[Feature] Additional Wonders

[Derdan]

Has anyone proposed a wonder for Congo? They're one of the only civilizations left in the game without a wonder.

 

[Steb]

A couple of wonder suggestions; not sure if they've been proposed before, admittedly I haven't read through all the 23 pages of this thread. My idea was to fill in the wonder distribution gap in Scandinavia, and to incentivize staying pagan as the Vikings for a little while longer.

Þingvellir
Historical Location: Iceland, near Reykjavik
Historical Date: 930 CE
Requires: Civil Service, paganism, bordering tundra tile (?)
Effects:
- +4
- +50% in the city
- city more likely to produce a Great Artist
Expires: Statecraft
Logic: Þingvellir is as much a natural landmark as it is a cultural landmark, and so some geographical limitations to keep it to Iceland or Scandinavia might be warranted, I just don't really know what that would look like. Could be a required resource or, as I put it here, a bordering tile of a specific type. As the site of one of the world's oldest surviving parliaments, the effect mirrors that of the civic Democracy, although lesser and only locally. It might seem more logical to produce a Great Statesman, but the Great Artist is more useful to the Viking UHV (last I checked, border expansion was a key element in getting across the Atlantic) and this mirrors the historical preeminence of the Icelandic skalds, as well as (later on) saga authors. I'm unsure of how much production it should cost, but since Iceland is pretty low on production I would say not much. Expiration at Statecraft represents the Alþing's declining influence under foreign rule, particularly by the Danish (which the player will inevitably be representing). The Alþing was finally disbanded around 1800.

Temple at Uppsala
Historical Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Historical Date: unknown, attested in 1070s, destroyed in 1080s
Requires: Nobility, paganism, 3 of cattle, pigs, deer, fur
Effects:
- +4
- free Leadership promotion to all melee units built in the city
- reduces chance of non-state religion spread to this city
- city more likely to produce a Great Prophet
Expires: upon adoption of a religion besides paganism
Logic: Although it no longer exists, and its very existence is put in doubt by modern scholars (much like the Hanging Gardens), the Temple at Uppsala was supposedly the center of the Norse pagan religion. According to the Christian historian Adam of Bremen, every nine years a blot (or sacrifice) would be held there, hence the proposed resource requirement of various types of animals. With the proposed military effect, the Temple would help with the Viking conquest UHV, as well as, more significantly, contribute to the Ásatrú pagan religious victory, in which highly promoted units are required (hence Leadership, which doubles unit XP). The delayed city conversion effect not only also helps with the pagan religious victory, but also represents Sweden's real-life delay in adopting Christianity. The temple was destroyed when a sufficiently Christian king of Sweden came around (Inge the Elder), so it should simply lose its effects on conversion.

See here for an existing suggestion of the Uppsala Temple (called Gamla Uppsala in the spreadsheet) and other wonder suggestions in general. Þingvellir is an interesting potential addition, but I wonder if it'd work better as a natural wonder once those are implemented? On the other hand, Iceland has plenty of other good natural wonder candidates (the list includes Geysir, Jökulsárlón, and Eyjafjallajokull).

Either way, feel free to add Þingvellir to the spreadsheet either as a natural wonder or a regular wonder, or both.

 

[trexeric]

I figured the temple (a little more specific than "Gamla Uppsala" which of course would just be the old town of Uppsala) would have been suggested before at some point, although I think there might be something there with a wonder designed primarily for helping with a religious victory. Do any other wonders do that? By design, rather than by chance?

I could see Þingvellir going either way, certainly. But I will note that UNESCO lists it as a cultural site, rather than a natural site, and I think that's more accurate. It's not the landscape that makes the wonder, however incredible the landscape may be, but rather the cultural and political significance that has been afforded to it by the settlers of Iceland. That is, Þingvellir itself isn't really the wonder, but rather the Alþing which was held there. It's by far the best candidate for an Icelandic wonder, anyway, unless you want to jump all the way to the 20th century with Hallgrímskirkja.

That said, I don't think I'm good enough at the game to really get what would be a good effect for it, that would make it worth building for the Vikings UHV. I like the idea of mimicking a later civic (either Democracy, as already proposed, or maybe Constitution (would a free specialist be better?)), and I think it would be important (and useful) to use it to represent Iceland's cultural preeminence among the medieval Norse, which isn't wholly separate from Iceland's unique societal structure, but, as I said, I'm no expert on the game, so I don't know what best would fit, and I think I'll refrain from putting it on the spreadsheet until there's a better idea than mine.

