Do You Cry?

[Manfred Belheim]

try finding a single big-budget action movie where the men are actually emotionally expressive and not some dumb patriarchal stereotype who is only allowed to cry when his daughter is kidnapped by the bad buys.

Maybe big budget action movies aren't really the place to be looking for this sort of characterisation?

 

[Zkribbler]

I'm crying for the Bahamas.

 

[Truthy]

again, possibly true, but then you are even acknowleding yourself that you're talking about a minority view. how many people care about literate? how many of those care about high-brow literature? it's quite literally the fringe of the fringe. but yeah, those conversations are also part of our societal discourse.

Whoops, I undermined my own argument by saying "highbrow." I guess that's not the word I wanted. What I mean is stuff that's considered good. Stuff that's valued by our culture.

For one, our culture strongly emphasizes a lot of alternatives to the stuff you're talking about. Han Solo is a macho dude. But he's not likable at first and then you've got Luke. Darth Vader is more macho and all that, but he's the villain. Which gets me to a second point. Stereotypical macho guys aren't usually good characters our culture values. They're more often villains, stock characters, and heroes of forgettable stories. Or their machismo is something they overcome and conquer as the central part of their story arc. Take the Rock's character in Moana. There are exceptions, sure. James Bond is one. But I've never gotten the sense society was seriously telling me be more like James Bond. It's a fantasy, not an expectation (and to counteract any be more like James Bond messages, James Bond has been controversial and widely described as a bad influence and misogynistic since Dr. No). Which brings me to a third point. I don't think the stereotypical portrayals of masculinity you describe are injunctions. But I think the alternatives are injunctions. Moana explicitly tells us "don't be like the Rock [until later in the end of the movie]." James Bond, on the other hand, doesn't tell us "be like James Bond." James Bond invites us into a fantasy of killing commies and bedding hot women in exciting locales. But I've never gotten the sense it enjoins me to do anything. I think this pattern is very common. What stories actually try to teach us how to behave? What stories try to make a compelling argument about how we should conduct ourselves? What stories are just fantasies and exercises in escapism?

Another point: in the paragraph above, the whole time I'm operating with the assumption that we're all pretty much in agreement about what characters are good, what characters are bad, what stories are good, and what stories are bad. Why is it that I can do that? Why isn't this something anyone feels the need to argue about? Because we're all operating with the same set of cultural assumptions here. That's actually what our culture instills in us. Writers always think they're being transgressive by depicting masculinity in a not-James-Bond-kinda-way. Yet all writers also know that to make a character likable--male or female--you often have to make them vulnerable, sensitive, and emotionally complex. That's not transgressive. That's not in contradiction of our culture. That's propagating mainstream values, expectations, and roles for men that everyone pretty much agrees on. And that's ok. I'm not saying it's inherently bad. But it is, I strongly believe, the true set of values our culture promulgates. I just don't think it's James Bond or Liam Neeson from Taken.

it is true, for your and for me, too, we're (by the way, self inflicted!) possibly more confronted with different views of masculinity, because we both despise crappy movies, team sports and all that jazz. in our "circles" a different narrative of masculinity is spun. I don't really get why you think that is bad, still.

otoh, there is a lot of media one almost CANNOT get away from, that forces the very opposite stereotypes: billboards, ads, online targeted ads, magazines, all of those work much more subtle, but they're still a strong force. at least my entertainment I can choose mostly for myself, however I am influenced by these aforementioned factors/industries against my own will.

Do you guys watch Spongebob in Germany? Vaguely relevant.

Anyway, I think today's Western guy in his 20s has spent much more time in settings that definitely don't encourage the kinds of stereotypes you're talking about and do much more to discourage them. In my case, I bet it's literally thousands of times greater. Another point is that psychology shows the peer environment is one of the few things that actually has a really big impact on people. It's hard to control for cultural stuff that everyone's exposed to, but it's probably much stronger than time spent watching James Bond or Liam Neeson. I think for most Western guys of the last few decades, our peer environments, which are strongly shaped by school, don't really enforce the stereotypes you allude to at all. Combine that with the force of all the cultural signals that do not enforce stereotypes. Again noting that (1) a lot of the signals that propagate macho man stereotypes don't make much of an injunction of how to behave (2) many cultural signals are closer to the opposite. Ads don't contradict this. They peddle fantasies, not arguments for how to be a man. And they're easy to ignore. I've never paid much attention to ads, always saw their portrayals of masculinity as something for other people to be concerned about, and I don't think I'm unique here. Plus, ads don't uniformly portray macho guys, unless it's like fitness programs. Usually it's just attractive and happy guys.

