Elohims should be "Spiritual" rather than the current implementation of "Tolerant"

[Iceciro]

I think if Tolerant came with a culture bonus in vanilla, that would help - not a straight one like creative, but a percentage chance so the Elohim flip people easiest.

But I think the above poster nailed it on the head. It's not so much that Tolerant forces you to go warring - it's that the Elohim really don't have any other neat toys, so to stave off boredom you need to go warring. When you're not at war with most races you have something to do, something special about that race to use to your advantage. Elohim in basic have nothing.

The Tolerant trait does not make them go to war. The fact that the Tolerant trait defines them as a civilization makes you want to go to war to USE it.

 

[ChinaBlue]

The Tolerant trait does not make them go to war. The fact that the Tolerant trait defines them as a civilization makes you want to go to war to USE it.

True for me yes, that's why I'm in a world war right now playing Elohim while I had excellent relations with most and plenty good land but no, had to build those sidar ghosts and..well, big mess. Big fun, also

Elohim as they are have my unconditional love unless...they would lose tolerant

 

[Jules.lt]

Well you don't like Elohims, then... (as in their flavour and unique units and buildings... everything apart from warmonger's tolerant)
What you like is being able to build units of all the civs by conquering their cities.

This is true of many people, so I guess that the mechanic should somehow be kept.
I still totally oppose it being kept as an Elohim leader trait, or being particularly linked to Elohims for that matter.

 

[someone67]

Well you don't like Elohims, then... (as in their flavour and unique units and buildings... everything apart from warmonger's tolerant)
What you like is being able to build units of all the civs by conquering their cities.

This is true of many people, so I guess that the mechanic should somehow be kept.
I still totally oppose it being kept as an Elohim leader trait, or being particularly linked to Elohims for that matter.

This is why I suggested to add Thessalonica (ORG/DEF), the Elohim leader in the "Return of Winter" scenarioas a playable leader for the Elohim. To compensate for not having the tolerant trait she could get a builder trait like industrial. And maybe a complete new mechanic, e.G. a "And now to sth. completly different" trait which would allowe to change one or all your traits when you feel like it. (Maybe only once in the game)

 

[Honor]

Tolerant renamed to Conqueror and given to Decius sounds good. The Elohim need something new to spice them up. Here are some ideas to that end:

* All Unique Features give double benefits to them where applicable. Standing Stones give 2 Earth Mana instead of 1 for instance.
* An Elohim-only civic that lets them have more than one non-evil state religion. If you wanna go OO, CoE or AV as the Elohim, you'll be stuck with only one state religion.
* General tweak: Make the defender trait give +20% str at home so that it will matter more.

 

[Broken Hawk]

Just my two cents but I enjoy playing the Elohim with the Tolerant trait both game and lore wise. As mentioned, I think the Tolerant trait fits the Grigori also.

 

[Honor]

Yeah, Tolerant staying as Tolerant and given to Grigori also sounds good. Forgot to mention that.

 

[the_fish]

This is why I suggested to add Thessalonica (ORG/DEF), the Elohim leader in the "Return of Winter" scenarioas a playable leader for the Elohim. To compensate for not having the tolerant trait she could get a builder trait like industrial. And maybe a complete new mechanic, e.G. a "And now to sth. completly different" trait which would allowe to change one or all your traits when you feel like it. (Maybe only once in the game)

Yeah, Tolerant staying as Tolerant and given to Grigori also sounds good. Forgot to mention that.

So...swapping Cassiel's "Adaptive" for "Tolerant" (and vice versa?).

I like the Grigori synergy with tolerant - adventurers especially - but I've no idea about the lore (I'll leave that to everyone else).

I agree that the Elohim appear to need something interesting that isn't an aggressive trait - adaptive might work but could be too powerful, and possibly unflavourful. Spiritual is the best flavour fit (obviously), but could also be too powerful.

Surely adjusting which leader has which traits is the kind of thing people can easily "mod" and test themselves?

