Enders Game 1: The Training Game Competition - Team 1

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First, the Viking clever trap. I just saw the settler, and when I moved one step...



Large map, with possible city sites marked.



And Finally my attempt at dotmap.



I cannot see any reason to NOT settle at red dot. It will be a, mighty shield machine cranking out loyal russian troops for a long time.

Grey dot is a weak city, but not much overlap.

Pink dot would still be on a river, but with some overlap. Overlap would let it share cow with MOscow though, should that be possible. ( Like if MOscow is at size 6 and do nto want to grow. )

Yellow dot is hypothetical, since I do nto have any scout data here.

Grimjack
 
@Grimjack: Are you using the English European version of PTW? If so, could you perhaps advise SHard (via PM) on how he might upgrade to 1.21f? He was having trouble yesterday and I'm not sure if he has solved his problem yet. Your turns look good and I will post comments for both you and Orbit when I wake up. Gotta love the summer, going to bed at 5am (just watched Back to the Future III) and waking up at 1pm.
 
Here we go:

Ok, I've played my 20 turns on a really wierd version of civ :/ Anyway, I don't think it affected the gameplay, I just hope Firaxis get Europeans the next patch soon enough.

4000BC (although my version reckons it is 4000AD :D): Move worker to Cattle and send scout down the river to look for any better starting locations but as I suspected we are already in the best. My aim is to make Moscow a settler factory. We already have pottery and bronze working, two important early techs so for research I decide to go for iron working at min. I know the AI loves to go for iron working, but what with us being expansionist and what with the balance of other civ traits out there I reckoned we could pick up many of the other first tier techs. I set Moscow to build a scout. This may be a bad decision but I think we want to try and use our expansionist trait properly.

3950BC: I decide to head south with the scout as there appears to be jungle to the north. Worker irrigates the cattle

3900BC: There is coast to the south so the scout follows it round to the west.

3850BC: Moscow builds its scout and I order up one more so we can explore in all directions, hopefully finding lots of huts.

3800BC: Hmm nothing much happens

3750BC: Worker roads cattle, scout meets Chinese warrior. They have warrior code and masonry. For now I cannot get a good deal on these but I will kean to trade in future.

3700BC: Moscow grows to size 2. I set it to work the cattle and the wheat to go for growth. It runs at +5 food already. Have to move luxes up to 20% to compensate for unhappiness

3650BC: That jungle is really hampering exploration :/

3600BC: Worker finishes road on cattle. This was a tough decision for me. If I irrigate the wheat Moscow will be running at +6 food per turn, which would not improve growth over +5 per turn. However we can switch from running +6 to +4 every other turn to still net +10 over 2 turns but have one turn (the +4 turn) working an extra bonus grassland. I decide to go for this as this means when fully improved Moscow can run as a settler factory switching from size 5 to 4. However, we don't need to irrigate the wheat just yet and decide we need to get the granary online. I mine the bonus grassland to the west of Moscow as a road in this square is best from the point of view of settler/troop movement.

3550BC: Explore.

3500BC: I still haven't traded with China yet. Moscow grows, Luxs to 30%. I set it to work the bg by the river. I know this tile would be better to improve than the one I am currently working on from the point of view of commerce, but it would have been two wasted worker turns move to and from that square.

3450BC: Scouts are still in jungle which is really frustrating as I can't use their two movement points properly :/

3400BC: Northern scout finds some flat land, which will help exploration.

3350BC: Explore

3300BC: Western Scout gets ceremonial burial from a hut :). Moscow grows again, luxs to 40%. China got bronze working, perhaps I should have sold this to them earlier :(

3250BC: Set worker to road mined bg.

3200BC: Explore

3150BC: Make contact with the Egyptians. They have Masonry over us. I buy warrior code for pottery, ceremonial burial, 1 gpt and 59 gold off china. Then trade Warrior code + 2gpt for Masonry and 1 gold from Egypt. This was probably a mistake and now I am fairly sure I will get beaten to iron working by the other civs :/

3100BC: Moscow grows, luxes to 50%. I abandon my plan to have Moscow working as a size 5 to size 4 settler factory and aim for size 6 to size 5 pop changes. We get a settler from a goody hut. Begrudgingly I disband him :(

3050BC: We need one more mined bg to get Moscow running as a settler-every-4-turns factory, so I set our worker onto that. We make contact with English in the west. They have alphabet, the wheel and mysticism and need none of our techs.

