Does Stalin really belong in the game?

[a4phantom]

A bit more brutal than that, I might say. On the other hand, the costs of British industrialization were paid for by foreign populations who experienced a brutality not unlike that felt in the Ukrainian famine or other Stalinist atrocities on the path to industrialization.

The British peasantry suffered for it too. And I wasn't trying to say it was equal, just that Stalin's high murder rate is partially attributable to things that killed lots of people in other countries, even democracies, as well.

Obviously the man was still a monster. A big one.

 

[frekk]

The British peasantry suffered for it too.

True. The Enclosures and the Highland Clearances were a nasty bit of business.

 

[a4phantom]

True. The Enclosures and the Highland Clearances were a nasty bit of business.

That's what I was thinking of but I don't remember the details so I didn't want to risk being specific enough to be proven wrong

 

[ICNP]

Lets remove all the leaders from the game. We can play as an omnipotent God, like Black & White *chuckle*

God:
Traits: Omnipotent/Who cares I'm Omnipotent!
Favorite Civic: Theocracy

But then you have to worry about all those poor people who died when God brought the plagues to the Egytians

 

[a4phantom]

God:
Traits: Omnipotent/Who cares I'm Omnipotent!
Favorite Civic: Theocracy

But then you have to worry about all those poor people who died when God brought the plagues to the Egytians

Only if you're playing as the Egyptians.

 

[jsweeney]

Sure, Stalin wasn't the nicest guy, but that doesn't mean we should exclude him as a great world leader. Killing people ain't nice, but he made the USSR a threat to the world. We need people like Stalin in these games along with the good guys because, want to or not, they made today what it is today.
"1 death is a tragedy. 1,000,000 is a statistic"

 

[Sian]

just look at iraq ... there dies who knows how many civilians and nobody cares ... but every time a single US soldier dies its the end of the world

 

[a4phantom]

Sure, Stalin wasn't the nicest guy, but that doesn't mean we should exclude him as a great world leader. Killing people ain't nice, but he made the USSR a threat to the world. We need people like Stalin in these games along with the good guys because, want to or not, they made today what it is today.
"1 death is a tragedy. 1,000,000 is a statistic"

Stalin also taught us that "Quantity is its own quality," a theory that all AI armies are clearly based on.

 

[Tronicoz]

ofc he do dont be silly. he fits in good, he did good stuff in a very bad way. hitler also deserves a spot, because he were like all historical might crazy leaders.

 

[JujuLautre]

(10chars)

 

[whitelaughter]

Okay -

If you want to remove Stalin, the obvious problem/opportunity is to replace him with other Russian leaders. Who do you want? Peter and Catherine are already done. I assume not Ivan the Terrible, that would sort of defeat the purpose.

Secondly, given Stalin's already coded in, rather than remove him, how about making him the first AI-only leader, and also have Hitler, Musso, Franco, Tojo etc as AI-only and give bonus points for stamping out one of these evil dictators? After all, Churchill and Roosevelt are famous for taking down Hitler - it'd be a cool thing to have done. Wouldn't you enjoy vapourizing dear Adolf?

 

[Munch]

Okay -

If you want to remove Stalin, the obvious problem/opportunity is to replace him with other Russian leaders. Who do you want? Peter and Catherine are already done. I assume not Ivan the Terrible, that would sort of defeat the purpose.

Secondly, given Stalin's already coded in, rather than remove him, how about making him the first AI-only leader, and also have Hitler, Musso, Franco, Tojo etc as AI-only and give bonus points for stamping out one of these evil dictators? After all, Churchill and Roosevelt are famous for taking down Hitler - it'd be a cool thing to have done. Wouldn't you enjoy vapourizing dear Adolf?

If you want to replace Stalin, just choose another modern era Russian leader, Lenin, Gorbachev, Putin, ... but that doesn't really solve anything. Stalin (similarly your alternate evil quadrilogy of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Tojo) is only a problem in the game because of his recent life. I doubt many complain about Isabella's connection to the inquisition, for example. Give it a couple of hundred years and the portayal of Stalin, Hitler etc will stop being taboo.

