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[Seven05]

I wouldn't have the faintest idea how to even start doing this, but some of the other modders might.

Yeah, I figured as much after reading your other posts which is why I offerd an alternative idea

Thats a pretty clever solution, and a nice way to cap the number of slaves that could be settled in a particular city. Can buildings have effects that only function under a particular civic? So, the slave pen 1 building would give say +1 food, +1 hammer, +1 unhealth, +2 unhappy, and +1 unhappy with slavery civic.
And we could similarly create a very cheap Serf Quarters building that had no base effect, but provided +1 hammer to serfs under the serfdom civic and +2 gold to Lords under the serfdom civic.

Thanks for the suggestions! Now, if only the coders weren't AWOL.....

Unofrtunately I always read the forums here while I'm bored at work waiting for something to do, I'll have to actually look and see if Kael modified the civics in FfH to affect yields and commerce types based on civics, I think he did but I'm not possitive. If not you should be able to bend the rules a little more using additional free specialist types.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Just a question. If we had such a complex system of using Python to add a bilding into a city, just so it could add free specialists, do you think the AI would be able to handle it? I meen, I can barely understand it. Would the recognise that activating that join comand does all that, and would it recognise that the purpose of that action is to get free specialists?
I seriusely doubt it. But I think we should wait for the coders and skip to another idea of mine:

Marks of chaos.

Now we all know how hard it is to get the blessing of a single chaos god. But in this mod, all sorcerers can actualy get the blessings of all chaos gods.

Now I don't know about medieval WH lore, but in 40K, only about 3-4 people managed to get the marks of all chaos gods and they were on primarch level.

Also, when you think about it, some marks are just naturaly incompatable:
Nurgle - Tzench (Despare - Hope/Ambition),
Tzentch - Khorne (Sorcery / Brute force (hates sorcery)),
Khorne - Slanesh (Brute force - Hedonistic self indaulgence (Khorne despises it)),
Slanesh - Nurgle (Hedonistic self indaulgence / phisical perfection - Rot),

I can't see any of these combinations realy working considering the chaos gods and their personalities.


I think that instead, the marks of chaos the chaos gods should be unbuyable promotions.
And the only way to get them would be from chaos temples.
Each of the 4 temples (Tzentch, Nurgle, Khorn and Slanesh) should give free marks of the appropriate god to any sorcerer unit spawned in the city.
There should also be one or more promotions avalable with each mark to allow further entry into the spheres of the chaos gods.
So we would have something like:
Mark of Tzench (basic spells) -> Boon of Tzench (Advanced Spells) -> Chosen of Tzench (needs to be archmage, the most powerfull spells of Tzench)

Each of the steps would also give the caster unique effects depending on the chaos god in question. This would reflect the long path one has to take to acheave true power in sorcery mush better than what we have here. It would also make both players and the AI make more use of the other spheres of magic avalable to the Chaos factions. Many of them have The lore of fire, shadows and so on, and this would make these more enticing for players as they could not just get entangled with a chaos undivided mage.

And the best part is, this can be done via XML only. No need for coding. And the AI would understand it perfectly.
What do you think about it?

 

[Ahriman]

I think the AI would be able to sacrifice great people to build slave pens 1, slave pens 2, slave pens 3 buildings, though it wouldn't place them intelligently.

I agree that I don't particularly like how chaos magic spells are assigned at the moment. Its lame that you (and the AI) can get Chaos Sorcerors at Corruption of Chaos tech, but can't actually give them any spells until you research one of the later (and more expensive) chaos magics techs.

We thought about tying the spells to the Temples, but that doesn't always work particularly well. If you build a spellcaster unit before building a temple, you're missing out on spells. And you're encouraged to build all your sorcery units in a Tzeentch city, since that gives bonus xp to spellcasters atm. Plus, the AI might not build the temples.
And I don't think you can have units with OR requirements for buildings; so you can't have the Chaos Sorceror require a temple of Tzeentch OR a Temple of Nurgle OR a Temple of Nurgle, so you can't require that one of
You'd have to split the sorcerors into separate mage types for each god (like the College wizards are at present).

I think the best solution would be a mixture, as follows:
Eliminate the chaos magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions.
Have Tzeentch Magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions, Slaanesh Magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions, Nurgle Magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions, and a Mark of Khorne promotion.

