Dr kossin #37
- Thread starter kossin
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Kossin, I have a question. How do you pull of the great lighthouse without falling to far behind in expansion? Playing on emperor, when I go for it, I fall back in expansion and either barbs infest it, or an AI gets some land I wanted but was already not guaranteed to get.
The most common mistakes are building barracks, monuments or libraries, where you need none. When you expand just build units, workers and settlers in most of your cities. If you do not have much space to expand from the beginning, don´t build the GLH.
That would be great
.well that's usually the problem isnt it? I can manage a food economy on lower levels. But on emperor i usually need alot of cottages to keep up in tech. (Assuming i'm not using a SE, which is usually harder to pull off at higher levels). So cottages at riverside grasland cities + no river/grasland at other cities = not much food surplus outside of rescourses. So usually i get a surplus of about 12 in 1 city (= gp farm), surplus of around 7-5 in half of my other cities, and a surplus of 4-0 in the rest of them. That means half of my cities can whip once, maybe twice and then they take forever to grow. And the other half will end up around pop 6. How do you take care of that? More farms? But then how do you keep your tech rate?
how can you get 40 overflow? The max amount of hammers per pop is 37 when you're coming up on cavalry (forges, but no factories, and no police state). Am i missing smth here?
amen
.It depends on the map... it's not always necessary to build GLH. Easiest answer is to set up blocking cities. Settler spam is another option. In the Roosevelt DR, after building GLH I made a bunch of settlers and sent them unaccompanied. Once GLH is done, each city you settle will be positive on your income for a while. It does hurt a bit that your workers aren't ready to join the cities but that's just one of the ways to go ahead.
As long as you have 6 cities, there shouldn't be any problem... tech fast to a military edge and then keep expanding! (Or get Astronomy first and settle overseas if it's available)
Yup. One of the reasons why I love Creative: you save up on hammers early when it's the most important.
A good Bureaucracy-cottaged capital should be more than sufficient to out-tech Emperor AIs. If you're having trouble out-teching Emperor AIs, consider using GPs to bulb towards Liberalism. Once you have Education, there are 2 possible goals:That would be great
well that's usually the problem isnt it? I can manage a food economy on lower levels. But on emperor i usually need alot of cottages to keep up in tech. (Assuming i'm not using a SE, which is usually harder to pull off at higher levels). So cottages at riverside grasland cities + no river/grasland at other cities = not much food surplus outside of rescourses. So usually i get a surplus of about 12 in 1 city (= gp farm), surplus of around 7-5 in half of my other cities, and a surplus of 4-0 in the rest of them. That means half of my cities can whip once, maybe twice and then they take forever to grow. And the other half will end up around pop 6. How do you take care of that? More farms? But then how do you keep your tech rate?
how can you get 40 overflow? The max amount of hammers per pop is 37 when you're coming up on cavalry (forges, but no factories, and no police state). Am i missing smth here?
amen
1. Grab a military edge and spam it via whip/draft
2. Build Oxford University as fast as humanly possible. This is the time to 4-pop whip universities in your minor cities. 50-turns earlier Oxford usually means 5,000+ beakers... that's more than the cost of Rifling yes.
Non-cottage cities should hurry up to build their infrastructure and then they can start building wealth/science to tech faster.
And if you aren't already, use binary research and sell outdated techs to the AI for their gold.
A GP farm isn't defined by its food surplus. It's defined by the high food yield tiles it has!
A city size 10 with 10 grassland farms has +12 food per turn, right (2 from city tile, 1 from every farm)? The problem is every spec you run gives you -3 food -> you can run 4 specs in that city (12 beakers... maybe 18 if you have Library+University).
Compare to a city with 2 pigs tiles, you can run 5 specs at size 7.
As to 40 hammers overflow:
Once you whip 1 pop with forge, it is worth 37 hammers, correct.
However, you also have to keep in mind that the city has some natural production of its own, which also goes in the overflow.
Example:
-Cavalry 43/120 hammers
-city has a forge and 10 base hammers (assume we don't whip these away as they are from specials we'll keep working)
120-43 = 77/ 37 [roof]= [roof]2.08=3
So it costs 3 pop to whip, you're getting 3*37 = 111 hammers from the 3 pop you're whipping
43+111 = 154/120 -> 34 overflow hammers
But wait! What about the city's production? 10 base hammers * forge = 12
What we actually get is thus 43+111+12 = 166/120 -> 46 overflow hammers
So 46 is stored away, on the next turn, you start another cavalry so the total production of this turn is...