As for making the 'evil ones' AI-only and giving the player a bonus for smashing them? That would ruin the game.

 

[whitelaughter]

Give it a couple of hundred years and the portrayal of Stalin, Hitler etc will stop being taboo.

How so? Would Vlad "The Impaler" Dracula go through unchallenged? And while Isabella slips through, Torquemada wouldn't.

 

[whitelaughter]

As for making the 'evil ones' AI-only and giving the player a bonus for smashing them? That would ruin the game.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Happily Aimless]

you know I never thought this thread would get so damn long

 

[6K Man]

No doubt this has already been said, but virtually every leader in Civ4 is a heinous villain to some group or groups. Hitler stands out because he has better publicists. Thus, he's left out of the game in order to avoid offending large numbers of people. It's not as much of a problem if small numbers of people are (justifiably) offended by the inclusion of Stalin, Genghis, Mao, Victoria, Isabella, Montezuma, Napoleon, etc, etc...

 

[Munch]

No doubt this has already been said, but virtually every leader in Civ4 is a heinous villain to some group or groups. Hitler stands out because he has better publicists. Thus, he's left out of the game in order to avoid offending large numbers of people. It's not as much of a problem if small numbers of people are (justifiably) offended by the inclusion of Stalin, Genghis, Mao, Victoria, Isabella, Montezuma, Napoleon, etc, etc...

Not to mention the issue of portrayal of Nazism/Hitler in Germany.

How so? Would Vlad "The Impaler" Dracula go through unchallenged? And while Isabella slips through, Torquemada wouldn't.

Dracula may very well go through unchallenged, he might even be fun to play as. I maintain that it's more likely for an 'evil' leader of the distant past to be put into the game than it is for Hitler etc; I think time heals sensitivities like this. As for whether he was an important enough figure in world history, that isn't for me to decide. The controversial leaders of the 20th century however are - at least at present - considered largely influential and shaped the world we live in today, to a greater extent perhaps than the influence of Genghis Khan is felt today. Over time I am sure it will become easier to portray Hitler in Germany and so on, as people become less sensitive to the memory of his actions.

Care to elaborate?

First of all I don't think the game should reward you for waging war against leaders who were historically the bad guys. The game should be impartial in that respect and allow you to play whichever leader you feel like in whichever was you want. If I was banned from playing as 'evil-doers' such as Stalin, and prompted to destroy particular AI players simply because of their appearance (and historical connection - which of course is independent of their behaviour in any one particular game), I would not have enjoyed this game as much as I have. It does not need restrictions like that.

 

[6K Man]

FWIW, Stalin has never once backstabbed me in BtS. Usually he's the last AI to be pleased/friendly with me, by the time all others hate me for DOWing their friends or trading with the wrong people. He's been my voluntary vassal at least twice, and joined in at least a half dozen wars with me over the course of several games.

So lay off the guy, he's alright in my books.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Hitler is unique for 2 reasons
1. The game couldn't be sold in Germany if he was included
2. Best documented and planned genocide in history

Stalin was pretty good at keeping to agreements he made as the Greek Communists found out when he abandoned them after the war because he had agreed that Greece was in the Western sphere of influence. He also withdrew Soviet troops from Austria as agreed

Most of the leaders were pretty nasty people. Julius Caesar was responsible for the death of over a million Gauls with a similar number enslaved

 

[Tommy1234567890]

Leaders of ALL nations were cruel in their times and they must be included in this game only beacuse they had an impact on world history, and led thier people to greatness.
Even the ones we call *good* leaders had SOME bad customs

George Washington had slaves
Churchill agreed to the mass bombing of INOCENT German homes, claiming they were *strategic* targets
Alexander the Great...well kinda obvious
Stalin he probably was THE biggest monster, much much bigger than Adolf Hitler but this westernized view of good vs evil has personified him as much better than in reality