A related, but separate thought: could the building conditions be that it must be built in a colony? I don't really know the mechanics behind colonies, but historically for all intents and purposes that's what Iceland was, as well as Greenland and Vinland. Requiring that it be built by a pagan civilization in a colony would all but completely limit it to being built in Iceland, where it ought to be. Maybe changing the Iceland settlement to a colony would cause unforeseen difficulties, but I think that could be an interesting precondition.

As for Icelandic natural wonders - the list is too long! In addition to the three you have, you could just as easily make a case for Gullfoss, Snæfellsjökull, Vestmannaeyjar, Hekla, Katla, or, and this would be my suggestion as the source of Jökulsárlón as well as the largest glacier in Iceland (and therefore would look good on a world map), Vatnajökull. I would personally discourage Eyjafjallajökull since it only really achieved prominence with the 2010 eruption. I know it was in Civ VI, but that seemed more like a pop culture reference on their part than an attempt to represent the natural wonders of Iceland. If I could pick two Icelandic natural wonders, they would be Vatnajökull and Geysir, but I get that may be asking for too much.

 

[Cacaso]

A couple of wonder suggestions; not sure if they've been proposed before, admittedly I haven't read through all the 23 pages of this thread. My idea was to fill in the wonder distribution gap in Scandinavia, and to incentivize staying pagan as the Vikings for a little while longer.

Þingvellir
Historical Location: Iceland, near Reykjavik
Historical Date: 930 CE
Requires: Civil Service, paganism, bordering tundra tile (?)
Effects:
- +4
- +50% in the city
- city more likely to produce a Great Artist
Expires: Statecraft
Logic: Þingvellir is as much a natural landmark as it is a cultural landmark, and so some geographical limitations to keep it to Iceland or Scandinavia might be warranted, I just don't really know what that would look like. Could be a required resource or, as I put it here, a bordering tile of a specific type. As the site of one of the world's oldest surviving parliaments, the effect mirrors that of the civic Democracy, although lesser and only locally. It might seem more logical to produce a Great Statesman, but the Great Artist is more useful to the Viking UHV (last I checked, border expansion was a key element in getting across the Atlantic) and this mirrors the historical preeminence of the Icelandic skalds, as well as (later on) saga authors. I'm unsure of how much production it should cost, but since Iceland is pretty low on production I would say not much. Expiration at Statecraft represents the Alþing's declining influence under foreign rule, particularly by the Danish (which the player will inevitably be representing). The Alþing was finally disbanded around 1800.

Temple at Uppsala
Historical Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Historical Date: unknown, attested in 1070s, destroyed in 1080s
Requires: Nobility, paganism, 3 of cattle, pigs, deer, fur
Effects:
- +4
- free Leadership promotion to all melee units built in the city
- reduces chance of non-state religion spread to this city
- city more likely to produce a Great Prophet
Expires: upon adoption of a religion besides paganism
Logic: Although it no longer exists, and its very existence is put in doubt by modern scholars (much like the Hanging Gardens), the Temple at Uppsala was supposedly the center of the Norse pagan religion. According to the Christian historian Adam of Bremen, every nine years a blot (or sacrifice) would be held there, hence the proposed resource requirement of various types of animals. With the proposed military effect, the Temple would help with the Viking conquest UHV, as well as, more significantly, contribute to the Ásatrú pagan religious victory, in which highly promoted units are required (hence Leadership, which doubles unit XP). The delayed city conversion effect not only also helps with the pagan religious victory, but also represents Sweden's real-life delay in adopting Christianity. The temple was destroyed when a sufficiently Christian king of Sweden came around (Inge the Elder), so it should simply lose its effects on conversion.

As a way to make Wonder Þingvellir, more exclusive/directed to CIVviking, and it to be built in the correct location, it could be required as a requirement of this Wonder that the city be coastal and have a cityrange ICE tile. besides having the pagan religion.

This way, you could make this wonder have a very low production cost (since the island of iceland will have very little production) and still make the wonder be built in the right place.

