Do you think you understand corruption (pre-C3C)?

[alexman]

Calculation for various map sizes. Can we clarify what that number is please? I think that I read in the 1.21f notes that the huge map is reduced to 160 by 160.

For huge is the Fd # for mapsize = (160 x 160) 25600?
Is the standard map size Fd = (100x100) 10000?

Fd = 3.6 * Distance / MapSize

As Sebastian pointed out in an earlier post, use the average of the two map dimensions for map size. The default map sizes are equal in both dimensions. (MapSize = 100 for a standard-sized map)

For number of cities, how do you arrive at Nopt? One fellow stated 32 cities, but I couldn't follow the logic to the number there for my own calculations.

With 1.21f:

Nopt = OptimalCities * (1 + N/4) * DifficultyPercent / 100 + Nciv

OptimalCities is a setting in the editor for each map size. I believe 32 is the default for huge maps.

DifficultyPercent is also in the editor, under difficulty settings. It ranges from 100 (Chieftain) to 70 (deity).

Nciv = 1 for commercial civs. Zero otherwise.

N = Number of corruption-reducing buildings in that city (courthouse and police station). Add one for waste calculations for a city in WLTK.

 

[MuddyOne]

Alexman, very good work. I have been running some tests to get a feel for corruption under different governments though. The FP does seem to have a 5% reduction under communism, despite what the description would lead you to believe. I posted the map I was working with in the following thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22684

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by chiefpaco

Funny how the math works out there. However, factories modify "productive" (the blue ones) shields only.

Case II:
I have a city with 12 wasted shields & 58 "productive" shields. It has a factory & hydro plant. Waste % as a whole is 12/(12+58) = 17.1%

If I sell the factory (& thereby eliminating the hydro effect), I still get 12 wasted shields but now just 29 productive ones. Waste % as a whole is 12/(12+29) = 29.3%

By this example, the fact that 12 wasted shields remained shows that factories affect productive (blue) shields only. It also illustrates alexman's other resolution, that waste % will decrease by adding improvements that multiply your productive output.

Sorry for being late with my answer, but then this thread deserves to be upped now and again.

Take your case II: without factory, you get 70.7% of the 41 shields you would get without corruption. Add the factory (and hydro effect), and an uncorrupted city would have given 82 shields. Your city only gives 58 shields, which is still exactly 70.7%. So, the factory is affected by corruption.

Look at it another way: The factory effectively gives you 29 additional productive shields. I assume the city in question has a court house, and by selling it off, the city w/o factory would go down from 29 to f.ex. 20 productive shields due to added corruption. Since factory only increases the number of productive shields, the factory (with hydro) no longer will give you 29 additional shields, but only 20.
So the factory produces less shields just because the city became more corrupted, i.e. it is affected by corruption.

 

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Sorry for being late with my answer, but then this thread deserves to be upped now and again.

Take your case II: without factory, you get 70.7% of the 41 shields you would get without corruption. Add the factory (and hydro effect), and an uncorrupted city would have given 82 shields. Your city only gives 58 shields, which is still exactly 70.7%. So, the factory is affected by corruption.

Look at it another way: The factory effectively gives you 29 additional productive shields. I assume the city in question has a court house, and by selling it off, the city w/o factory would go down from 29 to f.ex. 20 productive shields due to added corruption. Since factory only increases the number of productive shields, the factory (with hydro) no longer will give you 29 additional shields, but only 20.
So the factory produces less shields just because the city became more corrupted, i.e. it is affected by corruption.

I believe I understand your argument, but there is a flaw in your logic. You're saying if there were no corruption in this city, there would be 41 shields w/o a factory, and 82 with one, correct? This is true. Also, if there were the given amount of corruption, there would be 12 waste and 29 shields w/o, 12 waste and 58 shields with. True as well. Now, 29/41 = 58/82, so you argue the total number of shields is relatively the same either way. However, this hypothetical scenarios are not the case at hand. Although the overall effects are the same, the factory itself is not affected by corruption and produces only usable shields. The factory does not affect waste. The results would be the same either way, for if it did double your waste, your net results would not change, and neither would the percentages.

 

[planetfall]

Maybe I don't. I missed in the thread, what is the difference between waste and corruption. This definition is dotted in transcript. Is it corruption we can fight but nothing can be done about waste?

 

[MuddyOne]

Waste refers to shield loss, corruption with money lost. Courthouses, police stations, and FP help with both.

 

[alexman]

Originally posted by MuddyOne
The FP does seem to have a reduction under communism, despite what the description would lead you to believe.

You are right about that. My initial statement that the FP does not affect communism is not true. In reality the FP (and capital) city does not count against the optimal number of cities limit. So having a FP actually reduces corruption a bit. The percentage of the reduction depends on the number of cities in your empire and the number of optimal cities. I edited the initial post to reflect this. Thanks for pointing that out MuddyOne.

Also, lets settle this factory and marketplace debate once and for all. TheNiceOne is right. Even though on the screen it looks as though the city improvement reduced the corruption percentage because the number of red icons stay the same, that's not the case. I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread. So, contrary to what I initially thought, the corruption (and waste) percentage is not affected by marketplaces (and factories).

 

[Dracleath]

About the forbidden palace, am I correct in understanding that the FP essentially gives you an entirely new set of optimal cities to work with? For example, if the optimum number of cities is 4, does this mean that I can build the capital and 3 other cities, then build a forbidden palace on another continent, and build 3 cities around that, and all of them will use the low formula for corruption? And if I build the forbidden palace close to my original palace, does this effectively reduce the number of cities I get? (ex. I build a capital and forbidden palace one square apart - all cities are in the same order of closeness. Do 4 cities use the optimal formula or 8? Are intermediate cities between the capital and FP counted once for each capital or are the two capitals mutually exclusive?)