I think I have done OK. Sorry if some of these comments make no sense as I was really confused by the game. All of the place holders seem to be screwed so instead of gold it was 'alliance' and rather than being at peace, China were 'in treasury'. I sure hope that European patch comes out soon.

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/EG13050BC.SAV

Don't hold back Speaker, I'm here to learn :)
 
I have down loaded the file but have not been able to play yet. Work is kicking my rear end again with a major project do soon. I will try and play tonight and post.
 
4000BC (1) The starting spot looks great, with cattle, wheat, and two bonus grass, with several hills and more grass. I can see some jungle to the north and I think I see the coast to the east. I move the scout one tile north east and see that the coast is indeed to the west. I move it onto the hill directly north of the starting spot to try to reveal as much land around the capital as I possibly can. I move the worker onto the cattle and found Moscow where the settler is. Founding reveals three more bonus grass that will be in Moscow's radius. This might be the best city I have ever seen, with cattle, wheat, 5 bonus grass, 10 regular grass, and 3 hills. Wow. We are very lucky. I make sure the citizen is working the cattle tile and I change Moscow's production to a scout.

3950BC (2) I start research on Alphabet because it is the most expensive tech (so it would pop last), and I hope to get all the cheapies from huts or through trading. Research is set at the minimum of 20%. Once I build one road, I can drop it to 10%. I irrigate the cattle first because the food is much more important than the gold at this point. Food is the most important resource at this point. Moscow will be able to run 5fpt (food per turn) with irrigated cattle and wheat and will be able to get many shields from the bg. It will be able to build a settler every 4 turns forever. The scout hops west and northwest, ending his turn on another hill. The more hills you can end your turn on, the better, since they reveal much more land than anything flat. Mountains are even better.

3900BC (3) The scout again goes west and ends his turn on a mountain. A giant jungle is revealed. This will take forever to clear with non-industrious workers, so we will have to build a lot of them. A good long-term plan might be to have Moscow alternate between settlers and workers.

3850BC (4) Rather than trudge through the jungle, wasting movement, I go back north and end on the other mountain. This reveals three spices northwest of Moscow. There is a freshwater lake, more rivers, and a whole lot of jungle. In case you were unsure, we are right near the equator.

3800BC (5) With another scout due in one turn, I decide to bite the bullet and send this scout north through the jungle. Hopefully he can find some level ground soon.

3750BC (6) Irrigation finishes and I start a road. Scout finishes and I send him south and start another scout. More jungle revealed in the north, but I will trudge on.

3700BC (7) Moscow grows, so I must bump luxuries up to 10%, but the additional commerce lets me drop science to 10% as well. The governor assigns the second citizen to work a bonus grass, but that would slow down our growth by a turn, so I change it to the wheat. Make sure to ve vigilant about doing this. The scout in the north finds more jungle, while the scout in the south may have found the edge of an island?

3650BC (8) Just more exploring of jungle in the north and what seems to be the edge of the continent in the south.

3600BC (9) Moscow finishes its road and I find myself with an interesting choice. We are already making 5fpt, so irrigating the wheat will put us at 6fpt, which doesn't help us at all (think about the food that will be wasted). So instead of irrigating the wheat, I let it be and move onto one of the bonus grass tiles. To the north, contact is made with a Scandinavian scout, who is expansionistic and militaristic. We are both expansionistic, so we both have pottery. We have bronze working to his warrior code, but he requires all of our gold plus most of our income along with bronze working to make a trade, so I hold off. Southern scout shows that we indeed are on the edge of the continent.

3550BC (10) Finally my northern scout reveals the edge of the jungle. I check back in with Scandinavia and there is nothing new on the trade front. They have one more city than us and only 10 gold in their treasury, to our 38. Moscow will grow next turn and finish its scout, but no micromanagement will help.

