templar_x
usually walks his talks
i am on holidays now, only juming in for a minute. the post over in the diplo section was the best i have seen in a very long time. you will be fine.
t_x
t_x
Diplomacy with the Deutsche Küche
- Thread starter Lanzelot
- Start date
Hmm, you are praising one of my diplo notes?!? That actually worries me quite a lot... 
templar_x
usually walks his talks
don´t get too excited, i had only one minute to read over it 
t_x
t_x
How do you like this solution to the Evolution problem:
I'm not too excited about that either... If you manage to get 1000bpt, while we are still doing 500bpt, it would not be in our interest to stop joined research... :ffft:justanick said:
I would prefer something like: we make a list of X industrial techs and assign them to both parties. Each party has to finish the techs assigned to it, then they are exchanged, and finally the ballance is evened out with gold payments. (During this phase, neither side is allowed to do any research.) One turn after the last gold payment has been made, both sides may start their research again, and the race begins.
Something like that. And the contract should also contain a reglementation for Copernicus/Newton (each side is allowed to build one) and for Theory of Evolution (e.g.: one side invests the 600 shields, the other side pays 1200g (the equivalent of 300s) and gets the two free techs for that. The 1200g must be spent for rushing 300s into some buildings, not for research.)
I think, an agreement like this must be signed soon now, before both sides start rushing for these wonders and we let the Eagles off the hook...
templar_x
usually walks his talks
or simply to rebuff the offer... it happened already once in this game, afair, when the Anarchos offered their empire. when this was not accepted, it was destroyed by themselves.
i think the concept of this game does not really go together with that kind of surrender. the Eagles should do what the Anarchie did.
and i repeat what i said many many pages ago, the game of the Eagles is so bad one´s eyes are filling with tears. when they profited from bad diplo, Lanzelot was unable to see it. now that they did not even withstand an attack right after their golden age, it becomes obvious.
t_x
i think the concept of this game does not really go together with that kind of surrender. the Eagles should do what the Anarchie did.
and i repeat what i said many many pages ago, the game of the Eagles is so bad one´s eyes are filling with tears. when they profited from bad diplo, Lanzelot was unable to see it. now that they did not even withstand an attack right after their golden age, it becomes obvious.
t_x
Yes, if the Eagles want to drop from the game, they have to disband their cities like the Anarchos did. Gifting everything to the Küche, would double their population to over 60%. Even I don't see any reason to continue the game under these conditions...
In any case, if the war is over next turn, it is even more important to settle what I wrote in post #204 above!! It is obvious: if the Küche can stop building millitary now and begins to prebuild Darwin, they will easily beat us to that wonder, using their remaining GA production. And the one who builds Darwin, will win the game in my opinion.
So should I post #204 in the Küche forum?
In any case, if the war is over next turn, it is even more important to settle what I wrote in post #204 above!! It is obvious: if the Küche can stop building millitary now and begins to prebuild Darwin, they will easily beat us to that wonder, using their remaining GA production. And the one who builds Darwin, will win the game in my opinion.
So should I post #204 in the Küche forum?
templar_x
usually walks his talks
i think i remember i made the Darwin statement 1 month ago or 2... so yes, i would say, any time is good to bring that to the table...
t_x
t_x
Translation of justanick's new proposal:
I've already stated that point 4 is not acceptable and we should share the techs in a 6-4 distribution. Otherwise the sum of 8315g in point 11 will break our neck. We should bring this down to at most 3000-4000g.
I will also ask for the sum of 2400g for ToE must be spent on rushing buildings, not for negative research.
The rest looks good to me. I'm all for going for this. I don't feel I have the time and nerves for another difficult war. A spaceship victory more or less plays itself effortlessly. A bit of calculation for the pre-builds, that's it more or less.
I've already stated that point 4 is not acceptable and we should share the techs in a 6-4 distribution. Otherwise the sum of 8315g in point 11 will break our neck. We should bring this down to at most 3000-4000g.
I will also ask for the sum of 2400g for ToE must be spent on rushing buildings, not for negative research.