The area where I think men are under the most pressure from society is actually humor. I think our culture really insists we be funny. But that's actually ok for me because people IRL usually think I'm funny.

your second half tho I do not understand at all. how is anger not THE SINGLE most tolerated emotion. I think being openly angry is the foremost reason that Gordon Ramsey made it as a TV celebrity. I think angry outbursts are one of the main ways that conservatives showmen or radio hosts connect to their male audience. (impotent) rage is incredibly en vogue right now, not just with elliot rodger.

Uhhh, I'm hesitant to get into innate behavioral stuff in this thread, but I think there are simpler reasons for some of this than "this is what our culture expects of men." For example, I wouldn't look at violent video games and say it's good evidence our culture wants men to be aggressive. But look, we spend wayyy more time in environments where aggression and anger are very strongly discouraged. And by and large, people are much more likely to think anger and aggression are unhealthy and bad, even pathological, than they are to think those are acceptable. They are bad things in like everyone's mind. And that's a point I'm trying to make. What the people around us actually think is a bigger influence on us than Rush Limbaugh or Gordon Ramsey. For one, it's more reflective of what our culture truly expects. Two, psychology research is unequivocal that it has a bigger influence on behavior.

Edit: I'm worried this post could come across as "actually, society is misandrist, not misogynist." That's not my belief or my goal. For example, I think in a lot of ways our culture has a "you do you" attitude towards men that it's less generous with extending to women.

 

[MaryKB]

Oh dear, I feel you're pretty much wrong on everything, and you seem to be more talking about how it should be or how you want it to be, rather than how it really is.

I feel like you have your "rules" and "exceptions" reversed. I agree with @yung.carl.jung.

As for crying, remember that "Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted." I feel the ability to fully express your sadness (especially for someone else) is a virtue.

 

[Truthy]

I'm going to reserve my responses for @yung.carl.jung. Though I'm interested in dropping the discussion to avoid further derailing the thread.

 

[Lexicus]

I think for most Western guys of the last few decades, our peer environments, which are strongly shaped by school, don't really enforce the stereotypes you allude to at all.

My school days, and my college days too, were a stew of toxic masculinity, and I thin our ages are pretty close so I honestly dunno what you're talkin about
Most of the stuff you're talking about viz. emotionally repressed masculinity I only really became exposed to in the last five years. I had to unlearn a lot of bad conditioning to get where I am now.

And I grew up in a family where the woman was the breadwinner and the man was the nurturing caretaker.

I mostly do not cry. That's partially because I'm not very emotionally expressive in general though I am pretty emotional for the most part.

 

[AdamCrock]

My mom died in November 2016. I didn't cry then, I was being too sad, hopeless and even angry and ashamed that I am angry. My psychiatrist told me that being angry when loosing someone very close is normal and I should't blame myself for that. It was a mix of emotions all the time. I felt like on drugs after one sleepless night after another. By the time of the funeral I simply did not have strength to cry. Nowadays I usually cry when I suddenly are reminded of my mom or when I think of her. When sadness and melancholy sets in I usually pray for her - that helps a lot. My only regret is that I didn't spend more time with her when I could... so have that in mind people and be kind to Your folks and maybe spend more time with them ? I am sure they'll appreciate.

 

[Farm Boy]

Edit: I'm worried this post could come across as "actually, society is misandrist, not misogynist." That's not my belief or my goal. For example, I think in a lot of ways our culture has a "you do you" attitude towards men that it's less generous with extending to women.

Nah. You're right about the humor thing. Anger is pretty complicated. There's a lot of rage-as-entertainment. Especially in places like Youtube and talk-tv. It's everywhere. But that is media. Actual displays of frustration and anger, all the way down to grade school, I've never seen them so discouraged. The seven year old has a hard time navigating what types of mean are allowed to pass and which emotional reactions the teachers will punish as well as peers. The whole game, and it's not like it's a new one, is to visibly piss off somebody that can't shrug it off and can't strike back without bringing down an escalation in punishment. Once you're on top, you get to be angry.

 

[Hygro]

My school days, and my college days too, were a stew of toxic masculinity, and I thin our ages are pretty close so I honestly dunno what you're talkin about
Most of the stuff you're talking about viz. emotionally repressed masculinity I only really became exposed to in the last five years. I had to unlearn a lot of bad conditioning to get where I am now.

And I grew up in a family where the woman was the breadwinner and the man was the nurturing caretaker.