3500BC (11) Moscow's cultural borders expand and Moscow grows again, so I have to bump up luxuries again, this time to 30%. I change the citizens so they are working the wheat, the cattle, and the bonus grass on the river to the southwest. This will be changed as soon as my mine finishes. I find the borders of a Scandinavian city to the north. We really have little land to work with here due to the huge jungle. I start on a warrior for mp, since I have 3 scouts already. Scandinavia has developed or found Ceremonial Burial, but I again hold off trading because they want money along with our tech. I need to make more contacts to lower the prices. Furs are discovered northwest of Moscow.

3450BC (12) More exploring and nothing on the trade front.

3400BC (13) Bonanza! Contact made with Egypt, who is Industrious and Religious. They have Masonry and Ceremonial Burial, but lack Bronze Working and Pottery. I quickly check back with Scandinavia and confirm that they lack Masonry, so I trade Pottery, Bronze Working, 1gpt, and 39gold to Egypt for Masonry (expensive tech), which I then trade to Scandinavia along with Bronze working and 2gpt and 5 gold for Warrior Code, which I then trade to Egypt for Ceremonial Burial and 49 gold. The overall trade nets us Masonry, Warrior Code, and Ceremonial Burial at a price of 55 gold (3gpt minus 5gold). This will hurt our income until Moscow grows some more, but at this point, it is worth it. I will be making more contacts soon and have a lot to trade now. Egypt has no other cities besides their capital, by the way.

3350BC (14) Gems found near Egypt.

3300BC (15) Chinese warrior found north of Moscow, while Chinese borders are found to the west. China has all the techs I have, has 10 gold and no extra cities. We will be hemmed in here before long. Moscow builds warrior and starts on granary. With a surplus of 5 food, a granary will be invaluable for Moscow, letting it grow in 2 turns. Warrior for MP lets the luxury rate stay at 30%.

3250BC (16) Mine finishes and granary time drops by four turns. Road will get us back in the positive and hopefully will let us lower the luxury rate.

3200BC (17) Northern scout has a ton of land to explore, but instead of exploring in a circle to reveal as much land as he can, I send him in one direction to try to go farther and make more contacts. The quicker we make contact, the easier we can trade for techs cheaply. Nothing new on the trade front. I have been checking this every turn.

3150BC (18) More exploring and nothing new.

3100BC (19) Moscow grows and luxuries must be increased to 40%, which forces us into a balanced budget. We have 57 gold in the bank, so this won't kill us. What are our options here? Building another warrior would allow us to lower luxuries due to the increase in mp, but we already have 5 units, so the warrior would cost 1gpt anyways. The problem is that there are three tiles being worked without roads (two on rivers). Moscow has grown too fast for our one worker to keep up, and building a mine, which took 6 turns, did not help in that regard. It is no big deal, I will build a road first on the next tile (a mine would take so long that the granary would be finished first anyways) and we will be back in (the) black.

3050BC (20) More exploring in the north and I think we are near to finding some more contacts. Dyes exposed near China and more gems near Scandinavia. Thus ends my 20-turn reign.

Conclusions-
Technology: We have Bronze Working, Masonry, Pottery, Warrior Code, and Ceremonial Burial, with Alphabet due in 22 turns.
Economy: 57 gold in the treasury, making 0gpt at a slider setting of 5.1.4. In 13 turns we will recover 3gpt from trades, but before then we need more roads! Building a settler after the granary and founding another city will also increase our budget big time.
Cities: Moscow will grow in 3 turns and build its Granary in 6. No food will be wasted since Moscow will be almost ready to grow to size 7 before it builds its granary.
Other: We have three contacts so far and need more. I am a little disappointed that I didn't get to pop any huts yet, but choosing Alphabet, the most expensive tech, for a 40turn research was still the right move. If any of you chose Ceremonial Burial or Warrior Code for your first research project, I hope you see why that was a mistake. If not, I will explain it to you. ;) Screenshot to follow.

EG1-Team1-Speaker-3050BC
 
@ Orbit: Here goes my first criticism. You did several things very well and several things not so well. I'm going to separate my comments into different sections.