 

[alexman]

Dracleath, you are correct in your understanding of the way the FP works. It gives you a whole new set of cities, but any overlap with the capital is lost, except for the fact that the FP city itself does not count against the optimal number of cities limit. So in your example, only 4 cities will use the optimal formula, but of course not including the capital and FP. The last city using the part of the formula for N <= Nopt will be the 6th city.

In other words, build the FP far away from your capital! That's the most important use of great leaders, IMHO...

 

[TheNiceOne]

punkbass2000, I guess we're debating semantics, because we agree on the hard numbers, but look at it this way:

A factory in a corrupt city produces less shields than a uncorrupt (but otherwise identical) city. If the city has a base shield production of 50, a factory in an uncorrupt city adds 25 shields, while a factory in a 40%-corrupt city only adds 15 shields (to the 30 productive base shields).

So since the factory in the 40%-corrupt city produces 40% less additional shields, it is clearly affected by the corruption.

 

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
punkbass2000, I guess we're debating semantics, because we agree on the hard numbers,

I'll agree to this.

 

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Take your case II: without factory, you get 70.7% of the 41 shields you would get without corruption. Add the factory (and hydro effect), and an uncorrupted city would have given 82 shields. Your city only gives 58 shields, which is still exactly 70.7%. So, the factory is affected by corruption.

But your math is not what I observed. I didn't get 82 total shields when I had the factory+plant, I had 70. 58 were productive and 12 were wasted. Where did the other 12 go?

OTOH, the production jumped from 58 down to 29, exactly half and just what I would expect from getting rid of the 2 bonuses that increase un-wasted production by 50%.

However, I see your point. If the factory multiplied the total production, my percentage would remain the same and I would effectively get the same overall productive number of shields. However, the wasted shields would also have to multiply and they did not. Therefore, I'm sticking to the subtle & non-significant point that it affects only the unwasted shields.

 

[IDSmoker]

Originally posted by alexman
Edit for 1.21f: Courthouses, police stations, and WLTK (waste only) each increase Nopt by a fourth, for this city's corruption calculation.

So... with 1.21f: on a Huge Map with the Difficulty NOpt percentage set to 100% you would have:

Base NOpt=32
w/Courthouse, NOpt=40
and w/Police Station, NOpt=50
and w/WLTK, NOpt=62.5 (rounded down to 62)

Do I have this right?

What about the new Corruption slider added in 1.21f? Is this value applied to final product of the corruption/waste calculation? (or is it used in one of the previous steps of the calculation?)

 

[alexman]

Yes, you have it exactly right.

I don't know about the corruption slider. I would guess it reduces the corruption after all modifiers, but I don't feel like testing it!

 

[Arathorn]

I would be surprised if he has it right. Everything else in CivIII does not "stack" the bonuses as he was doing. Example, 32 gold with a market and a bank is only 64 (32*(1+.5+.5)), not 72 ((32*1.5)*1.5).

I would expect the limit is

32
40 with courthouse or WLTKD
48 with courthouse and police station or courthouse and WLTKD
56 with courthouse, police station, and WLKTD

I've not tested this at all, so I can't be sure, but this seems to me to be much more likely.

Arathorn

 

[alexman]

Arathorn, you are of course correct... It's been a while so I forgot. I should have looked at my earlier post:

Originally posted by alexman

Nopt = OptimalCities * (1 + N/4) * DifficultyPercent / 100 + Nciv

N = Number of corruption-reducing buildings in that city (courthouse and police station). Add one for waste calculations for a city in WLTK

 

[RufRydyr]

Wow. I couln't follow everything you said, but it sure helped a lot and you obviously put a lot of work into this.

Do foreign citizens affect waste/corruption?

Since a certain distance from capital/FB leaves a city with only 1 shield of production (many times), would it then make sense to dense build border cities? You wouldn't need aquaduct, temple, or anything. You'd just get the land and happy citizen points, right? Plop cities down with and set them to produce wealth.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

For anyone wanting to play without editor changes, there is a subtle trick that can lessen the overall affect of corruption: Play on a map one size larger than you prefer, but with 60% landmass. For example, play a large map with 60% instead of a standard map with normal land/water ratio. It's not exactly the same game, but very close. Thus it is as if you played a standard map with optimal cities set to 24.

As a bonus, this also helps when playing a larger map than your computer can reasonably handle. I found this because I wanted 12 civs but not the speed of a standard map.

 

[royfurr]

Originally posted by Crazy Jerome
For anyone wanting to play without editor changes, there is a subtle trick that can lessen the overall affect of corruption: Play on a map one size larger than you prefer, but with 60% landmass. For example, play a large map with 60% instead of a standard map with normal land/water ratio. It's not exactly the same game, but very close. Thus it is as if you played a standard map with optimal cities set to 24.

As a bonus, this also helps when playing a larger map than your computer can reasonably handle. I found this because I wanted 12 civs but not the speed of a standard map.

VERY Clever idea, Crazy Jerome! I think I will try this, with at the same time editing up the cities limit- the effect on speed should be good, in the endgame. Now I wonder how this effects Strategic resources distrubition??

 

[chiefpaco]

I really like your corruption calculator, alexman, but wondered if you ever update it, could you change a couple little things?

The enter key seems to close the utility when it starts up and then later just follows the focus. Could you always make it "Calculate"?

Could you add a minimize button? Sometimes I like to keep it open but get distracted by something else.

The "Set Defaults" screen. Can you make it remember the last settings I chose? I often just want to change 1 thing at a time.

Thanks. Also 1 suggestion. Why not also add it to the "Utilities" subforum?