XYZ Magic level 2 requires Channeling 2 promotion and XYZ level 1 promotion, and similarly for level 3.

Each level of magic allows 2 spells, basically as current (though IIRC there are no level 1 Slaanesh spells in the mod?).

The level 1 magic requires the Corruption of Chaos tech. the level 2 and 3 magics require the appropriate chaos God tech - though you only get channel 3 from the Exalted Sorceror which requires the Chaos Incursion tech.

The magic promotions are all purchasable promotions, BUT you also get the level 1 promotion free from building the unit in a city with the appropriate temple. The promotions can only go to Adept class units.

Also, the Temple of Khorne gives the Mark of Khorne promotion to all combat units built in it (not just adept-class), which gives a +5% strength bonus and allows the burning blood spell.

Then, give the Chaos Sorceror and Exalted Sorceror a free promotion again, and remove the ingrained chaos magic promotions. Make the Chaos Sorceror directly buildable as well, so it doesn't have to be upgraded from a warlock.

So, a Sorceror *can* advance in the favor of multiple gods, but it takes a lot of promotions to do so.

To have all the chaos spells requires 9 promotions - 3 from each magical god. You can get 1 free from a Temple, and 2 free from Sorceror and Exalted Sorceror upgrades, so you'd have to spend 6 to get all the rest.

Whereas at the moment you can get them all by spending just 3 promotions; buying each of the Mark promotions and the chaos magic promotion is built-in.

So you can get the casters without the temples, but it is more efficient (saves you a promotion) to build a temple first. And you can still have a mage that knows magic from 2 chaos gods, but it takes a lot more difficulty to do so (and stops you getting combat promotions, which enhance spell damage and effects).

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I think the AI would be able to sacrifice great people to build slave pens 1, slave pens 2, slave pens 3 buildings, though it wouldn't place them intelligently.

My fear exacly.

We thought about tying the spells to the Temples, but that doesn't always work particularly well. If you build a spellcaster unit before building a temple, you're missing out on spells. And you're encouraged to build all your sorcery units in a Tzeentch city, since that gives bonus xp to spellcasters atm. Plus, the AI might not build the temples.

Just one more reason to make it my way. I can't imagine sorcerers born and raised in the service of Tzeentch turning to Khorne.
Just one more reason to make it my way. It would encorage the AI to use them.

And I don't think you can have units with OR requirements for buildings; so you can't have the Chaos Sorceror require a temple of Tzeentch OR a Temple of Nurgle OR a Temple of Nurgle, so you can't require that one of
You'd have to split the sorcerors into separate mage types for each god (like the College wizards are at present).

Are you sure about that? I will have to check on that, I am prety sure you could use a building class rather than a building.

I think the best solution would be a mixture, as follows:
Eliminate the chaos magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions.
Have Tzeentch Magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions, Slaanesh Magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions, Nurgle Magic 1, 2 and 3 promotions, and a Mark of Khorne promotion.

XYZ Magic level 2 requires Channeling 2 promotion and XYZ level 1 promotion, and similarly for level 3.

Each level of magic allows 2 spells, basically as current (though IIRC there are no level 1 Slaanesh spells in the mod?).

The level 1 magic requires the Corruption of Chaos tech. the level 2 and 3 magics require the appropriate chaos God tech - though you only get channel 3 from the Exalted Sorceror which requires the Chaos Incursion tech.

The magic promotions are all purchasable promotions, BUT you also get the level 1 promotion free from building the unit in a city with the appropriate temple. The promotions can only go to Adept class units.

Also, the Temple of Khorne gives the Mark of Khorne promotion to all combat units built in it (not just adept-class), which gives a +5% strength bonus and allows the burning blood spell.

Then, give the Chaos Sorceror and Exalted Sorceror a free promotion again, and remove the ingrained chaos magic promotions. Make the Chaos Sorceror directly buildable as well, so it doesn't have to be upgraded from a warlock.

So, a Sorceror *can* advance in the favor of multiple gods, but it takes a lot of promotions to do so.

To have all the chaos spells requires 9 promotions - 3 from each magical god. You can get 1 free from a Temple, and 2 free from Sorceror and Exalted Sorceror upgrades, so you'd have to spend 6 to get all the rest.