Technology
The only technology that is crucial in the early game is Pottery. Granaries are usually necessary in your capital or second city to help your expansion keep up with the AI. You recognized that here, building a granary in Moscow, and it will even finish before mine does. With that said, researching Ceremonial Burial at maximum science is in my opinion, not the best move. Researching anything at max science is not in your best interest here, but Ceremonial Burial is especially bad. Spending 14 turns on it is a waste of money, since Ceremonial Burial is so cheap to buy. A better move would have been to research Alphabet or Iron Working (most expensive techs) at the minimum rate, which you could have gotten 14 turns earlier, and would have been likely to get them before most other Civs and would be able to build up a treasury in the meantime. No brokarage opportunities presented themselves to you, but I have found that it is very important to have as much money as you can early, so you can easily keep tech parity like I did. Starting on Alphabet second was a good move, but I don't agree with your maximum research. You will be able to get it around the same time as I do with minimum research, but going minimum science lets you be more flexible and that is important in the early game when you don't know who is hiding in the fog. It could be a Commercial Civ waiting to trade Alphabet to you, which you could then trade for other techs, if only you could afford it. As an afterthought, were you planning on building a temple sometime soon? If not, maximum research definitely was unnecessary. These are the sort of things you should be thinking about, being as efficient as possible.

Exploration
Why did you build warriors to explore? As an expansionistic tribe, you have the ability to build scouts, and this is a VERY big advantage over non-expansionistic Civs. Scouts move twice as fast as warriors, just like Industrious workers work twice as fast as regular workers. To take full advantage, you should build the same number of scouts (or workers if you are industrious), so you can explore (or build) twice as much. Compare the amount of land you scouted to the amount I did. More exploration equals more contact equals cheaper technology, and that is why I have met one more tribe than you and have developed several more technologies.

City Management
This was your strongest area. You got Moscow up to 5fpt, built one warrior for mp, handled the lux slider like a pro, and have Moscow ready to crank out settlers. I would have mined the river bonus grass before the one you are currently mining, since the river bonus grass is a stronger tile due to the river, but that is pretty much a nitpick. Interesting that both you and I ignored the wheat tile. Can't imagine that happens too often, but it wasn't a bad move here.

Overall
Overall, not a bad turn. Moscow is set up beautifully to be a powerhouse city. Your technology/diplomacy/exploration skills need work, but you're in luck because that is exactly what I wanted to focus this game on. :) Knowing the right technology to choose in the early part of the game takes a lot of practice, and hopefully you can learn from my game and the games of your teammates. Any questions or anything you would like clarified?
 
@Grimjack: A very nice turn, but still several things to work on.

Technology
Researching CB because you do not want to pop the cheapest tech is good reasoning, but not really sound strategy. You shouldn't RELY on huts or on the Great Library, or on anything else. CB is also the cheapest to buy. Your trades with China were good, but its too bad you didn't make contact with Scandinavia sooner. Your max science run on Alphabet is a waste in my opinion. You save a dozen or so turns but you will have 5 gold in your account when research is done (maybe a little more by lowering the slider at the end). If everyone else has Alphabet by then, either by meeting a Commercial tribe or popping a hut, or researching with their advantage, you will be in very poor position to buy tech and unless you can pop some huts of your own, might find yourself in a large tech hole.

Exploration
All in all, not bad. You made contact with two tribes, but it was possible to contact at least 4. I think you might have been better off making three scouts and only one warrior, which would have improved your exploration rate by 1/3, but your management of the slider (and Chinese aggression) held you back here. Excellent work finding a hut, too bad you got a settler. ;)

City Management
Excellent work noticing that irrigating the wheat would waste food. Like the rest of us, your Moscow grew too fast to accomodate your worker. I didn't do it, but I wonder if sneaking out a worker might have been beneficial. Like the rest of us, you were working tiles that did not generate commerce, but what can you do. :rolleyes: Your choice of building a settler before a granary is questionable, since a granary will allow settlers in 4 turns as long as you get 7spt for 2 turns and 8spt for 2 turns, but since you plan on building a granary after the settler, it's not too bad of a decision.

Overall
Overall not a bad round at all. Moscow is primed, you have kept up mostly in technology and have explored a decent amount of territory, including planning of several good city sites. Any questions or anything you would like clarified?
 