(46+10)*1.25 = 70 ---> hammer multipliers are run on the total hammers you have... in a way you're getting the forge bonus "added twice" to the pop whip, once on the pop themselves and once on the overflow
2 turns after producing your first cavalry, the city is 70/120, ready to 2-whip another Cavalry. With a good food surplus, you'll also have already grown back 1 pop, 2 depending on when you whipped (accordingly to the food bar I mean)...
Yes you're losing population long-term in your current city, but each city you whip down should about buy you a new city. In 50 turns, you'll be much much much ahead of where you'd be not whipping it to size 4.
Here's an example from this very thread:
800AD - pre-whipping
1150AD - post whipping
The last 4 columns to the right (going right to left) are: specialists in city, whip anger duration, whip overflow hammers, required pops to whip. It's a bit hard to read the red numbers I agree... it's about in the 30~40 range however. The first 2 columns after the name (left to right) are pop # and then food surplus.
Ignoring the capital (where growing is optimal due to Bureaucracy bonus) and Fish 'n Beaver (which was too late to help much on the war effort) - every single city is smaller.
In the first 16-turns span, yes they were allowed to grow, but the next 9 turns I just whipped everything in sight. So what science is lower in a few cities (it's higher in some because of Printing Press and some cottages)... they're about as good as they were 25 turns ago, are a bit more angry (ok... a lot more) BUT I have an army to show for it. No doubt I'd be a few thousand beakers ahead without whipping but my tech rate increased so much after gobbling up Toku that everything was gained back fast and then some.
hehe, yea i knew that. My gp farm has a fish and a grassland sheep tile. ;-)
I didnt realize that. This is actually very helpful, thank you.
Actually i tried it in my current game. And it worked wonderfully well on HC, who had gunpowder but hadnt bothered to upgrade his longbows. Which means i lost only 1 cav in the entire war. However, my beakers per turn is now completely bottomed out. I can get my slider up to 40% with only a little loss, but 50% would kill me. This amounts to around 250 bpt, at 1650 AD.
Now before you all start laughing your asses off, this is an island map. Which means that i have about 5 riverside tiles in my entire empire, hell even good old grassland is scarce. I'm playing izzy so i'm not financial which makes coast tiles crap aswell.
Currently i'm still at the middle of the pack tech-wise (I'm the only one with lib, i have RP on some, but napoleon has rifling on me although i can research it for 16 turns
). So how do i get my economy back on track? And another question: do i attack tokugawa (who is fairly backwards) with the spare cav from the war with HC? because if i go now i think i can take him, but if i wait a bit longer he'll have grenadiers (they come at chemistry in vanilla). On the other hand, that might totally sink my economy.Durak
PS: sry for ranting on about my own game in your dr thread. Hope you dont mind.
Well, I consider overflow as just the rest of the previous big deal (which was multiplied already). So, if there isn't any work now...why this rest should be multiplied?
As for me this moment in game looks very strange.
It isn't realistic.
On other hand if this is a special feature, then it's very nice with forge+power factory.
As for me this moment in game looks very strange.
It isn't realistic.
On other hand if this is a special feature, then it's very nice with forge+power factory.
About the 'double multiplier' on overflow: i've done some research on it, and it isnt like you said. Here's what i found out. (For completeness: i am playing vanilla, and used a chieftain game, started at the future era. No idea if this influences anything about overflow, if so, plz tell me.)
I built a factory + hydro plant and already had a forge when i built the city (some setting for future era games i guess) ==> 100% hammer multiplier
I also used bureaucracy ==> another 50% hammer multiplier (i used the capital to test)
The setup:
I have a barracks with 57/60 hammers into it. I have a base production of 26. This gives me a total production of 26*2,5 = 65 hammers that turn.
Your prediction:
65 - 3 = 62 hammers of overflow. + 26 base production of the next turn ==> 91 hammers before 'second' multiplication. ==> total expected hammers for the second turn = 91*2,5 = 227.
The actual amount of hammers:
127. This is because overflow does NOT get multiplied. Let's do the calculation again, but now without multiplying the overflow. Production for turn 1 = 65 hammers (as calculated above). Overflow at end of the first turn = 65 - 3 = 62 hammers. BUT before we go to the next turn we must divide this overflow by 2,5 (this is our multiplier) ==> overflow into the next turn = 62/2,5 = 25. This gives our production next turn: (25 + 26)*2,5 = 127.
As you can see, overflow only gets multiplied once, i.e. on the turn it is used.
Moreover: did you know that overflow does not stack? (I have no idea if you were aware of it, but in the case you aren't let me quickly explain what i found ;-) ).
