Do Hardcore Players (non-modders) need User Friendly Modding Tools?

[Kruelgor]

I'm posting this in the General Discussions section because you're the audience I'm specifically targeting here, and not the hardcore modder audience.

I constantly get into this debate with the hardcore modders, and according to them they absolutely DO NOT want the average player to have access to super easy user-friendly modding tools.

I bring this topic up primarily because it's a growing trend among video games to make "modding" and custom made scenarios extremely user friendly for all players. Little Big Planet, for example, is the #1 selling game on the Sony Playstation 3 and one of the highest rated games of all time for consoles. SONY even bought out the company that makes Little Big Planet because they too see the potential. The game caters to the idea that players can create anything their imagination can come up with and the community can play their creations. No programming languages required, no coding experience, and no $10,000+ software required. All the tools to create anything your imagination can think of are all available right there in the game.

Many hardcore Civ fans may not have the technical know how on the actual coding, or they may lack the thousands of dollars in game making software often times required, but do have the imagination and ability to create amazing scenarios.

I would like to see the CiV series to go the "Little Big Planet" route in allowing players to easily create units, tech trees, leaderheads, technologies, maps, and more. We would see a 10,000%+ increase in the number of scenarios and mods to play.

This is something I would like to see starting with Civilization VI

 

[awesome]

I constantly get into this debate with the hardcore modders, and according to them they absolutely DO NOT want the average player to have access to super easy user-friendly modding tools.

so basically, they're being elitists. there should probably be an option to use either modding tools or coding. obviously, the coding would have more possibilities.

 

[Kruelgor]

so basically, they're being elitists. there should probably be an option to use either modding tools or coding. obviously, the coding would have more possibilities.

Actually, if the tools are created properly, the average player would be able to create anything a coder could.

 

[Oneluv]

"I constantly get into this debate with the hardcore modders, and according to them they absolutely DO NOT want the average player to have access to super easy user-friendly modding tools."


Would anyone care to expand on why the above might be true? Short of Aspergers running rife thru the hardcore modder comm(seems possible) what could be the reason for this miserly attitude?

 

[Fabiano1979]

Civ fans are perfect for this "Little Big Planet" approach. We usually play more time of civ than other fans would play their games, so we would really enjoy this "power". Besides, we are a lot more open mind to MODs than other series.

It would be sweet if everyone could create their own MOD, doesnt matter the quallity. The best ones will become more public of course, but the activity of creating for itself would be fun.

But im not sure if we'll see that become true, even the world builder the devs take out of the game. If you want it you need to go download one, not that is hard, but not everybody knows that. I, for example, just discover it a couple weeks ago.

 

[awesome]

Actually, if the tools are created properly, the average player would be able to create anything a coder could.

well, maybe. i'm not really sure if you can expect the developers to design tools that let you overhaul the entire game and remake the afterworld mod from civ4, just with tools.

 

[Kruelgor]

well, maybe. i'm not really sure if you can expect the developers to design tools that let you overhaul the entire game and remake the afterworld mod from civ4, just with tools.

It can be done, at least the most important aspects of the game can be. Of course there will always be that obscure little used thingy majig that a pro modder could make, but doesn't really need to be incorporated into mainstream tools since it's not that important.

I'm referring to the main aspects of the game, units, leaderheads, civilization attributes, tech tree, new technologies, events, etc... all managed by one interface and extremely user friendly.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'm posting this in the General Discussions section because you're the audience I'm specifically targeting here, and not the hardcore modder audience.

I constantly get into this debate with the hardcore modders, and according to them they absolutely DO NOT want the average player to have access to super easy user-friendly modding tools.

I bring this topic up primarily because it's a growing trend among video games to make "modding" and custom made scenarios extremely user friendly for all players. Little Big Planet, for example, is the #1 selling game on the Sony Playstation 3 and one of the highest rated games of all time for consoles. SONY even bought out the company that makes Little Big Planet because they too see the potential. The game caters to the idea that players can create anything their imagination can come up with and the community can play their creations. No programming languages required, no coding experience, and no $10,000+ software required. All the tools to create anything your imagination can think of are all available right there in the game.

