3, 3 and 1 (43,000)
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
CAVALLEROS score up 6 to 199
Pop 14 (76) Land 23 (24) Tech 10 ancient, 2 classical (83) Wonders 1 (16)
Pop 14 (76) Land 23 (24) Tech 10 ancient, 2 classical (83) Wonders 1 (16)
- Plus 5,000 pop means city growth from size 1 to 2.
Krill
Deity
Not incredably, but fairly respectably. They have 14 pop to our 13, over the next 10 turns I think we get another 4 pop points, they our going to out expand us, but they are IMP/EXP; expansion is their whole raison d'etre (sorry, I can't be bothered to get the accents right...) but they aren't really outstripping us. They'll beat us to 20 pop, but proably not to 40.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
MAD SCIENTISTS score up 5 to 153
Pop 8 (43) Land 17 (17) Tech bunch (77) Wonders 1 (16)
Pop 8 (43) Land 17 (17) Tech bunch (77) Wonders 1 (16)
- New city (7 land tiles)