At the second turn, i had also prepared a wall at 48/50 hammers. So the expected overflow on the third turn if overflow would stack would be:
127 - 2 = 125 (overflow with multipliers still applied)
125/2,5 = 50 (the expected overflow, without multipliers)
However, the overflow i got was only 26. Which is exactly my base production. Explanation: overflow does not stack. The overflow of turn 1 was used to complete my production in turn 2, but whatever was left of it after that was discarded. Only production that i actually produced on the second turn (i.e. my base production) flowed into the third turn ==> 26 hammers of overflow.
I hope i havent been stating the surprisingly obvious here ;-). Please check on bts to see if it's still the same.
Durak
I built a factory + hydro plant and already had a forge when i built the city (some setting for future era games i guess) ==> 100% hammer multiplier
I also used bureaucracy ==> another 50% hammer multiplier (i used the capital to test)
The setup:
I have a barracks with 57/60 hammers into it. I have a base production of 26. This gives me a total production of 26*2,5 = 65 hammers that turn.
Your prediction:
65 - 3 = 62 hammers of overflow. + 26 base production of the next turn ==> 91 hammers before 'second' multiplication. ==> total expected hammers for the second turn = 91*2,5 = 227.
The actual amount of hammers:
127. This is because overflow does NOT get multiplied. Let's do the calculation again, but now without multiplying the overflow. Production for turn 1 = 65 hammers (as calculated above). Overflow at end of the first turn = 65 - 3 = 62 hammers. BUT before we go to the next turn we must divide this overflow by 2,5 (this is our multiplier) ==> overflow into the next turn = 62/2,5 = 25. This gives our production next turn: (25 + 26)*2,5 = 127.
As you can see, overflow only gets multiplied once, i.e. on the turn it is used.
Moreover: did you know that overflow does not stack? (I have no idea if you were aware of it, but in the case you aren't let me quickly explain what i found ;-) ).
At the second turn, i had also prepared a wall at 48/50 hammers. So the expected overflow on the third turn if overflow would stack would be:
127 - 2 = 125 (overflow with multipliers still applied)
125/2,5 = 50 (the expected overflow, without multipliers)
However, the overflow i got was only 26. Which is exactly my base production. Explanation: overflow does not stack. The overflow of turn 1 was used to complete my production in turn 2, but whatever was left of it after that was discarded. Only production that i actually produced on the second turn (i.e. my base production) flowed into the third turn ==> 26 hammers of overflow.
I hope i havent been stating the surprisingly obvious here ;-). Please check on bts to see if it's still the same.
Durak
Fluroscent
Emperor
I am unaware of the exact mechanics of overflow, but I do know that it has changed through patches, and possibly versions. I wouldn't be suprised if the vanilla mechanics are different from the BtS ones.
IIRC, another feature of overflow is that you can only overflow at maximum the hammer cost of the current build, with the rest being converted to gold, which means that you can actually whip warriors early game for gold!. Not exact science, but I find that whipping almost done warriors adds around 20
.
Is there an updated resource that explains the mechanics? I'd sure like to know exactly what is going on.
@kossin, I enjoyed following this game. Very impressive, and goes to show how important a simple decision like where to move a scout or warrior on T0 can be.
IIRC, another feature of overflow is that you can only overflow at maximum the hammer cost of the current build, with the rest being converted to gold, which means that you can actually whip warriors early game for gold!. Not exact science, but I find that whipping almost done warriors adds around 20
.Is there an updated resource that explains the mechanics? I'd sure like to know exactly what is going on.
@kossin, I enjoyed following this game. Very impressive, and goes to show how important a simple decision like where to move a scout or warrior on T0 can be.
While I'm not certain if the mechanics are different for overflow between Vanilla and BTS, what you're experiencing is overflow gold I'd assume. You can't have more overflow hammers than the hammers cost of the item you're completing... the rest is converted to gold (it's even weirder in 3.19 BTS - thank god I'm using BULL).
As you can see from the example, this is clearly not the case. I'm building a 60 hammers barracks, which means my overflow would have to go all the way up to 60. However it doesnt, it is only 25 the second turn. So that doesnt explain it.
Round 10
Remember I said I'd wrap up the game instead of a 25-turns round when the game would be all but won? This is it. All 26 turns of them =-)
I spammed some Bombers (filled every border cities and then some), a few more Cavalry and then that's about all you need to know of what I did, the rest is all war.
I had some screenshots that didn't work but in any case, this posts already contains 29 and I was hard pressed to select the right ones to use anyway.
Ragnar and Bismarck shouldn't be allowed to take a breath. Back to war attack dog.
Meanwhile, I also go to war.
