Does Stalin really belong in the game?

[Roller123]

We don't learn much about the Russian atrocities in World War II in school.

You should pay more attention to school, and less to some nonsense.

 

[Antilogic]

A better idea may be to do some self-research to see what school isn't telling you. As it turns out, the condensed semester-version isn't always the complete truth with all the nitty-gritty detail.

 

[Roller123]

Yeah, thats unfortunately also true. But school teaches information gathering and to differentiate between facts and false info, which this thread utterly fails at. Common, Stalin killed BLACKS? Must be true, since Russia doesnt have any, he killed 'em all. Neither does Germany, Hitler must have killed all the blacks too. Which makes Hitler equal Stalin. They both killed blacks in their countries 'till the last man.

 

[Comrade Alex]

Stalin imprisoned high ranking Jews in Eastern European Communist Parties after the war, but this isn't exactly comparable to the Holocaust.

Interestingly, Churchill's wartime government was at least indirectly responsible for the deaths of 4 million in Bengal during 1943, without any crop failures.

Then again, that was mostly down to horsehockey British Colonial management, screwing everything up.

 

[Agent327]

Stalin was a cruel leader, who was as cruel, if not more, than Hitler. Remember that around 6 million innocent people were killed (mainly Jews) in Nazi Germany. And that was a cruel, horrible atrocity. Don't get me wrong.

But did you know that 18 MILLION innocent people died in Russia under Stalin? (he killed Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, blacks, and people that opposed the government). We don't learn much about the Russian atrocities in World War II in school. This is because the victors write the history. The Russians won.

I am not trying to imply that the Germans were good and the Russians were evil, I'm trying to imply they both were. Heck, even the United States did a few bad things (although not nearly as bad as what Germany and Russia did).

For example, we put Japanese Americans in relocation camps.

Anyway, I'm getting a little off subject. The point I'm trying to make is, should Stalin really be in the game? Someone that is largely responsible for the deaths of 18 million people? There are so many other great Russian rulers, so why him?

What do you think?

A bit elaborate, but to give a simple answer: if Mao is in, so can Stalin be (and Hitler, for that matter, as they were all historic national leaders).

Also, Genghis Khan and Napoleon are already in - and they were no pussycats. (In fact, any leader entering his nation into a major war is ultimately responsible for the death of many men - and women and children too, as Comrade Alex just pointed out.)

 

[Two_Sandals]

I think you have to have stalin in the game, he probaly one of the most important people of the last 100 years, don't mistake that as me saying that i approve of what he did, but rather that the influence he's had on the world is too important to be left out, i would also extend that to hitler. However i would understand that german or russian people might not like having their countries being repersented by them, as i would probaly not enjoy having bush in the game. I think the big reason these people stand out so much and offend people is because they are still recent, and being only 1 -2 generations past isn't enought time. But i imagine these two will be givens in Civ XXXXVI.

This is a reply to the original topic, so if its not in step with the current thread discussion thats why.

 

[W|M]

Hitler can't be in the game for obvious reasons; he is the current personification of evil.

Putting him in the game would lower sales because of 1. the Jewish factor and 2. the German factor.

Also, the slav and communist factor-Hitler was racist to them too

 

[Lone Wolf]

How can you be racist against Communists?

 

[Handel]

This thread makes no sense. The only thing which makes less sense is comparing Hitler to Stalin. He didnt exterminate ethnic groups, unlike germans with Holocaust, americans with their black slaves problem, or japanese who perceived chinese as little more than vegetables. Also the OP is completely ignorant. *shakes head* Stalin killed jews? Stalin was the key figure in establishing postwar Israel.

You are completely ignorant.
Staline deliberately exterminated between 4,5 and 8 millinons of ukraineans.
AND Stalin exterminated lots of civilian germans which were enslaved AFTER the end of WWII and were sent to die in siberian labor camps. Very few germans survived this. And I again repeat - those were civilians which was simply taken for no reason AFTER the war.
Actually he killed much more people then Hitler.

But what esle can we expect from brainwashed russians dreaming about the "great empire"...

 

[Roller123]

You are completely ignorant.
Staline deliberately exterminated between 4,5 and 8 millinons of ukraineans.
AND Stalin exterminated lots of civilian germans which were enslaved AFTER the end of WWII and were sent to die in siberian labor camps. Very few germans survived this. And I again repeat - those were civilians which was simply taken for no reason AFTER the war.
Actually he killed much more people then Hitler.

But what esle can we expect from brainwashed russians dreaming about the "great empire"...

Sending people to work to help rebuild things they destroyed is neither exterminating a race, nor a crime, nor is unusual in history. Not that Stalin did that, anyway, thats your unfounded claim. He did use captured soldiers as labour force though. Germans should not have let Hitler begin a total war in the first place.