Many hardcore Civ fans may not have the technical know how on the actual coding, or they may lack the thousands of dollars in game making software often times required, but do have the imagination and ability to create amazing scenarios.

I would like to see the CiV series to go the "Little Big Planet" route in allowing players to easily create units, tech trees, leaderheads, technologies, maps, and more. We would see a 10,000%+ increase in the number of scenarios and mods to play.

This is something I would like to see starting with Civilization VI

This is an absolutely deplorable misrepresentation of our discussions, and you know it.

To summarize my points rather than get into it again:

1. Any GUI-based mod tools must be extensible, or they are more limited than useful (IE, any mod which adds new capabilities is suddenly unable to use the GUIs, unless they themselves can be modded).
2. Any limitation to the overall ability we have to change the game is unacceptable; If making modding "beginner friendly" consists of making xml edits simple but removing the capability to add new mechanics, we have a massive issue. None of the popular Civ4 mods would be possible, nor anything even approaching their scope.
3. Any time spent on modtools is time the developers are not spending on improving the base game; Like it or not, the majority of civ players never touch a mod, and never will. Little Big Planet is a brand new IP designed specifically to appeal to that kind of gamer, whereas Civ has always had to stand on it's own two legs without mods. The game should absolutely be good in it's own right before more time is spent on mod tools, other than those already promised (IE, fixing the existing ones, getting us the DLL, etc).
4. Anyone who is actually willing to learn will find the forums full of people willing to answer questions. This is exactly how I learned, and as a result I see it as an obligation to help others in turn.

In other words, yes, such tools would be great, if made properly. However, there are far more important things for them to be working on right now, and if you actually have any desire to learn there are many people willing to help you. Get to learning.

I also refuse to vote; My choice would be "Yes, but not until the base game is capable of standing on it's own."

 

[Valkrionn]

well, maybe. i'm not really sure if you can expect the developers to design tools that let you overhaul the entire game and remake the afterworld mod from civ4, just with tools.

It can't be; Afterworld used extensive DLL and Python edits. Any tools of the nature he is talking about would be more or less limited to XML, perforce.

It can be done, at least the most important aspects of the game can be. Of course there will always be that obscure little used thingy majig that a pro modder could make, but doesn't really need to be incorporated into mainstream tools since it's not that important.

I'm referring to the main aspects of the game, units, leaderheads, civilization attributes, tech tree, new technologies, events, etc... all managed by one interface and extremely user friendly.

Not so. You could add units, buildings, leaders, anything xml can do. You would not be able to get into scripted events, or anything that actually brought that mod to life.

XML is extremely simple to use, and is at root simple text modifications. Again, there are many people willing to help.

 

[Kruelgor]

It can't be; Afterworld used extensive DLL and Python edits. Any tools of the nature he is talking about would be more or less limited to XML, perforce.



Not so. You could add units, buildings, leaders, anything xml can do. You would not be able to get into scripted events, or anything that actually brought that mod to life.

XML is extremely simple to use, and is at root simple text modifications. Again, there are many people willing to help.

So, just for the record. You voted "no", right?

 

[Valkrionn]

So, just for the record. You voted "no", right?

Perhaps you should actually read the posts you reply to rather than make blind assumptions as to their content.

I also refuse to vote; My choice would be "Yes, but not until the base game is capable of standing on it's own."

As I have said to you before (so many times), the tools we have now work. Parts of the base game do not. Therefore, the developers have far more pressing things to be working on. Wait for an expansion and then demand your tools; I'll likely even be one of the people supporting it.

 

[Kruelgor]

Perhaps you should actually read the posts you reply to rather than make blind assumptions as to their content.

Asking a yes or no question is not an assumption. I'll ask you again, for the record, Did you vote "no"?