Whereas at the moment you can get them all by spending just 3 promotions; buying each of the Mark promotions and the chaos magic promotion is built-in.

So you can get the casters without the temples, but it is more efficient (saves you a promotion) to build a temple first. And you can still have a mage that knows magic from 2 chaos gods, but it takes a lot more difficulty to do so (and stops you getting combat promotions, which enhance spell damage and effects).

I mostly agree with your solution, mostly.
I think you are right, what do slaanesh spells do at the moment? They should be something like self bufs and ways to convert/weaken enemies. Maybe have a spell that removes promotions like fearles.

Just one more thing I noticed, the chaos have real problems fighting monsters that cause fear. Most races can't handle an early dragon spawn, but the chaos can barely handle a late game dragon spawn.
I sugjest making the jugernaught of khorne fearless.

PS. I used Underline and Italic text to higlight what part of the quote I was replying to. Maybe I should switch to color coding next time?

 

[Seven05]

I think the AI would be able to sacrifice great people to build slave pens 1, slave pens 2, slave pens 3 buildings, though it wouldn't place them intelligently.

That would depend entirely on your criteria for what makes it an intelligent decision. It would never be as well thought out as if placed by a human player but you could easily prevent them from putting one in every city or in cities that are too small (or too big) or based on production or food output. You just need precise rules for when building the slave pen would be appropriate based on the data that will be available to the AI. So telling it something like- "only build slave pens in cities of at least size 5 and less than 2 hammers per population point" would work. This could also be defined per 'level' of the building assuming that you use the FfH 'spell' mechanic for building them. Having the AI pull slaves into their cities ASAP is also easily achieved by lying to the AI and giving the slaves one of the GP UnitAIs.

 

[Ahriman]

Are you sure about that? I will have to check on that, I am prety sure you could use a building class rather than a building.

We tried to get it to work for missionaries; so a Chaos cultist would require a Temple of Khorne OR Temple of Slaanesh OR .... etc.
But didn't seem to work, so we just made it require Corruption religion and Corruption state religion and Corruption tech.

They should be something like self bufs and ways to convert/weaken enemies. Maybe have a spell that removes promotions like fearles.

I think all the current spells come from particular spells from the Tabletop game, PL does all the spells - its one of his preferred things. Spells that remove promotions tend to be near useless, because they're so massively situational, and will almost never help against the AI. But we could probably come up with a couple more spells.


Fear is totally messed up at the moment. Its far too strong, and its poorly implemented. It was a placeholder way of getting around the old fear, which was a direct copy from FFH, but was problematic because you could hardly ever successfully attack a unit with fear.
I had a long argument about it, but I think its in the private team forum.
Once fear gets changed so that you can actually effectively attack units that have fear promotions, chaos won't be at any particular disadvantage (I assume you mean they have disadvantages because of their relative lack of good defensive units, and because you can only really kill a dragon atm when it attacks you).

* * *

My design for fear/terror would be:
Cause fear gives a 15% strength bonus in combat vs any units not immune to fear. (The bonus only happens in combat; so only the unit with the fear promotion ever gets the bonus - the current implementation means a single fear unit gives the combat bonus to the entire rest of its stack).
Terror: Unit with terror promotion scatters defenders when it attacks successfully. Any unit not immune to fear has a flat 30% chance of being too scared to attack a unit with the terror promotion.

Fear and terror should limited to very small numbers of units; only those with actual supernatural fear abilities, not just anything that is big and nasty and can kill you (which is almost every unit). So Dryads, Cold Ones, etc. would lose fear; mostly it will just be dragons, some scary undead and some things with death magic.

 

[kittycata1977]

Hi - please help me with a big problem:

I have a game crash (using XP) at end of turn when i'm playing high elves - it bothers me to start from the beginning because i'm doin' so well. The facts are:
- if i load a saved game 2 or 5 or 10 turns ago, even know at that time i was able to get to the next turn, now it gives me the same crash !!!!
- how do i turn python erros show on because i cannot find any civilizationIV.ini or other ini that have the text specified in the first post
- in this game that crashes i did something in the past: it crashed at some point and i remove the MARSH SINK event (u have an error with that also at loading the mod) and this solved the problem
- how can i post here my saved game

PLEASE help me i want to play further!!!

