Diplomacy with the Deutsche Küche

[templar_x]

coming to think of it, i do not believe you can win this game.

afair there was no passus in the contract that certain wonders will be forbidden in the space race. and they come first every turn. so they will have ToE (probably) and Internet (for sure). no idea what you could do against that.

t_x

 

[Lanzelot]

The Internet is 1000s, for that price we could as well build 5 Research Labs, and then it just takes a couple hundred more shields to have labs in all important cities. Shields are not important at that stage yet, so with a few 200s prebuilds we can have labs the same turn as they do.

It is clear, that we need to use our time now to set up our science farms a couple centuries earlier than theirs. (And catch up with Bibs, but then: they can't have that many yet, judging from the culture graph?!)

ToE could be a problem. We need to hope that by then our research capability is restored and we reach that tech first, together with a perfectly timed pre-build.
Perhaps it's a 50-50 chance. But they still have a very tough fight with the Eagles ahead of them, and a lot can happen... (And considering that Memento and you already wanted to resign, we are not doing that badly anymore, are we... Second place would already be a huge success, considering where we came from... First place would just be the icing on the cake, and I'm not sad, if we don't make it. Of course we should try our best to achieve it, and there are definitely chances again.)

BTW: do you think that Hospitals are worth it for a space race, or just stay with size 12?
And atm I'm preparing to build Bach's. This would allow our cities to go to size 12 at 0% luxury. Do you think this is worth it?

 

[templar_x]

hospitals: hardly. i could not see (rather: remember) where they would give a serious benefit. settle close enough and you never need them

bachs: don´t know when i built that the last time. can´t imagine it would ever pay, compared to what else could be built for the shields.

Internet: its strength lies in the fact that shields do not count much at this stage. and it adds to EVERY town, even where you would never build a lab.

Resign: dunno for Memento, but i never "wanted to resign". for reasons heavily tied to your behaviour, I RESIGNED. and for the team, i suggested to simply quit playing with the weirdos and psychos of the Anarchie. i still think this would have been best. this will never become just a normal and fun game, whatever the outcome is.

t_x

 

[I. Larkin]

Finally, did we make any research agreement with kuche? Who and when will research Astronomy?

 

[templar_x]

they are discussing it right now. Küche values more money now higher to rush land troops. no idea how they'll survive without luxes...
t_x

 

[I. Larkin]

The research booting us about 100 shields per round costs during the critical period before the end of their GAs. The situation seems not to have changed in unexpected ways. Attempts to reach the lake now something to be the worst option. In R142 we should be able to beat the raw production of the Eagles. Why risk for 1-3 rounds earlier Astro something? Astro has a time delay, gold works immediately.

From justanick do you get out only a specific answer when people say rubbish and then reprimanded....
I think we must withdraw Galleys to south and focus on Libs buildup...

 

[Lanzelot]

That might actually be a good idea. As long as we can't ship the Cavs, there's no need building them. But how likely is it, that we start research soon? Even if the Eagles are no longer a threat and we no longer need gold for rushing units, I would rather run 100% tax a few more turns in order to rush urgent things in our empire. (Settlers, workers, aqueducts, markets, even courthouses?!)

In any case I'll try to convince them to finish Astro within the next 5-6 turns. The earlier the better is my opinion, but they are still worried about the Eagles' "second wave". (They have two more turns GA.)

About research agreement: I posted a draft here, but no one commented yet. So should I go for something like that now?

How important do you think Bach's is?

 

[I. Larkin]

Frankly:
1) I did not understand your proposal about research agreement. It must be "simple" like who research what and will we trade tech for cash or for tech.
2) Situation changes with war and i am not sure that astro asap is the best for "us" and for us.
3) Bach obviously waste of resources.
4) Sure, cash flow now is the best option for us but it is time to think about Libs, Corthouses and Unis.
5) we may try south route if Kuche put some canons n0trh of Mettmann

Who will play next turn??

 

[Lanzelot]

I'm at my parents place. Internet and Civ is here, but if you want, you can take the mouse for the next handful of turns.

Galleys for south route are already on their way.

 

[I. Larkin]

It's definitely too early at the moment to make decisions like this. At the moment the motto should probably be "total war". The game can still be easily lost in a couple of turns...)

I disagree with that but don't want to discuss it in Kuhe forum. Anyway, some Cities need Libs for culture expansion. I think it is a good time to build it now.

 

[Lanzelot]

We could build two libs in Montsalvat and Avalon. But Avalon desperately needs a market first. So that will be quite a long time. Perhaps Clariton instead?
Edit: Or M-H. Then we could use the Barracks in Clariton in the meanwhile.

 

[I. Larkin]

Sure, we do not need more troops and Barracks (if we are not going to war vs Kuhe). Probably we may soon sell some.

 

[I. Larkin]

what about this reply:
"nice offer, thank you, but sorry, our deals include annihilation of the Eagles. was sure nice to talk to you. enjoy the AWW (aggressors war weariness), a special PBEM feature of this game!..."

Game come to turning point and we have to be careful and very polite with Kuche.
Formally (correct me if I am wrong) we have no agreement to annihilate Eagles. Moreover, it is impossible because of their single tile island City. It is good time now to make formal agreement with Kuche about war with Eagles. War economy agreement must be also there.