 

[Valkrionn]

And again, no I did not vote "No", as I am not satisfied with the two options in the poll. There should be a third option, either "Not at this time" or "Yes, but only after the base game plays well". A simple Yes or No rarely covers all your bases.

 

[Kruelgor]

And again, no I did not vote "No", as I am not satisfied with the two options in the poll. There should be a third option, either "Not at this time" or "Yes, but only after the base game plays well". A simple Yes or No rarely covers all your bases.

And you speak from a "pro modders" point of view, right? Hence your signature.

 

[Valkrionn]

Also, one thing: What "thousands of dollars of game making software" is EVER required to mod Civilization? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You are able to mod the game using completely free tools; Hell, Notepad is capable of it. Even compiling the DLL in civ4 is possible via a free tool. The only thing requiring any sort of money is if you are interested in creating art assets... Which frankly, is a talent, and is something quite possible via Blender (a free tool).

 

[Valkrionn]

And you speak from a "pro modders" point of view, right? Hence your signature.

I've told you numerous times I am not a "pro modder". I do not count myself amongst the best modders.

I speak from the point of view of a civ fan, who actually realizes that the game must be in a working state before more time is spent on mod tools that are not absolutely required.

 

[Valkrionn]

You quite obviously are only capable of interpreting arguments against you in one way; Anyone who disagrees is an elitist prick who only has his own interests at heart, while you are the magnanimous civ lover only interested in bettering the game.

Never mind any reasonable argument against you; It is quite obviously a ploy to further the importance of modders, to the horrible detriment of the game.


Let's see what other posters have to say. I have stated my opinions quite clearly and rationally; You have ignored them completely and instead attempt to lambaste me as an elitist.

Moderator Action: Please argue the points, don't make things personal.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Kruelgor]

Also, one thing: What "thousands of dollars of game making software" is EVER required to mod Civilization?

So if the complex 3D software was free, would that be as equivalent and as good as providing the tools within the game for everyone to use?

Here's the MILLION dollar question to reveal your true colors. Would you support the "Little Big Planet" approach if modders like yourself still had your same old traditional access to modding that you've always had? Why would you be against something to make it easier for the common player?

Btw, Granny 3D software, which is what the game developers used to make CIV5 animations, runs between $12,500 to $15,000 http://www.radgametools.com/sales.htm It's also extremely complex and not userfriendly.

Moderator Action: As stated above, please argue the points, don't make things personal with statements such as the one you put in red.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Valkrionn]

So if the complex 3D software was free, would that be as equivalent and as good as providing the tools within the game for everyone to use?

Would you support the "Little Big Planet" approach if modders like yourself still had your same old traditional access that you've always had? Why would you be against something to make it easier for the common player?



Btw, Granny 3D software, which is what the game developers used to make CIV5, runs between $12,500 to $15,000 http://www.radgametools.com/sales.htm

It's also extremely complex and not userfriendly.

I've answered that question many times before, including in this very thread. Further proof you do not actually read the posts, rather than jumping to conclusions as to their content.

In any case, Yes, I would support it! So long as deep modding remains possible, simplifying basic additions is absolutely a worthy goal. However, this can and should wait until the game is fun in it's own right! Civilization is an old IP, one that has always had to stand on it's own gameplay; Mods may be much loved, but the fact remains that a majority of players do not use them.

And I was under the impression that a combination of Blender and a free tool provided by Firaxis in the SDK is capable of creating new units. At the very least, they have imported units from civilization 4 using free tools.

 

[The_J]

So if the complex 3D software was free, would that be as equivalent and as good as providing the tools within the game for everyone to use?

Why should it not ?

Btw, Granny 3D software, which is what the game developers used to make CIV5 animations, runs between $12,500 to $15,000 http://www.radgametools.com/sales.htm It's also extremely complex and not userfriendly.

That's pro software. If you want to argue against this software, then you also might want to try to argue that a NASA spaceship is not userfriendly and extremly complex.

It might not be clear, but 3D modelling is something for which you need either a) a degree b) experience c) motivation and talent. Real modelling is not something everyone can do.