@SHard: Great turn overall, but still a few things to work on.

Technology
I am very happy with your minimum run on Iron Working and I love your reasoning tha twe already have two important techs and have no desperate (read: maximum science) need for anything else. I chose alphabet, but just as easily could have chosen Iron Working, but I think that Alphabet is slightly more valuable in the short term, though finding a source of Iron is no less important for the long term, even if we will not be using it any time soon. Your trades were great. See how easy it is to keep up when you make lots of contact? The only concern is that you do not have much money left, so you will have some difficulty in keeping up if the others stay at tech parity.

Exploration
This was your strongest and weakest area. Kudos to you for sending two scouts straight in a direction until you made contact. 3 contacts at this point is great! Unfortunately, you did not fully scout the area around your own city and missed on your closest contact, Scandinavia. Your turn recap says you built two scouts, but I only see two total, which includes the one you started with. What happened to the third scout? He would have been very helpful in exploring the area around your own city to find future city sites.

City Management
You are under the unit support cost, so you are wasting money on luxury tax. With the granary due in 2, you could move a citizen from a bonus grass to a river grass, still finishing in 2, but letting you lower the lux tax by 10%, which will let you make 1gpt. The very early granary is a great move, but you will certainly need a warrior for MP at some point here. Running a farmer's gambit is one thing, but having no military at all in your only city is very risky.

Overall
A strong set of turns. Early contact is important and you made 4 of them and likely would be found by Scandinavia soon. Good technology moves and your risks with Moscow look like they will pay off.
 
Originally posted by Speaker

Technology
I am very happy with your minimum run on Iron Working and I love your reasoning tha twe already have two important techs and have no desperate (read: maximum science) need for anything else. I chose alphabet, but just as easily could have chosen Iron Working, but I think that Alphabet is slightly more valuable in the short term, though finding a source of Iron is no less important for the long term, even if we will not be using it any time soon. Your trades were great. See how easy it is to keep up when you make lots of contact? The only concern is that you do not have much money left, so you will have some difficulty in keeping up if the others stay at tech parity.

Yeah, I am unsure where the money went. I guess I would have more left had I met the Vikings (I really don't understand how I missed them) as the prices would have been driven down.

Exploration
This was your strongest and weakest area. Kudos to you for sending two scouts straight in a direction until you made contact. 3 contacts at this point is great! Unfortunately, you did not fully scout the area around your own city and missed on your closest contact, Scandinavia. Your turn recap says you built two scouts, but I only see two total, which includes the one you started with. What happened to the third scout? He would have been very helpful in exploring the area around your own city to find future city sites.

I'm puzzled by the third scout. I think I must have fooled myself into thinking I had built a third, when actually I went for the granary. Normally I try to have 3 scouts when I am expansionist to hunt out huts and other civs early on. Otherwise there is no real advantage to being expansionist. I messed up on this and I may have met the Vikings had I got a 3rd scout out.

City Management
You are under the unit support cost, so you are wasting money on luxury tax. With the granary due in 2, you could move a citizen from a bonus grass to a river grass, still finishing in 2, but letting you lower the lux tax by 10%, which will let you make 1gpt. The very early granary is a great move, but you will certainly need a warrior for MP at some point here. Running a farmer's gambit is one thing, but having no military at all in your only city is very risky.

Ah yes, military police. My flawed reasoning behind this was trying desperately to stop Moscow getting above size 6. Going to size 7 means Moscow takes twice as long to grow so I reckoned I needed my granary up ASAP if I was to keep it in check. Obviously I could have tweaked the city tiles to slow Moscow's growth but I wanted to start expanding ASAP, particularly as I think the AI on emperor are going to be pushing hard for land. My thoughts were that I would save more money on lux in the long run if Moscow stayed under size 7 as the luxuries cost on a size 7 city would be very high. As far as leaving Moscow undefended, I agree this was risky. Of course at the time I didn't realise quite how close the Vikings were.