 

[ChinaBlue]

I'm in favour of the idea of tolerant be given to Grigori to make up more for not being able to do anything with religions, which hurts the whole game. A nice number of self made heroes and an army combined of specialist soldiers of all nations sounds like the painkiller for that. But only one civ should have tolerant though..
For Elohim replacing Tolerant with Adaptive would keep them interesting enough for me to play, I guess.
So, my 'vote' has changed over the course of this discussion

 

[Lgaard]

I've just played Elohim for the first time and I have the following conclusions. Much has been told about 'tolerant' trait (see above), so i will not repeat that, but I agree the current mechanics supports war-mongering gemestyle.

It is even more true, when you consider another civ-specific feature granted to Elohim: a reliquary. Easily obtainable 'spiritual guide' promotion has a following consequence:
It is worth to start a war with a (weaker?) neighbour, spam weak and cheap units, and attack even at 40%-50% odds. When the unit wins - you gain a lot of XP. Try another time - if it loses - than there is a chance the easily obtained XP will be transfered to your fat and save adepts, mages, heroes etc resting in your cities. Combine it with apprenticeship/form of a titan/theocracy etc. - and you can realy have a nice results.
It is a nice strategy especially at Erebus map, when you can easily fortify units in a pass between mountain ranges, and, while your cities are safe, make raids with the abovementioned units.
Note, that this war is not even intended to be won. It is just a war for... having a war.
Not very supportable RP-ish and lorewise for peace- and tranquility-loving nation.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I've just played Elohim for the first time and I have the following conclusions. Much has been told about 'tolerant' trait (see above), so i will not repeat that, but I agree the current mechanics supports war-mongering gemestyle.

It is even more true, when you consider another civ-specific feature granted to Elohim: a reliquary. Easily obtainable 'spiritual guide' promotion has a following consequence:
It is worth to start a war with a (weaker?) neighbour, spam weak and cheap units, and attack even at 40%-50% odds. When the unit wins - you gain a lot of XP. Try another time - if it loses - than there is a chance the easily obtained XP will be transfered to your fat and save adepts, mages, heroes etc resting in your cities. Combine it with apprenticeship/form of a titan/theocracy etc. - and you can realy have a nice results.
It is a nice strategy especially at Erebus map, when you can easily fortify units in a pass between mountain ranges, and, while your cities are safe, make raids with the abovementioned units.
Note, that this war is not even intended to be won. It is just a war for... having a war.
Not very supportable RP-ish and lorewise for peace- and tranquility-loving nation.

Although I agree with the general feeling of this post, and I have voted that Elohim should get Spiritual, I cannot help but note that, a peace-oriented civ has very small chances to win this game. So, spiritual is good, but Elohim need a way to survive. This leads to a more complex solution than just removing the tolerant and putting spiritual, instead.
This change is one fitted for a mod and, in fact, I think FF has done this quite nicely.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, even spiritual Elohim won't be forbidden from building units and using them.

I've added an Elohim leader who isn't tolerant, but spiritual in my personal XML changes, since I see the value in both viewpoints. Thanks to Someone67 who suggested using Thesallonica for that purpose.

 

[Ribusprissin]

The Elohim get a new unit called an "Emissary". They would be available with say, Trade, cost 60, have 0 combat ability and move two. The idea would be that you go to a city of another civ which you have open borders with, and deploy the Emissary to "pick up" some culture of the city he visits, and then brings it back to the Elohim city, which then would get a limited ability to build stuff from the civ you got the culture from. The more culture you mix, the more stuff you get. (I realize this is not hammered out at all, but just a first idea) Any thoughts?

Elohim can now send a Monk west to Malakim to pick up Budd^H^H^H^HEmpyrian sutras. Of course, an unguarded Monk is bait for bandits and Demons, so you'd better escort him with, say, a couple animals and a Warrior.
Another idea, more complex than doubling the benefits from Unique Features, would be to let some elohim units build preserves (visitor's centers?) around UFs -- although since the UF is already a feature, you can't improve it, so change the terrain type from plains or tundra or whatever to "preserve", which would double the mana output of Letum, Mirror, and Tomb, and give the mana from Sepulcher and Pyre, and let the Seven Pines user not die, and so on.
EDIT: yknow, literary refs notwithstanding, I think of all civs the Elohim should be able to send units to Open Borders and bring the religion home. That would be a special mechanic which would let them benefit from peace, which is what we're looking for, right?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Oh, and the Blank Banner story is cool. I support adding it to the civilopedia.
Althrough it doesn't justify Elohim Demon Armies of Hell and the Palace switching. And maybe the warmongering mechanics, too.

