Dune Wars 1.9 Final Release Feedback

[clearbeard]

At any rate, it's actually a minor issue, and it might be (if this is the culprit) just a display issue where the resources are hooking up immediately, just the tooltip is behind the times. To test this, watch the actual water accumulated in one of those cities with a new polar water shipper before it shows up in the tool tip and see if the extra water is added anyway.

I agree it's a minor issue, now that I know they'll update eventually. It's definitely not giving the water before the tech "activates" it though, very clear with the growth bar of the city. But a few turns without isn't a big deal, unless the fix is easy (which it sounds like it's not, or at least might add other unknown behavior, from your description).

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

yeah, I'm thinkin' leave it alone

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

I think we should make it a National Wonder, perhaps rename it House Academy (but that might be confusing with the Academy from Great Scientists).

I'm going to do this I think. And I think House Academy will work just fine. I've adopted a few of the suggestions in the thread as well, along with a few things from this thread and my own observations:

Current Changes
- fixed slig contract help
- Air/Nuke Defense moved from Water Cache to Guard Station(10%)/Force Shield(40%)
- Tweak to Beesting Interceptor's Wasp UnitCombat Bonus (50%->60%)
- slaves turned to workers on capture
- slaves given weak hurry production ability
- filmbook archive gives 1 free scientist, 4 research
- Order of Mentats cost reduced (850 to 600)
- Guild Research Facility gives 2 research per spice
- Chamber of Visions gives 2 espionage per spice
- Academy(from great scientist) weakened to 35% science
- Oppression gives bonus to mine upgrades as well

Planned/Possible Changes
- Change University of Arrakis to national wonder (should it stay 100%?, awefully powerful)
- Still haven't looked at the Zeal Promos
- Possibly teach slave AI to use hurry production
- Check Inquisitors are working properly

If it's suggested in this thread, but not on this list, you can assume I disagreed with it for one reason or another , but it's all still up for discussion.

I'm not touching the espionage until I have a clear idea of where it needs to head, but that's also something I'd like to add before the next patch (in a few weeks maybe).

 

[Lord Katana]

First off... first post here in DW... And great mod!

Second... looks good, the above.... those buildings are my preferred way to play DW, but they are way OP... so the nerf looks good... still grumbling about it... but it's good

Can't wait!

 

[clearbeard]

- Possibly teach slave AI to use hurry production
- Check Inquisitors are working properly

If slaves can get whatever unitAI lets great engineers do their thing, that should, I think, let them be used. Not sure the AI will use them optimally, but not sure much the AI does is optimal.

I'm pretty sure inquisitors do not work. The button is there, but it doesn't have a tooltip, and doesn't do anything when you press it. I've just built my first ever to get rid of those evil thinking machines in a newly captured Ecaz city. Quite disappointing that it doesn't seem to work. I might just have to world build it out, for now.

 

[clearbeard]

I remember it being discussed a while ago (this thread, back at post 91), but it seems interceptors (locusts anyway, don't have any of the others right now to check but I don't imagine they're different) still cannot perform intercepts while loaded in a suspensor carrier. Deliverator suggested a fix, not sure if it didn't make it into the patch or if it didn't actually fix the problem.

 

[tesb]

i hope you do not forget to fix the fVisibilityPriority for the house shield and the normal shields, i don't like doing this manually myself for every patch (have not tried the most recent yet).

an other item:
i always found it a bit odd that ornithopters could conquer cities, in fact in the early game you can do no wrong by simply building ornithopters to destroy enemy troops and conquering cities (add bombers later to reduce city defense) and building some guardsmen in every city for protection. i think ornithopters should not be able to conquer cities because:
1. it does not make much sense for basically flying unit to conquer a city, i.e. you need boots on the ground (perhaps only infantry should be allowed to conquer cities?)
2. it makes them too strong. they are very fast and do not need carryalls or suspensors to be transported over desert.

just compare them to regular infantry or other mechanized forces like tanks, they much are faster, nearly equally as hard hitting and are not constricted by terrain. imho they would still be very good fast response troops to clear out your or enemy territory.