I think the only other civ that would have a chance of getting a wonder that requires being costal and having ICE tile would be CIVrussia. but it would still have to found a city in the highest part of the map and it would be in a bad location, so CIVrussia's AI would probably not steal this wonder.

and it would be something interesting, places/CIVs like Iceland, Congo, Argentina, are the few that still don't have specific wonders for them. So I think he would be a good candidate.

 

[Steb]

I figured the temple (a little more specific than "Gamla Uppsala" which of course would just be the old town of Uppsala) would have been suggested before at some point, although I think there might be something there with a wonder designed primarily for helping with a religious victory. Do any other wonders do that? By design, rather than by chance?

I could see Þingvellir going either way, certainly. But I will note that UNESCO lists it as a cultural site, rather than a natural site, and I think that's more accurate. It's not the landscape that makes the wonder, however incredible the landscape may be, but rather the cultural and political significance that has been afforded to it by the settlers of Iceland. That is, Þingvellir itself isn't really the wonder, but rather the Alþing which was held there. It's by far the best candidate for an Icelandic wonder, anyway, unless you want to jump all the way to the 20th century with Hallgrímskirkja.

That said, I don't think I'm good enough at the game to really get what would be a good effect for it, that would make it worth building for the Vikings UHV. I like the idea of mimicking a later civic (either Democracy, as already proposed, or maybe Constitution (would a free specialist be better?)), and I think it would be important (and useful) to use it to represent Iceland's cultural preeminence among the medieval Norse, which isn't wholly separate from Iceland's unique societal structure, but, as I said, I'm no expert on the game, so I don't know what best would fit, and I think I'll refrain from putting it on the spreadsheet until there's a better idea than mine.

A related, but separate thought: could the building conditions be that it must be built in a colony? I don't really know the mechanics behind colonies, but historically for all intents and purposes that's what Iceland was, as well as Greenland and Vinland. Requiring that it be built by a pagan civilization in a colony would all but completely limit it to being built in Iceland, where it ought to be. Maybe changing the Iceland settlement to a colony would cause unforeseen difficulties, but I think that could be an interesting precondition.

As for Icelandic natural wonders - the list is too long! In addition to the three you have, you could just as easily make a case for Gullfoss, Snæfellsjökull, Vestmannaeyjar, Hekla, Katla, or, and this would be my suggestion as the source of Jökulsárlón as well as the largest glacier in Iceland (and therefore would look good on a world map), Vatnajökull. I would personally discourage Eyjafjallajökull since it only really achieved prominence with the 2010 eruption. I know it was in Civ VI, but that seemed more like a pop culture reference on their part than an attempt to represent the natural wonders of Iceland. If I could pick two Icelandic natural wonders, they would be Vatnajökull and Geysir, but I get that may be asking for too much.

I'm not a fan, personally, of highly restrictive wonder requirements to the extent that they can be built on only one spot on the map — which is why I thought a natural wonder, which is intentionally tied to a particular place, might be better. I think it's also fine to have natural wonders that important more for more cultural reasons than just natural beauty, for instance holy mountains. But overall I'd pick a regular wonder rather than a natural one given the diversity of natural wonders in Iceland already.

That said, yeah, I'm not convinced by Thingvellir as either type of wonder, even though I do agree it's a cool, interesting, and beautiful place (I visited it in 2016). Which doesn't mean I won't add it to the spreadsheet! I'm also adding your proposed effects for the Temple, which is supposed to be the same as Gamla Uppsala (it's "gamla" in the sense of being an old medieval archeological site, not in being the "old town"; it's actually just outside of the city). One awkward issue with this wonder is that neither name is great, since we usually try to avoid city names in wonder names to avoid tying them to a specific place.

(Edit: I'd say that the "reduces chance of non-state religion spread to this city" is perhaps not actually accurate since Uppsala became an important Christian center afterwards; it still has the tallest cathedral in all Scandinavia.)

 

[trexeric]

I'm not a fan, personally, of highly restrictive wonder requirements to the extent that they can be built on only one spot on the map — which is why I thought a natural wonder, which is intentionally tied to a particular place, might be better. I think it's also fine to have natural wonders that important more for more cultural reasons than just natural beauty, for instance holy mountains. But overall I'd pick a regular wonder rather than a natural one given the diversity of natural wonders in Iceland already.