Just one comment for you Speaker, your research on Alphabet is due in in 22 turns, whereas my iron working is done in 21. I think is because you started your research on turn 2. Did you know you could start research on turn 1? After you found your first city and the message flicks up to press enter or space bar for next turn if you hit F6 and select a tech from the tree it starts researching earlier. I know this saving of 1 turn isn't particularly significant but you never know, it could prove useful ;)
 
Originally posted by SHard


Did you know you could start research on turn 1? After you found your first city and the message flicks up to press enter or space bar for next turn if you hit F6 and select a tech from the tree it starts researching earlier. I know this saving of 1 turn isn't particularly significant but you never know, it could prove useful ;)

Very interesting, I did not know that. Even I can learn something from this game. :) Saving one turn is indeed very important, although I guess instead of putting the extra turn of gold into science, I put it into my treasury and then used it to buy tech, so maybe it doesn't matter afterall?
 
Originally posted by Speaker
Exploration
Why did you build warriors to explore? As an expansionistic tribe, you have the ability to build scouts, and this is a VERY big advantage over non-expansionistic Civs. Scouts move twice as fast as warriors, just like Industrious workers work twice as fast as regular workers. To take full advantage, you should build the same number of scouts (or workers if you are industrious), so you can explore (or build) twice as much. Compare the amount of land you scouted to the amount I did. More exploration equals more contact equals cheaper technology, and that is why I have met one more tribe than you and have developed several more technologies.


About the warrior to explore. I never played with an expansionistic Civ before, so I built a Warrior to explore out of habit. I didn't even realise the mistake until you pointed it out. And to make matters worse, I bogged him down in exploration searching a penisula that I thought was a landbrigde.
 
Originally posted by Orbit
About the warrior to explore. I never played with an expansionistic Civ before, so I built a Warrior to explore out of habit. I didn't even realise the mistake until you pointed it out. And to make matters worse, I bogged him down in exploration searching a penisula that I thought was a landbrigde.

I will assume partial responsibility here. I should have asked you to think about the strengths and weaknesses Russia has as a tribe. Those sort of exploration gaffs (searching a peninsula) happen to the best of us, but can often be avoided by heading toward the biggest area of open space. Using the minimap, you could have assumed that since we were on the right side of the map, toward the bottom, there would be more contacts to the left and up. No big deal though, since it doesn't always work like that.
 
Originally posted by Speaker


Very interesting, I did not know that. Even I can learn something from this game. :) Saving one turn is indeed very important, although I guess instead of putting the extra turn of gold into science, I put it into my treasury and then used it to buy tech, so maybe it doesn't matter afterall?

Hmm actually I think you would get +2 gold at the standard 5.5.0 rate. I got +3 gold at 2.8.0 and an extra turn on my 40 turn minimum research. Unless of course you had your rate down at 0.10.0 in which case you get +4. Either way 1 gold and 1 turn of research only has a minor impact on the game I suspect.
 
Well, consider this: if you could cut the time that it takes to build a warrior by one turn, would you? If you could go a little farther with your scout, would you? If you could get one free gold (at a time when one gold matters), would you? Now that I know this, I will do it every time. It is absolutely worth it.
 
Hehe, yeah you're right. Well I'm glad I could give a tiny little something back for all the help you're giving me.

I am honestly not sure which start we should use, which one would you suggest? Of course we cannot play one start completely honestly, as we will know spoiler information from the other starts that have occured (eg in my start we will instantly head to make contact with the Vikings).
 
Thanks for teh kind words Speaker. Some explanations,

As to my tech choice, ti was a gamble. I knew CB is fairly worthless tech this early, but I took a chance of us finding more goody huts. It backfired. If I hadn't had scouts, I would probably run a minimum on iron, for trade value.

I felt somewhat hemmed in, having two militaristic civilizations prowling about my borders, and I didn't want to chance an early war, and spent some shields making two warriors. NOt completely wasted, since I could use MPs. It did prevent me from exploring to the north though, which I would have done if I had had three scouts.
The settler before granary is another choice dictated by our neighbours. I wanted to have a high shield city that could be producing early military, not locking myself into an 8 or nine turn granary without possibility of building anything else. Also, Moscow would be at least size 7 if I didn't want to waste population.

As far as saves goes, I will have a hard time to choose, since they mostly seem like fine saves.
So, having no other thing to measure by, the one with most contacts/explored would probably earn my vote.

grimjack
 
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