I mostly do not cry. That's partially because I'm not very emotionally expressive in general though I am pretty emotional for the most part.

Out here the culture growing up was largely as truthy described. Maybe the east coast had a more old school holdover? But I spent some time in a conservative suburban highschool freshman year and it was definitely a lot more regressive than growing up around Berkeley. Mainstream culture aka Disney-selling-to-the-biggest-audience has definitely followed the Berkeley and progressive example, albeit watered down.

Portrayals of hyper-masculinity has largely been alternative, side character, villainous, or comic relief. When a traditionally and/or toxic masculine figure is the protagonist it tends to be a more renegade anti-hero, wolf of Wall Street, Tyler Durden scenario. Everyone knows James Bond is evil. Jafar is a the patriarchy, Aladdin is the cool hip softer boy. The violent captain of the football team is hot but so is the cruel cheerleader and the people you inferior with and want to be friends with are the nerdy girl and the big gay dude in mean girls.

And it works in my own life. If I’m fiercer and more masculine the people who take to me do so faster and with more passion but way more people take to me when I’m chiller and easier and more androgynous in my presentation then way more people are way more comfortable. The old spice man (men) is not to be taken as the paragon of masculine role modeling but as the alternative that isn’t actual us or a real route.

 

[Truthy]

My school days, and my college days too, were a stew of toxic masculinity, and I thin our ages are pretty close so I honestly dunno what you're talkin about
Most of the stuff you're talking about viz. emotionally repressed masculinity I only really became exposed to in the last five years. I had to unlearn a lot of bad conditioning to get where I am now.

And I grew up in a family where the woman was the breadwinner and the man was the nurturing caretaker.

I mostly do not cry. That's partially because I'm not very emotionally expressive in general though I am pretty emotional for the most part.

Lol ok, I'll contradict myself to respond to this. Don't mean to brush you aside,@MaryKB. I just don't want to get into a multi-front debate that sucks up all my time and totally derails the thread.

Well, I am trying to be upfront about the fact that my perception of these issues is unusual. Now, that seems like it contradicts my position in and of itself. If I say, "our culture does x" and everyone else says "no it doesn't", then it's bizarre to say I'm right and everyone else is wrong. That being said, I still see quite a lot of stuff in popular culture and made some arguments that should stand anyway. And I think my basic claim that our culture sends a more varied mixture of messages to guys than commonly acknowledged is true and not just me being weird.

So about the peer environment thing. I've never really been part of a clique of guys. My social circles have almost all been progressives (and the stray libertarian) with a mixture of genders. I guess I can see what you're saying though. Around a year ago I ended up hanging out with two guys who became hella sexist and toxic. But after getting uncomfortable, I left and never talked to either of them again.

Edit: for the record, I grew up in Arlington, VA, which is a pretty liberal area (you live in DC iirc, so you're probably aware).

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Nah. You're right about the humor thing. Anger is pretty complicated. There's a lot of rage-as-entertainment. Especially in places like Youtube and talk-tv. It's everywhere. But that is media. Actual displays of frustration and anger, all the way down to grade school, I've never seen them so discouraged.

that is also true, to some degree. really, really depends on the context and the person. also @Truthy don't worry I would never group you in with MRA filth or any of that sort. I'm happy sou share a different viewpoint and don't rly find it upsetting in any way. I'll reply thoughtfully when I have more time.

 

[Farm Boy]

The old spice man (men) is not to be taken as the paragon of masculine role modeling but as the alternative that isn’t actual us or a real route.

Oh pish. It's 2019. The Old Spice men with grease under their fingernails and chickenhorsehocky on their boots are soft with their kids and have wives that pull in the cash flow. If you listen to the more sentimental crap about splinting broken sparrow wings they were always there. The money has definitely been shifting hard. That's not presented as a negative. Sure, there's dbags that drink and hit their kids, or do it without the drinking, but they're from everywhere.

really, really depends on the context and the person

I'm just glad they don't immediately try to drug them into stupors anymore.

 

[Truthy]

Out here the culture growing up was largely as truthy described. Maybe the east coast had a more old school holdover? But I spent some time in a conservative suburban highschool freshman year and it was definitely a lot more regressive than growing up around Berkeley. Mainstream culture aka Disney-selling-to-the-biggest-audience has definitely followed the Berkeley and progressive example, albeit watered down.