The rest looks good to me. I'm all for going for this. I don't feel I have the time and nerves for another difficult war. A spaceship victory more or less plays itself effortlessly. A bit of calculation for the pre-builds, that's it more or less.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
sounds ok, only justanick fails to recognize that maximum common output is the wrong parameter in a competition, or a preparation for a competition.
thus your suggestion of "going slower but more equal" goes down the right street, buying you time to develop the empire.
honestly, you could quite as well declare them the winners. them taking over the Eagles´ cities is just too much of an advantage in my eyes.
anyway, for another detail, you should find an agreement how to get the army home. maybe they simply accept that you get a town for 1 turn and beam it home by gifting it back to them... the shields can be used well. otherwise they agree that you can keep it there until you can get a gelleon over.
will you calculate how much money you are going to need for the negative research? everything else could be spent, if it does not go to the Küche anyway. libs are necessary for your own research, but varsities probably have to wait until very late in the IA.
t_x
thus your suggestion of "going slower but more equal" goes down the right street, buying you time to develop the empire.
honestly, you could quite as well declare them the winners. them taking over the Eagles´ cities is just too much of an advantage in my eyes.
anyway, for another detail, you should find an agreement how to get the army home. maybe they simply accept that you get a town for 1 turn and beam it home by gifting it back to them... the shields can be used well. otherwise they agree that you can keep it there until you can get a gelleon over.
will you calculate how much money you are going to need for the negative research? everything else could be spent, if it does not go to the Küche anyway. libs are necessary for your own research, but varsities probably have to wait until very late in the IA.
t_x
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,413
Something like that. I think we have only chance to start war with Kuche in early IA era.
We may leave Army at their continent and pillage a lot and destroy their economy.
With fast ships we have good chances to capture all islands. It is unlikely, however, that we will capture their continent.
Another option is to build few Armies and pillage even more...
Against human opponents, Armies are not that effective in a war. The only way they can be effective here, is if we have some, and they don't have any (much) military, so the Armies can capture some core cities on the second turn.
But even that can be prevented, if they have enough workers: just create fortresses II around the landing site, and the Armies can't move on the second turn... And on the third turn, enough military should be there.
Could be it's possible to win by war, but I think it'll be a very tough long drawn war in any case. Do we really want to open that can of worms? Let's first try and see, how the peaceful option develops... If we can win that way, I would much prefer it. We'll find out during the next couple of turns, how "hopeless" the situation really is. 45% to 55% population doesn't mean much yet. More important is, who has the most workers when Steam is ready, and who finishes the Pyramids.
If we spend most gold for rushing workers, libs etc, while they run 100% research, we still have some chances to get into the lead. Also the rule, that we can start our own research in the turn where they do the last turn on the last tech, sounds very promising.
So I assume, at the moment it is irrelevant, what conditions I work out in the treaty?
PS: two more points that speak for a peaceful solution:
a) If we sign a treaty, I don't want to break it. Better play fair and loose than winning by a dirty treachery. And we already have second place, more than we ever expected after losing 4 towns and out Forbidden Palace...
b) They helped us in our darkest hour and we voted to never attack them.
(If they attack us, then ok. Of course we need to be prepared for that.)
But even that can be prevented, if they have enough workers: just create fortresses II around the landing site, and the Armies can't move on the second turn... And on the third turn, enough military should be there.
Could be it's possible to win by war, but I think it'll be a very tough long drawn war in any case. Do we really want to open that can of worms? Let's first try and see, how the peaceful option develops... If we can win that way, I would much prefer it. We'll find out during the next couple of turns, how "hopeless" the situation really is. 45% to 55% population doesn't mean much yet. More important is, who has the most workers when Steam is ready, and who finishes the Pyramids.
If we spend most gold for rushing workers, libs etc, while they run 100% research, we still have some chances to get into the lead. Also the rule, that we can start our own research in the turn where they do the last turn on the last tech, sounds very promising.
So I assume, at the moment it is irrelevant, what conditions I work out in the treaty?
PS: two more points that speak for a peaceful solution:
a) If we sign a treaty, I don't want to break it. Better play fair and loose than winning by a dirty treachery. And we already have second place, more than we ever expected after losing 4 towns and out Forbidden Palace...
b) They helped us in our darkest hour and we voted to never attack them.
(If they attack us, then ok. Of course we need to be prepared for that.)
justanick thinks, a space race game would be a pretty boring dead race and suggests the following options for ending the game:
1. Space race as discussed. But will be quite boring for the last 60 turns.
2. We ask somebody to modify the .sav game and increase the research cost factor dramatically.
3. Cooperation as discussed, but after the end of the cooperation, military options are again allowed. (Would this favor us because of our Armies? Don't really think Armies matter that much in MP. They are quite expensive and easily killed... Especially after railway and artillery is around.)