Also - is the lothern guard usable in this version of the game or is it just in civilopedia ?

10x in advance.
Catalin.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Hi guys

Im back from japan its nice to see this forum still alive

ive just had a quick skim of the last few pages and i must say im very impressed with some of the ideas posted, particularly the slave pens idea. i think i know how id implement it, but ill need to read it through again properly.

Regarding chaos magic, also very good points. i love the idea of different marks being incompatable and we could probably accomplish this through simple python coding. also slaanesh magic isnt really properly finished due to lack of inspiration on my behalf.

regarding the suiddocks the only 2 things i am adament about keeping for it are the ability to work the 3rd ring and the hammers from the sea. i actually think the giving trade to all cities is a bug from when i coded it, it should only benefit the city it is in. id like to use the FfH Crime guage for more stuff in the mod and i think the suiddocks should increase crime somewhat.

----------------------

@ bread smith: what language are you running your game one? warhammer and most other mods are only compattable with english. try changing the game language to english (there is a thread in this forum dedicated to this same issue i believe)

----------------------

regarding the next version, tomorrow i will go back over most of the code and see what still needs doing as well as take a look at the slave pens idea and chaos magic. someone asked about skaven and they are pretty much finished being designed and we just need to get around to coding them now. probably not the next version.

i will release this asap as i start back at uni on the 23rd this month ( ) but after that im going to focus on converting the entire mod to the latest version of FfH2: Fall Further. this will help us immensly in a few major ways:
-ill get to finally tidy up the code
-we will get a LOT of new very important tags which will make my life that much easyer
-new features that we have had to reject due to coding impossibility will finally be possible
-much more that my tired brain cant process properly atm

but the biggest drawback is it will take a loooong time and a lot of work. (the only way i know to do this is to rebuild the entire mod from scratch using the FfH2: Fall Further code as a base...)

--------------------

@ Catalin: its interesting that reloading a pervious save results in the same crash. what map are you plaing? is it a random map or a scenario? has this happened in any other games or just this one high elf game?

the file you need to look for to turn on python errors is actually called "_Civ4Config" in the BTS file. the .ini thing is confusing. sorry

what exactly did you do in the code when you removed the MARSH_SINK event? it is possible this ctd was caused by something you changed.

also, i will check out the Lothern seaguard tomorrow. they should be buildable but its may be bugged.

-----------------------

Id just like to say a huge thanks to everyone for the continued feedback and bug hunting, and once more to apologise on the slow progression the mod has taken lately. hopefully i will have more time for a while to work on this.

 

[Ahriman]

I don't think the various chaos gods need to be *completely* exclusive.
If you want to do it that way, then you should just separate the chaos sorcerers into separate branches like the College and Elemental mages, so there are Nurgle Mages and Nurgle Archmages, Tzeentch Mages and Tzeentch Archmages, etc.
But that's not my preferred solution.

We can still keep the current combined sorcerers, but make it more difficult to advance in the favor of multiple gods by requiring each level to take a separate promotion, and by splitting each magic type into three separate promotions (and removing the chaos magic promotons).
I really do think we should move away to having the spells powered by Chaos Magic level X and a Mark of Chaos God Y. Needing 2 promotions to cast 1 spell is irritating and confusing.

The slave pens idea would be implemented basically the same as the Altar of the Luonnotar in FFH. So, Slave Pens 1 gives +1 hammer, +1 food, +1 unhealth, +2 unhappy, +1 happy with slavery civic, +1 health with sewerse. Slave Pens 2 replaces and obsoletes Slave Pens 1, and gives +2 hammers, +2 food, +2 unealth, +4 unhappy, +2 happy with slavery civic, +2 health with sewers. Similarly for Slave Pens 3. I'd cap it at three slaves per city.

I would go with Seven's ideas of telling the AI that slaves are great people that can be sacrificed to build the various slave pens buildings. If you can code in a few extra things for restricting when do add them (ie don't add if city is at happiness cap).
But changing slaves is a low priority.

I'm fine with 3rd ring and water hammers from the Suidocks.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I am glad you people like my ideas.
There are more where these came from.

If you ever need an extra...