I get that - I guess there would be similar problems with any requirements that would aim to restrict it to a historically sensible context. Maybe just a later tech with paganism would suffice? But then it probably should only be built on a land separate from where the civ's capital is... Anyway, I totally agree that natural wonders can be cultural, too, but I just think more exciting things can be done with a built wonder.

That said, yeah, I'm not convinced by Thingvellir as either type of wonder, even though I do agree it's a cool, interesting, and beautiful place (I visited it in 2016). Which doesn't mean I won't add it to the spreadsheet! I'm also adding your proposed effects for the Temple, which is supposed to be the same as Gamla Uppsala (it's "gamla" in the sense of being an old medieval archeological site, not in being the "old town"; it's actually just outside of the city). One awkward issue with this wonder is that neither name is great, since we usually try to avoid city names in wonder names to avoid tying them to a specific place.

Not to argue the specifics of the site here, haha, just that Gamla Uppsala encompasses also the burial mounds, the thing-site, and generally the center of royal power in the very early period of the Swedish kingdom in addition to the temple, which I think would be the real wonder. That's all I meant by old town, that it encompasses more than a single thing from a single time period like the temple does. But yeah, I see the issue with naming it, I've got no solutions there. I looked a few pages back in this thread and if the idea is developed of a holy site-esque wonder being able to be built by a great prophet in a pagan civilization, the temple would probably be the ideal candidate there.

During my last 10 months or so living in Iceland I've visited Þingvellir a total of four separate times, now! Whenever someone comes to visit, that's at the top of their tour list. Given the historical significance I maintain that it's Iceland's best choice for a wonder, if we wanted to have one for Iceland at all.

(Edit: I'd say that the "reduces chance of non-state religion spread to this city" is perhaps not actually accurate since Uppsala became an important Christian center afterwards; it still has the tallest cathedral in all Scandinavia.)

I'd argue that was after the destruction of the temple (and after its obsoletion in-game, on conversion to Christianity). Before the temple's destruction, Uppsala was the center of resistance to Inge's Christianization efforts, even overthrowing him for a few years to replace him with a king (Blot-Sven) who would keep up the sacrifices. That's the image painted in the sagas, anyway, where Swedes are somewhat stereotypically portrayed as sticking to the old ways.

 

[<Nexus>]

But overall I'd pick a regular wonder rather than a natural one given the diversity of natural wonders in Iceland already.

Random idea: a World Wonder that requires a Natural Wonder?

 

[Glorfindel of Gondolin]

Wonder: Lion gate of mycenaea: The impresive mason work that still stands at the entrance to the mycenaean capital, and an inspiration for later greek literature and stone-working, and their so called "city that was built by cyclops".
Effect: + 1/2 foreign trade routs for this city, to represent the mediterranean unity that was formed thanks for maritime trade between the bronze age civilizations. + 2/4 culture.
Tech requirement: masonry + sailing, meant to be built in the earliest part of the game.
Art style:

 

[Glorfindel of Gondolin]

Wonder: Walls of Jerusalem.
Effect: Walls give +1 gold? +x defence in city? Enemy on an adjacent tile to the city suffers 10% damage each turn? (based on the springs and fortified water supplies Jerusalem could provide itself during a siege, + the repeated tactic of the Judeans to block the springs and waterways In Judea When an enemy army attacks, to deny it fresh water. (Used by them when the assyrians attacked).
+ 6/8 culture if built in ottoman era, + 5/6 culture if built in Ancient era of the game.
Tech requirements: should be built In the second phase of the game, Just before Roman conquest in my opinion, but it depends whether we want to focus on the ancient wall or the Ottoman wall.
For earlier built: Construction.
For an ottoman era built: Fortification
Art style: Even though the walls existed in various forms already in the times of the bible, I would reccomend using an art style of the ottoman walls which stands today

 

[Glorfindel of Gondolin]

Personaly I really like the video of mount Athos and its real picture, are we now leaning toward real pictures or paintings of wonders?