Portrayals of hyper-masculinity has largely been alternative, side character, villainous, or comic relief. When a traditionally and/or toxic masculine figure is the protagonist it tends to be a more renegade anti-hero, wolf of Wall Street, Tyler Durden scenario. Everyone knows James Bond is evil. Jafar is a the patriarchy, Aladdin is the cool hip softer boy. The violent captain of the football team is hot but so is the cruel cheerleader and the people you inferior with and want to be friends with are the nerdy girl and the big gay dude in mean girls.

And it works in my own life. If I’m fiercer and more masculine the people who take to me do so faster and with more passion but way more people take to me when I’m chiller and easier and more androgynous in my presentation then way more people are way more comfortable. The old spice man (men) is not to be taken as the paragon of masculine role modeling but as the alternative that isn’t actual us or a real route.

Yeahhh, all this stuff. Including the "when I’m chiller and easier and more androgynous in my presentation then way more people are way more comfortable." Almost that exact same thing but with respect to stoicism instead of aggression is what got me and Carl on this tangent to begin with.

 

[Farm Boy]

@Hygro I mean, am I off? Are working stiffs out in the burbs and cities really that different? It's not like I've developed and maintained a ton of friendships easily in that direction. Maybe they are?

 

[Hygro]

I find a lot of kids in college came from more regressive places and would try to out Berkeley Berkeley. They would make general, verisimilitudonous grand narrative claims attached to a lot of shaming so you would get in line real quick and start saying it back. I remember a very hip and liberal professor in a class on Classical Greek sexuality have to give a general rebuke after the first essay as many of us, me included got COMPLETELY hung up on pontificating against the oppression of women at that time through a modern lens and being unable to engage with the material at its level which was the point of the class.

It took years of deprogramming to realize it was the same super culture driving the social justice movement to believe itself to be the rebel minority that was also putting out the same message in every kids show, family movie, most media, our corporate environment, our school administrating, basically all the powerful public facing institutions that shape us.

My Facebook news feed is full of men and women fighting against literally no one else on my news feed, aka preaching to the choir while talking as though they’re the underdogs, telling us it’s okay to cry among many other tropes against “traditional” masculinity.

 

[Hygro]

@Hygro I mean, am I off? Are working stiffs out in the burbs and cities really that different? It's not like I've developed and maintained a ton of friendships easily in that direction. Maybe they are?

The distant suburbs, not the parts of cities that are single family homes, are a fundamentally different culture that the urban cores. Even in San Antonio which has a mostly suburban layout is totally and culturally a city.

But times have changed too so I dunno. Most of my experience is in big metros.

 

[Hygro]

Oh pish. It's 2019. The Old Spice men with grease under their fingernails and chicken**** on their boots are soft with their kids and have wives that pull in the cash flow. If you listen to the more sentimental crap about splinting broken sparrow wings they were always there. The money has definitely been shifting hard.

Im literally talking about the characters portrayed by Terry Crews and that other guy in the old spice commercials. They portray tropes of masculine glory exaggerated to the extreme but for a much softer audience. I was definitely my most party-line feminist while wearing old spice in my early 20s.

 

[Truthy]

It took years of deprogramming to realize it was the same super culture driving the social justice movement to believe itself to be the rebel minority that was also putting out the same message in every kids show, family movie, most media, our corporate environment, our school administrating, basically all the powerful public facing institutions that shape us.

THIS. I can't remember when I had the same epiphany, but I've felt like an alien ever since. I have felt like an altright madman for years because no one else sees it or talks about it.

 

[Hygro]

THIS. I can't remember when I had the same epiphany, but I've felt like an alien ever since. I have felt like an altright madman for years because no one else sees it or talks about it.

Well you get punished for saying it unless you have certain clout at which point everyone who would have punished you will agree instead.

But the position is getting a lot more mainstream, that we’re (pro social justice feminist progressives) mainstream, and if you get away from people who *live* the bubble (aka get offline, or people whose social mobility and career clout comes from championing popular virtues) they also recognize it. Which is to say most folks.

Like there’s a reason a super hated politician, Hillary Clinton, got 3 million more votes running a plastic vanilla bull garbage campaign on “because I’m a woman” (as her message) because that’s exactly where mainstream America was in 2015 when she started running. Don’t confuse some electoral gangsters who exploited a system with “real America”.

 

[Lexicus]

Maybe the east coast had a more old school holdover?

Idk man it was like, the trap rap era, that's the vibe everyone was on.

My Facebook news feed is full of men and women fighting against literally no one else on my news feed, aka preaching to the choir while talking as though they’re the underdogs, telling us it’s okay to cry among many other tropes against “traditional” masculinity.

Yeah, that sounds about right.