I added two other options:
4. We agree a Draw.
5. We play for 20K. (Are you good at 20K? I've recently looked a bit at ignas' latest HoF masterpiece and think I learned a bit about this victory condition. They have the advantage that they still have 8 turns GA, but their capital is only size 7, so probably not making more than 20s right now. We have the advantage that we have a pretty old GLib and we can build the HE.)
In 20K their big population advantage becomes irrelevant as well. So I think it offers chances?!
1. Space race as discussed. But will be quite boring for the last 60 turns.
2. We ask somebody to modify the .sav game and increase the research cost factor dramatically.
3. Cooperation as discussed, but after the end of the cooperation, military options are again allowed. (Would this favor us because of our Armies? Don't really think Armies matter that much in MP. They are quite expensive and easily killed... Especially after railway and artillery is around.)
I added two other options:
4. We agree a Draw.
5. We play for 20K. (Are you good at 20K? I've recently looked a bit at ignas' latest HoF masterpiece and think I learned a bit about this victory condition. They have the advantage that they still have 8 turns GA, but their capital is only size 7, so probably not making more than 20s right now. We have the advantage that we have a pretty old GLib and we can build the HE.)
In 20K their big population advantage becomes irrelevant as well. So I think it offers chances?!
templar_x
usually walks his talks
or just declare them winners. the discussion devaluates this game anyway, and that is, even more than it already was devaluated.
t_x
t_x
I only realize now, what justanick also said:
He wants to spend 8 turns on Communism and Sanitation and probably 4-6 turns on Anarchy?? That's at least 11 lost turns... We will win this space race easily...
So just insist on the agreed on plan?
He wants to spend 8 turns on Communism and Sanitation and probably 4-6 turns on Anarchy?? That's at least 11 lost turns... We will win this space race easily...
So just insist on the agreed on plan?
I. Larkin
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 4,413
We may offer a draw, and if they declined agree whatever they offer, get Cities on the island (as agreed) and start military operation at the time we want. we have some chances to damage them as we have some troops on their continent and northern part poorly defended.
20k is a big advantage at feudalism, with many high population cities.
20k is a big advantage at feudalism, with many high population cities.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
i don´t think he wants to revolt, but the police stations. or don´t they come with communism?
and since he wants to researcht that crap on YOUR time, and for YOUR money, it won´t do you any good under this contract, even if he really wants to go down that road.
justanick is a funny player: his knowledge about the game mechanics are so great that they always stand in his way of also simply playing good.
t_x
and since he wants to researcht that crap on YOUR time, and for YOUR money, it won´t do you any good under this contract, even if he really wants to go down that road.
justanick is a funny player: his knowledge about the game mechanics are so great that they always stand in his way of also simply playing good.
t_x
Ok, draw. That`s already a great achievement for us...
Some time ago I really thought we would have good winning chances, but the fact that the Eagles collapsed so quickly, turns the game against us. Now I think our chances would be less than 50%.
Some time ago I really thought we would have good winning chances, but the fact that the Eagles collapsed so quickly, turns the game against us. Now I think our chances would be less than 50%.
templar_x
usually walks his talks
we had good winning chances TWICE, the first, after the uber-start, getting torpedoed by an alliance of Lanze-and-d7/Loki-Diplo, and the 2nd by so-named Eagles who played incredibly inferior and rather like chicken than eagles.
i mean really, that the Eagles played the worst game of all teams: they had the best land to start with, everyone trusted them, they got 60% of their continent without a war. but they believed the Anarchos´ nonsense, cancelled the diplo with us (with that alliance, they for sure would have won), still did not continue their diplo with the Küch for whatever reasons, failed in their premature attack and were not able to defend their core against a comparably tiny invasion force.
the only good action they did is decline the Anarchos´ offer to gift them their cities!
t_x
i mean really, that the Eagles played the worst game of all teams: they had the best land to start with, everyone trusted them, they got 60% of their continent without a war. but they believed the Anarchos´ nonsense, cancelled the diplo with us (with that alliance, they for sure would have won), still did not continue their diplo with the Küch for whatever reasons, failed in their premature attack and were not able to defend their core against a comparably tiny invasion force.
the only good action they did is decline the Anarchos´ offer to gift them their cities!
t_x
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