 

[Glorfindel of Gondolin]

Wonder: Derinkuyu Underground City, an example to one of hundreds of big cities as such that developed huge city complexes in Anatolia, used heavily by byzantine christians to defend themselfs from conquering armies, later to escape muslim and turkik persecution even until the 20th century.
Many of those underground cities are composed of 2-8 levels, with everything citizens need to sustain themselfs: wells, stables, storage areas, living complexes, churches, secret passages to the surface, and even tunnels to other nearby underground cities!
Effect: Culture is 100% harder to deminish in your cities after they were conquered by a foreign power, unhappiness in those cities and increased revolt chance for rejoining the civilization + Maybe additional chance for revival of civilization after death in case of the AI? + 2/4 culture, as it isnt realy a cultural wonder, but a defensive one.
Tech requirements: Can be really any from the end of classical, start of medival. I am inclined towards Commune.
Art style: Can be two things: an artistic map that I found on the Internet, or a real picture of the inside caves. I am in favour of the artistic map.

 

[Glorfindel of Gondolin]

More to come

 

[<Nexus>]

Personaly I really like the video of mount Athos and its real picture, are we now leaning toward real pictures or paintings of wonders?

I think you are referring to my work, so thank you
When I am creating wonder movies I have the following goals in this order:

• No text or watermark
• Use animated 3D CGI videos if possible (from other games or documentaries, etc). If I can't find any, than
• Use 3D real life videos taken by drones or similar. If that's not possible either, than
• Use artistic 2D pictures and animate them a little.
  

 

[Leoreth]

I'd like to add that it depends on the wonder in question. I personally prefer plausible artistic rendition of the wonder at its own time to photorealistic representation of the remaining ruins today.

 

[<Nexus>]

I agree. I always try to avoid 'ruins'.
However, sometimes it's really hard to find the right material to create a wonder movie. Recently I have discovered AI generated art and I wonder if that could help me in the future...

 

[Lycidas]

I'd like to see the Panama and Suez Canals which I know have been discussed previously as being problematic as they should be tied to specific tiles.

Perhaps the concept could be switched from the tile/physical building of the canals to the management and investment companies that managed their construction?

I was thinking that the wonder could be called the 'Suez Canal Company' or 'Le Suez' and that it could give a stability bonus to recognise the way it improved the connectivity of the European powers to their colonies in Asia. Or perhaps as a commerce bonus related to vassals or allies?

Maybe the Panama Canal could increase the movement of water units or perhaps give a boost to trade routes within the Americas?

I think a technology prerequisite could be Railways as their construction relied on rail/steam in hostile terrain.

 

[<Nexus>]

Wonder: Derinkuyu Underground City, an example to one of hundreds of big cities as such that developed huge city complexes in Anatolia, used heavily by byzantine christians to defend themselfs from conquering armies, later to escape muslim and turkik persecution even until the 20th century.
Many of those underground cities are composed of 2-8 levels, with everything citizens need to sustain themselfs: wells, stables, storage areas, living complexes, churches, secret passages to the surface, and even tunnels to other nearby underground cities!
Effect: Culture is 100% harder to deminish in your cities after they were conquered by a foreign power, unhappiness in those cities and increased revolt chance for rejoining the civilization + Maybe additional chance for revival of civilization after death in case of the AI? + 2/4 culture, as it isnt realy a cultural wonder, but a defensive one.
Tech requirements: Can be really any from the end of classical, start of medival. I am inclined towards Commune.
Art style: Can be two things: an artistic map that I found on the Internet, or a real picture of the inside caves. I am in favour of the artistic map.

I'm kind of inspired by this one. I may create a wonder movie for it sooner or later

 

[SultanRedSnake]

Wondering if Torre de Belem ever crosses your mind @Leoreth ? Effects amount to a buffed Customs House or inferior Feitoria. I agree with the intent since it fits the Portugal theme but perhaps bumping modifier to 200% could be worth a try? Or something like expanding the effect to include all cities? I’m also fine with kicking this down the road for the post-map balancing party we’ll all be attending.

 

[Dracosolon]

I'd like to see the Panama and Suez Canals which I know have been discussed previously as being problematic as they should be tied to specific tiles.

It occurred to me that a way to limit where a canal wonder/building/improvement could be built would be to have it to require X amount of sea tiles plus the tile being part of two continents. This way some continents' map definitions could be expanded by one tile to overlap on the Suez and Panama tiles (and possibly the Bosphorus).

 

[Cypriot]

What the point of adding Panama and Suez Canals as wonders anyway? Especially considering tying to specific tiles. You just can found a city in those places, and you get your canals. If something, it should be added as tile improvement, which can be build by workers for some big amount of turns after some late tech, and only need for this is because both Panama and Suez are bad city placements.