 

[Natasha]

i always found it a bit odd that ornithopters could conquer cities, in fact in the early game you can do no wrong by simply building ornithopters to destroy enemy troops and conquering cities (add bombers later to reduce city defense) and building some guardsmen in every city for protection. i think ornithopters should not be able to conquer cities because:
1. it does not make much sense for basically flying unit to conquer a city, i.e. you need boots on the ground (perhaps only infantry should be allowed to conquer cities?)
2. it makes them too strong. they are very fast and do not need carryalls or suspensors to be transported over desert.

just compare them to regular infantry or other mechanized forces like tanks, they much are faster, nearly equally as hard hitting and are not constricted by terrain. imho they would still be very good fast response troops to clear out your or enemy territory.

I think vehicles are meant to be the fast response units. Also, nerfing thopters would have a huge impact on balance for Atreides. Also remember that unlike melee units, the heavier thopters require crystal which isn't always available.

 

[clearbeard]

I think vehicles are meant to be the fast response units. Also, nerfing thopters would have a huge impact on balance for Atreides. Also remember that unlike melee units, the heavier thopters require crystal which isn't always available.

It wouldn't necessarily nerf the Atreides much. Their 'thopters would still be the primary hitters, clearing out city defenders. It would just require a guardsman along in a scout 'thopter to actually capture the empty city. Not a bad change IMO.

 

[Natasha]

It wouldn't necessarily nerf the Atreides much. Their 'thopters would still be the primary hitters, clearing out city defenders. It would just require a guardsman along in a scout 'thopter to actually capture the empty city. Not a bad change IMO.

I suppose so. Still, thopters actually capturing doesn't bother me much.. *shrug*

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

I remember it being discussed a while ago (this thread, back at post 91), but it seems interceptors (locusts anyway, don't have any of the others right now to check but I don't imagine they're different) still cannot perform intercepts while loaded in a suspensor carrier. Deliverator suggested a fix, not sure if it didn't make it into the patch or if it didn't actually fix the problem.

Looks like it didn't make it into the 1.9.1.2 patch, I'm guessing this post fell between 1.9.1.2 and Delivator's, uh, administrative leave . I've just deleted it, so 'should' be fixed for the next patch

i hope you do not forget to fix the fVisibilityPriority for the house shield and the normal shields, i don't like doing this manually myself for every patch

Ah, remember, I've just recently stepped into this role , I'd actually assumed (from having seen discussion of this in a much earlier thread) it had been fixed until I noticed one not showing up just a couple of days ago. now set to 10,000.0 for the next patch - they should show up .

in fact in the early game you can do no wrong by simply building ornithopters to destroy enemy troops and conquering cities

I've always found them lacking compared to melee units at attacking cities, so I personally use them in just a support role. Are they really that effective against well defended cities? The AI also tends to keep a good number of rocket troopers around that keeps me from entertaining such a notion as a purely thopter attack force (unless you're grossly ahead in tech, which is hardly a unit balance issue)

Still, thopters actually capturing doesn't bother me much.

It doesn't bother me extraordinarily either. I do absolutely agree it would make more sense for them to not be able to capture cities. The reason I'm on the fence about it is for the sake of the AI (and gameplay).

As is, lonely cities in the desert and outskirts are vulnerable potentially to that lone AI thopter unit, forces you to watch your back a bit more, which I like. They've definitely caught me off guard like this before. If the AI has to coordinate carryalls/transports to attack such places, well, lets just say I'm not as worried about it. It can happen, but... less likely. So the realism argument I'm personally able to let slide.

Now, if the consensus is to not allow them to take cities, I'm not really set one way or the other, and it's a simple change.

 

[tesb]

I've always found them lacking compared to melee units at attacking cities, so I personally use them in just a support role. Are they really that effective against well defended cities? The AI also tends to keep a good number of rocket troopers around that keeps me from entertaining such a notion as a purely thopter attack force (unless you're grossly ahead in tech, which is hardly a unit balance issue)

melee is better at taking cities, but thopters are just very versatile troops due to their speed and no restriction to terrain and their withdrawal chance. i often only go for the guardsmen line for defense and thopters for everything else in early game, in the mid game i mix in bombers to help out my thopters and in the late game i switch to las troopers only. i could get melee troops for city taking but that would mean i have to spread my research more.
afaik they could also be changed to give them a negative attack modifier when attacking cities or introduce bigger nastier sandstorms that can destroy or heavily damage thopters (and perhaps suspensor vehicles)

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

I actually like the fact the there are different strategies that can work. If we nerfed everything except units specifically designated to be 'city attackers' in their ability to attack cities, we'd have a more one dimensional game.