 

[Ahriman]

I am glad you people like my ideas.

That does put you in an exclusive group

Feel free to post whatever, though our design ability exceeds our implementation ability at the moment.

 

[kittycata1977]

i modified the file "C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Warhammer\Assets\XML\Events\CIV4EventTriggerInfos.xml"

i removed from:
<EventTriggerInfo>
<Type>EVENTTRIGGER_MARSHSINKHOLE</Type>
.... until </EventTriggerInfo>

in the other 2 files from the "events" folder i did not find any entry so i guessed that's why is the error.

the game was crushing at end of turn in the beginning of the game (warhammer 1.5 huge map - NOT random) and i guessed if from this - after i removed it did not crash anymore but i had the problem with crashing when the game was very advanced - and even if i took from saved game before it still crashed - anyway i started over cu the original file with "marshsink ..." and it seems that is ok now.

This crashing with "marsh sink..." happened before 2-3 time always when i played Empire on the preset map, at the beginning of the game.

If it happens again i will keep the saved game and give it to u to see what's happening.

10x anyway.

Catalin.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

after i removed it did not crash anymore but i had the problem with crashing when the game was very advanced - and even if i took from saved game before it still crashed

it seems that the removal of that event entry caused the crashes you reported earlyer. regarding the late game crashes, i am also experiencing these but cannot find any real cause. often if it crashes like this i load the last auto save and change what i was doing in that turn, this seems to fix that particular crash. the Marsh sink errors are not game breaking but will be fixed in the next upload

 

[kittycata1977]

I do the same
10x again and i want u to know u are all doin' a formidable job with this mod - i like playin it

Cata

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

im glad your enjoying the mod so far Cata

 

[kittycata1977]

Hello again - if u don't mind, i like to report what (i think) is a bug:
- when u move a spy into an enemy city, and that city also have a worker in it, it captures the worker and moves all the player troops out of the city - i don't know if it happens even know u don't have a worker... and for sure spies can capture workers anywere.
- also - dwarwen death roller have no promotions available
- AI civs don't give the slightest shhh about fishing technology - even know they have cities near water with fish, clam, crab - i reach the point of literature and exchanging technologies with ai civs with 3-4 cities and good score they did not have fishing
- keeps and castles all the way in ai civs - if know as i see in this patch they don't give trade bonus anymore
- more of a question: when i capture a city with a world wonder in it that i am not able to build, that wonder dissapears (eg: Magic Orders), is normal ?

10x in advance
Catalin.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

interesting observation on the spies, ill look into that thanks.

death rollers and steam tanks currently do not have any promotions because of their unit type. this will change in the future.

Ill change the ai waiting of the fishing tech to see if that helps the issue... i never noticed this before thanks

Keeps and Castles are a real pain in the arse... they were fixed for some time and then the ai decided to spam them again ill look into it again.

If you capture a city with a wonder you cant normally build it is supposed to be destroyed. this is to prevent being able to build certain UUs (like the Woodelven spellsinger from the Tower of the eternal wood)

thanks again

 

[mathurian]

it seems that the removal of that event entry caused the crashes you reported earlyer. regarding the late game crashes, i am also experiencing these but cannot find any real cause. often if it crashes like this i load the last auto save and change what i was doing in that turn, this seems to fix that particular crash. the Marsh sink errors are not game breaking but will be fixed in the next upload

I am looking forward to the next version as well! I just started playing Civ again and am spending most of my time on the Civ 3 Warhammer Mod ATM. I tried yours out a little, but I figured I wanted to wrap up the Civ 3 one first (probably another couple weeks or so till I decide to move on), and that way I'll get to wait another iteration or two of yours (and thus presumably get a more polished product)vbefore I dive in.

 

[Ahriman]

I still think the best short-term fix for castles/watchtowers is to just disable them. They hurt the game way more than they add.

FFH seems to have some AI code for them set up reasonably intelligently though, the AI typically builds 1 per city.

I've definitely seen my units get kicked out of a city, didn't realize it was from a spy but thats perfectly plausible. It also kills any air units (chaos fury, harpy) in the city.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The only thing that I would do to the castles/watch towers is to make them only grow when troops are stationed at them. If that could be done, than it might make the AI use them more rarely.