 

[DaleKing]

wouldn't giving elohim added benefits from unique features encourage warmongering as well, like if they wanted to control a unique feature in someone else's territory?

Also, someone said it didn't make sense for the Elohim to build "evil" units. But, the Blank Banner story shows that when the Elohim, using tolerant trait, build units of another civ in a conquered city, those units aren't "evil" that, in fact, they've been converted to the Elohim viewpoint.

I guess the main question is, can things like undead and Demons be converted or redeemed?
if not, maybe the tolerant trait should be modified to not include these types of units.

IMHO, in general, tolerant trait works well lorewise with Elohim. nothing says that a civ that promotes peace shouldn't or couldn't be militarily capable, if only to enforce that peace.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I guess the main question is, can things like undead and Demons be converted or redeemed?

I doubt that demons can be redeemed in quantities large enough to form a unit. If the Elohim can reform large masses of Demons, they can reform anyone.

if only to enforce that peace.

The best way to enforce peace is to conquer everyone else.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It is possible for a demon to be redeemed, but a redeemed demon is a demon no more. A demon who has repented would become an angel. I suspect former demons are most common in Sirona's heaven and second most common in Junil's. I don't really see Junil accepting them back.

It is a very rare occurrence for a demon to repent, much less common than for an angel to be corrupted.



I still think that the Tolerant trait as implemented doesn't fir the Elohim well at all. It fits Decius quite nicely, whether renamed or not.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I think the Tolerant trait and all it's effects fit the Elohim perfectly.
I know most of you see them as a love-love peace-peace care bear state.
But I see the Elohim as something similar yet much diferent. I see the Elohim as a faction that is not afraid to take up arms and magic to defed the Peace they beleve in. And a nation that can be weary pragmatic when that is what it takes.
And so convinced that their belefs are the right ones, that it rubbs of on everyone arround him. Something like the Tau Empire from Warhammer 40K.

I have no problems with seing other peoples troops, brainwashed (by their own will or othervise) into beleving that the Elohim way is the way of good and light. And that they have found their purpose in the light.
I can easily imagine enemy elite troops fighting for their new Elohim masters even more fanaticly than they did for their former ones.
I can easily imagine Elohim priests walking down the streets of a conquered city, healing, preaching and outright indoctrinating the population to fight for them.

I imagine a demon standing there, fighting for what he sees as the "greater good" called peace the Elohim have shown him. And he is so convinced that the state of peace and tolerance and prosperity he is fighting for is the greater good, that he is willing to lay down his life and sole for it.

 

[Rystic]

I think the Tolerant trait and all it's effects fit the Elohim perfectly.
I know most of you see them as a love-love peace-peace care bear state.
But I see the Elohim as something similar yet much diferent. I see the Elohim as a faction that is not afraid to take up arms and magic to defed the Peace they beleve in. And a nation that can be weary pragmatic when that is what it takes.
And so convinced that their belefs are the right ones, that it rubbs of on everyone arround him. Something like the Tau Empire from Warhammer 40K.

I have no problems with seing other peoples troops, brainwashed (by their own will or othervise) into beleving that the Elohim way is the way of good and light. And that they have found their purpose in the light.
I can easily imagine enemy elite troops fighting for their new Elohim masters even more fanaticly than they did for their former ones.
I can easily imagine Elohim priests walking down the streets of a conquered city, healing, preaching and outright indoctrinating the population to fight for them.

I imagine a demon standing there, fighting for what he sees as the "greater good" called peace the Elohim have shown him. And he is so convinced that the state of peace and tolerance and prosperity he is fighting for is the greater good, that he is willing to lay down his life and sole for it.

Considering this, and what MagisterCultumm said, maybe Demonic units should be born Angelic, instead?

I also support a 'Diverse' trait for the Grigori, Elohim and Kuriotates that gives a fraction of the units they create random racial promotions.

 

[Tabris]

Yeah, Tolerant staying as Tolerant and given to Grigori also sounds good. Forgot to mention that.

Yes, i was just going to suggest the same thing.