Calling me a "russian great empire dreamer" because i have some clue about history, this doesnt even make sense. Not everyone who knows history is a communist. Stalin wasnt a hero, but he is not really better or worse than most other leaders included in the game.

And the famine thing, it was in all the USSR, a result of a bad planning, many people died. Among them were ukrainians too, yes. Why you say that everyone who died was an ukrainian and, even better, was purposely "exterminated", a thing, Stalin neither had aa reason, nor gain to do so, i have no idea. Ignorance? Inferiority complex? The smaller the nation the greater usually their ego is.

Actually he killed much more people then Hitler.

Another ridiculous claim with no backup whatsoever. I would be very interested to see how creative you will be to bend this one right. Probably adding another zero to your numbers. It sure works.

 

[Handel]

Yeah... whatever... never argue with a brainwashed commy fanatic.

 

[Point13]

Yeah... whatever... never argue with a brainwashed commy fanatic.

Hell don't the huge majority of Russians view Stalin as somebody who negatively affected the Soviet empire/economy?

Plus, why are we still beating this topic into the ground? It was created in May.

 

[Civ Person]

who cares what the leaders did. it is apart of history. history is not, quess what, nice and pretty. ever country has a dark mark, plus this is a game

 

[Supr49er]

Welcome to the Forums Two_Sandals.

 

[Ajidica]

Stalin may have been a monster, but he is credited with saving the Soviet Union. Despite murdering many people, he did do some beneficial things for his country. Besides, if you dont like stalin, mod him out of the game.

 

[Handel]

For the information of brainwashed russians and the ignorant non-russians:
BTW - for the ingnorancy of the non-russian the main fault is of the leftist mainstream media like the Pulitzer laureate Walter Duranty who got the Pulitzer for his fake pro-Stalin articles denying the existance of so called "Golodomor" (which means Famine-Plague).
For several months in 1932-1933 years Stalin killed about 35 milions - yes 35,000,000 people - starving them to death! And this is from 145,000,000 total population of the Soviet Union at this time. At the same time about 300,000 people were sentenced to death or at 10 and more years at Sibirian slave labor camps for "stealing" from their own food - yup! Exactly this - sentenced to death because they ate they own food instead giving it to the bolsheviks.
About 7,000,000 from the starved to death were Ukrainean, most of the other were from the other non-russian peoples living in the boundaries of the Soviet Union.
BTW - this is not because they weren't russians - this was because most of the russians were already members of the communist's "kolkoz"; the starved people were free peasants and the main intention of Stalin was to exterminate the free peasantry.
As for the Staling "saving" the Soviet Union during the war - the Red Army defeated Hitler not because of Stalin, but in spite of Stalin.

As for if I like stalin or not - I don't care neither for Stalin nor for brainwashed russians. Luckily I don't live there and don't intend to live there.

But I say if Stalin deserved his place as "great leader" then why Hitler is missing?

For those of you which want to learn something new here is a link with photos from those days:
http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php

 

[jsweeney]

[/QUOTE]Another ridiculous claim with no backup whatsoever. I would be very interested to see how creative you will be to bend this one right. Probably adding another zero to your numbers. It sure works.[/QUOTE]

Actually he killed like around 20-30 million people. Hitler killed around 12 million. Math helps huh?

 

[Ajidica]

Lets trust Firaxis more making a PC choice. They didnt even include Hitler in a WWII scenario. Firaxis tries to be as PC as possible. Besides, if you dont like Stalin that much, mod him out of the game. If you dont know how, I can quick do it and you never have to see him again.

'As for the Staling "saving" the Soviet Union during the war - the Red Army defeated Hitler not because of Stalin, but in spite of Stalin' I actualy have a book that says it somehwere by a couple military historians. Stalin may have been an idiot for trying to command his armies by himself, but he learned. If it were not for the fact he often refused to submit and his excellent Propaganda Corps, the Red Army would have lost as Moscow, and in turn, lost the war. Once again, I have made my point, if you dont like him, mod him out.

 

[Pluvo241]

Well, Stalin was in the original Civilization. For that reason alone I think we could make a case for the inclusion of his name and "likeness" into the game. This is just a strategy game. Not a simulation. The values attached to every item in the game reflects the needs of the game itself, not the dictates of history. I think the phrase "loosely based" would fit here. The Stalin of the game isn't the Stalin of history. His inclusion does not offend me, just as the inclusion or exclusion of any other element of the game fails to offend me. I take the game as a whole and I judge it to be addictive and entertaining. I take no social commentary from my play sessions. If we're going to be concerned about the "value judgements" made by the game designers, then we might want to look at the pillaging, the slavery, and the violence inherent in having to overpower most or all of our neighbors to "win!"

 

[BakingTheArt]

So, there are people hear arguing in favor of censorship?

Is civfanatics full of white, >60 year old politicians?