 

[templar_x]

i was not being serious and thought that would be clear. i won't post on that matter any more.

however, i do not think there is much left unclear. you DO have a deal about how this game is supposed to end, and the Eagles are in the KÜCHE´S way for that goal, so they practically are THEIR problem. and you decided to help them a little in the younger past, so that they are not annihilated.

but if they fail to annihilate the Eagles themselves, they will have less land to use in order to build their empire and spaceship.

or do you fear they make them their vassal and get the benefit of two cores instead of one? possible, but unlikely, don't you think? why keep in the game then? and i would not imagine that the Küche is made of that wood, either.

t_x

 

[I. Larkin]

I did not say that the post was wrong. Sure, humor help.
I only stress about important point where we are now.
Commercial Kuche has big advantage in long run as they have lower
corruption. Our chance to win this game is to carry out negotiation in
the way to get some big advantage vs Kuche at the "end of war"
time. Our previous experience shows that Lanzelot never in the mood
to perform negotiation this way.

 

[Lanzelot]

I think, our big advantage at the moment is: we have our continent already almost completely settled. By the end of the war, all towns should have reached size 6 and the science farms should be up and running, while the Küche still needs many many turns to settle and rebuild their continent.

I expect that we will be able to do 4-turn research by the end of the war, while the Küche will still need many turns, before they have recovered from that war. If we gain 1-2 techs advantage during that time, we can keep that lead until the end of the game, and even the commercial trait plus the 28% price reduction for the second player won't help them (because they can't research faster than 4-turn, no matter how much gold they have)?!

We only need to make sure that we have a perfect prebuild for Darwin.

Here is a draft for the war economy agreement:

Dear Cooks,

you have helped us in our darkest hour to survive the attack of the Anarchos, we will now help you to win your war with the Eagles as fast as possible. This goes without saying.
Nevertheless, we want to put our joint war effort on a firm basis now and make a contract about what we give to you and what we can expect to get back from you after the war.

Our contribution currently consists of three parts:

• Gold payments. You gave us an interest-free credit, and we will do the same. We expect nothing here, except that the balance will be evened out at the end of the war.
• Luxury support. Thanks to our luxury trade, we can enjoy the benefits of 5 resources compared to the Eagle's 3 resources. I think this is a decisive advantage over the Eagles, resulting in 20%-30% higher income compared to them! This does not cost us much, but nevertheless we expect a small compensation here, similar to the previous lux deal where we payed 50% of our income increase. We should not repeat this tedious "pea counting" exercise, so how about a fixed gpt-value that is added to the balance in our favor? Please make a suggestion of how much the extra luxury gains you on average over the current 20-turn period, and then let's take 40% of that.
• Military support. Whereas in the Anarcho-Brotherhood war you did not yet fight actively, we are now doing so in the Eagles-Küche war. In the beginning our contribution was still small, but I think the 7 Cavs we killed in the first two turns of the war, may well have been the difference between "very heavy losses" and "complete disaster" for you...
  Now we are going to embark on military operations of a much larger scale: within the next handful of turns or so, we can have ~15 extra Cavs on your continent, if we have enough gold for upgrades and enough ship capacity. Before we jump into this, we want you to consider the following points:
  • We have now recovered a bit from the devastation of our war and finally have a halfway decent production and commerce.
  • After the end of the Eagle GA, our continent should be pretty safe now.
  • So we could now invest our economic resources (shields and gold) into the build-up of our empire (rush missing workers and settlers to colonize our land, build some libraries/universities to finally become able to research). This would of course increase our chances of winning the game...
  • Or we could keep investing our resources into the military build-up and help you getting your continent under control quickly. This would of course increase your chances of winning the game...
  Ok, we are willing to go the second route (help you winning the war as quickly as possible), but we would like to get some compensation for this. We don't have any concrete ideas yet, but perhaps something like reduced prices for the next few techs while we can't research on our own yet, or an extra gold payment at the end of the war, etc. What do you think?

 

[I. Larkin]

Text is OK, the one point I want to insert.

"End of war" needs some definition. Eagles have single tile island City (Alcatraz) and war may go "forever". It is big advantage for Kuche since they have WH. Also, it may be hard to clean all small islands that Eagles have now. Very probably, however, they will quit at the moment they will lose their Continent. Or may be earlier. With all these variants it is hard to make solid agreement. Probably "Continent under control" is reasonable stage.

Will we trade techs after "end of war"?

I am not sure that Copernicus and Newton has very big advantage, but ToE is. May be to early start discussion with Kuche about that.

 

[Lanzelot]

Will we trade techs after "end of war"?

I am not sure that Copernicus and Newton has very big advantage, but ToE is. May be to early start discussion with Kuche about that.

I think "tech for tech" is ok to speed up the game a bit.

I did not understand the paragraph about ToE. You think we should make an agreement with the Küche about it? (I would not mention it and try to beat them to it?! By that time we should be able to research ourselfes and we can setup a perfectly timed prebuild. Or do you think they will beat us in any case?)

 

[I. Larkin]

I think "tech for tech" is ok to speed up the game a bit.

I did not understand the paragraph about ToE. You think we should make an agreement with the Küche about it? (I would not mention it and try to beat them to it?! By that time we should be able to research ourselfes and we can setup a perfectly timed prebuild. Or do you think they will beat us in any case?)

Yes, but I am not sure that we will be friendly with justanik for a long time.

Because of that I think better prepare ToE secretly without declaration.

I don't know what kind of dialog we may carry out with Kuche now. May be t-x has some ideas?

 

[Lanzelot]

justanick left the team. (Which is another reason why I think that our winning chances have increased a bit now.)

Ok, so I will not mention ToE. Only Copernicus and Newton. We can discuss these two, even if they are not that important.