Now, that's separate from the issue of wether they should be able to take cities or not. Taking that ability away still wouldn't nerf their ability to attack cities, you'd just have to have some more combined arms for actually occupying the city. Which isn't a bad compromise.

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

Another Update on what's included/planned:

Changes/Fixes
- fixed slig contract help
- Air/Nuke Defense moved from Water Cache to Guard Station(10%)/Force Shield(40%)
- Tweak to Beesting Interceptor's Wasp UnitCombat Bonus (50%->60%)
- slaves turned to workers on capture
- slaves given weak hurry production ability
- filmbook archive gives 1 free scientist, 4 research
- Order of Mentats cost reduced (850 to 600)
- Guild Research Facility gives 2 research per spice
- Chamber of Visions gives 2 espionage per spice
- Academy(from great scientist) weakened to 35% science
- Oppression gives bonus to mine upgrades as well
- Great Spy building gives only 75% bonus to EP's(from 100%), +2 experience to spies built in the city
- Carrier Loaded Wasp interception fix (not yet tested)
- fVisiblePriority fix for House Shield Generator and Force Shield buildings (should always show up now)

Planned/Possible Changes
- Change University of Arrakis to national wonder (should it stay 100%?, awefully powerful)
- Still haven't looked at the Zeal Promos
- Possibly teach slave AI to use hurry production
- Check Inquisitors are working properly
- NeverObsoletes unit tag from FfH2

That last one is so you can still build for instance razzia raiders even if you don't have 10 naib's chosens for instance, or still build a naib's chosen after researching the tech for Fedaykin. It'll be applied to select units only that are affected by these kinds of issues/ certain niche units

 

[tesb]

i am just making suggestions, the main issue i had was that thopters are too versatile compared to any other troops, they are especially good in taking the polar regions very early in the game

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

i am just making suggestions, the main issue i had was that thopters are too versatile compared to any other troops, they are especially good in taking the polar regions very early in the game

And I'm just evaluating them to see if they should go in . I really do appreciate the feedback, always. I don't tend towards early military build ups very often, so I've never tried such a strategy. I am going to try out taking away their ability to take cities for the next patch and see what the reaction is.

Do you think it would help balance them if we perhaps took a similar approach as with quads for instance and increase the hammer cost, making it harder in the early game to spam thopters, or would a small negative bonus for city strength help more (or some other approach)?

Chris

 

[tesb]

well not being able to capture cities would mean the players has at least to bring one scout thopter for transport to capture the polar regions early on . on the other hand it might confuse the ai too much. perhaps giving them just a city attack penalty is better, honestly i don't know.

in ffh recon units all got such a penalty because they were quite fast, compared to melee troops.

 

[Natasha]

I am going to try out taking away their ability to take cities for the next patch and see what the reaction is.

Do you think it would help balance them if we perhaps took a similar approach as with quads for instance and increase the hammer cost, making it harder in the early game to spam thopters, or would a small negative bonus for city strength help more (or some other approach)?

I think making thopters unable to capture would be enough, If you give them a city penalty they become more like vehicles, and I think it's good to maintain differences between unit types. Of course thopters can still move on desert but in the early game, when you're still developing your starting island this is not of too much concern.

 

[Jester Fool]

making thopters unable to capture would be enough

I played Dune Wars when thopters/suspensor craft could not capture cities. Game balance was terrible. The AI still placed troops in all its cities but the human player could leave cities undefended (after barbs gone) behind their own border with the AI opponents. The AI just could not effectively plan strikes against the human - always attacked bordering cities. Allowing the capture of cities, forces the human to garrison all their cities instead of exploiting the AI's weakness.

 

[ChrisAdams3997]

Hey Jester, that's my biggest concern with making this change, as I mentioned earlier. Since then, Dune Wars has been merged with the latest BetterAI code, so hopefully it's less of an issue. So like I said, I'm going to try it and see how it plays out. I'm not entirely that optimistic, but we'll see.