Of course Peter still doesn't have Rifling, so I'm facing Grenadiers, Cannons and the likes. After a Bomber raid... the odds are in my favor by a fair margin.
I had half expected Peter to bribe Mehmed... and that's what he did.
While he had Rifles, his SoD was stuck in a city he took from Ragnar... and by stuck I mean wounded by Bombers of course.
My secondary Cavalry stack sat in a border city, waiting for Peter's stack the next turn.
At that moment, Peter wanted to capitulate, but was afraid of my enemies... Mehmed, which he had bribed against me. I took a few more cities from both of them and once Mehmed was worn down sufficiently, both capitulated.
Rinse and repeat... move Bombers to the Viking border, move the cavalry, declare war. So what if he had Infantry?
They die just like a musketman.
I take a few more cities... how in the seven hells was he not able to tech with such great land and a shrine?
He's had enough fairly soon afterwards.
Rinse and repeat. The only problem being the German border is quite narrow. My main stack was over 120 cavalry by now (there were a bunch more healing)
To remedy to the lack of Airship space... I go into Serfdom!
I capture 2 cities and Bismarck bends the knee.
Which is Domination as I crossed the land threshold.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Post-game
An easy game. The biggest challenge here was barbarians... seriously. (at least for me)
Sury is one of the best leaders in the early game and with a monster capital like this... as soon as I had managed to dodge my neighbor's DoW checks, there was never a doubt in my mind that victory was guaranteed.
I'm hoping to see Grashopa's game, from a screenshot in another thread I saw he went a different route and tried more optimal play that the fun I had here
Some statistics screenshots.
I guess I will revisit the 800AD-1150AD round tomorrow, I need to catch up on a few more games today.
After that it's on to the next game.
Remember I said I'd wrap up the game instead of a 25-turns round when the game would be all but won? This is it. All 26 turns of them =-)
I spammed some Bombers (filled every border cities and then some), a few more Cavalry and then that's about all you need to know of what I did, the rest is all war.
I had some screenshots that didn't work but in any case, this posts already contains 29 and I was hard pressed to select the right ones to use anyway.
Ragnar and Bismarck shouldn't be allowed to take a breath. Back to war attack dog.
Spoiler :
Meanwhile, I also go to war.
Spoiler :
Of course Peter still doesn't have Rifling, so I'm facing Grenadiers, Cannons and the likes. After a Bomber raid... the odds are in my favor by a fair margin.
Spoiler :
I had half expected Peter to bribe Mehmed... and that's what he did.
Spoiler :
While he had Rifles, his SoD was stuck in a city he took from Ragnar... and by stuck I mean wounded by Bombers of course.
My secondary Cavalry stack sat in a border city, waiting for Peter's stack the next turn.
Spoiler :
At that moment, Peter wanted to capitulate, but was afraid of my enemies... Mehmed, which he had bribed against me. I took a few more cities from both of them and once Mehmed was worn down sufficiently, both capitulated.
Spoiler :
Rinse and repeat... move Bombers to the Viking border, move the cavalry, declare war. So what if he had Infantry?
Spoiler :
They die just like a musketman.
Spoiler :
I take a few more cities... how in the seven hells was he not able to tech with such great land and a shrine?
Spoiler :
He's had enough fairly soon afterwards.
Spoiler :
Rinse and repeat. The only problem being the German border is quite narrow. My main stack was over 120 cavalry by now (there were a bunch more healing)
Spoiler :
To remedy to the lack of Airship space... I go into Serfdom!
Spoiler :
I capture 2 cities and Bismarck bends the knee.
Spoiler :
Which is Domination as I crossed the land threshold.
Spoiler :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Post-game
An easy game. The biggest challenge here was barbarians... seriously. (at least for me)
Sury is one of the best leaders in the early game and with a monster capital like this... as soon as I had managed to dodge my neighbor's DoW checks, there was never a doubt in my mind that victory was guaranteed.
I'm hoping to see Grashopa's game, from a screenshot in another thread I saw he went a different route and tried more optimal play that the fun I had here
Some statistics screenshots.
Spoiler :
I guess I will revisit the 800AD-1150AD round tomorrow, I need to catch up on a few more games today.
After that it's on to the next game.
Then it might be like in 3.19 BTS I think: overflow hammers are capped at city base production -1. In your case, 26-1 = 25. Like I said, I'm no guru with the actual mechanics so I might be wrong here.
@stopstopp
BULL incorporates the Unofficial Patch for 3.19 which reverts hammer overflow to the way it was correctly fixed in previous versions (maximum overflow = cost of build).
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