Feedback: Civilizations

[AbsintheRed]

With Nigeria added as the 56th civ HR is now at 172 leaders I think.
Did your plans clean out a bit for the last 4 civs and 18 leaders?

I guess Armenia will be definitely added at one point. Also Khazaria or Scythia based on your last posts above. Or maybe both, with Khazaria being part of the Turkic split?
What about a native civ from the Pacific Northwest, is it still considered? Or maybe another South American native civ?

About leaders, IIRC you definitely wanted to add a leader for Russia (Nevsky), Japan, China (a Han leader), Persia (Mahmud), Siam (Naresuan). Probably these are still high priority.
You also considered Arpad for Hungary to represent the early Magyars, and Vytautas for Poland to represent the Lithuanians. Maybe a Welsh leader to the Celts. Also a Brazil leader to represent the 3rd main ethnic group.

 

[Xyth]

With Nigeria added as the 56th civ HR is now at 172 leaders I think.
Did your plans clean out a bit for the last 4 civs and 18 leaders?

60 civs is a proposed maximum, not a target. It is an appealing figure though. I've not given much further thought on how to fill the remaining 18 slots, but I will now that 1.24 is almost done.

I guess Armenia will be definitely added at one point. Also Khazaria or Scythia based on your last posts above. Or maybe both, with Khazaria being part of the Turkic split?

In terms of available art, these are probably the easiest civs to add. There's a lot of Bakuel's Turkic unit art I haven't used yet, I think there's a bunch of Armenian unit art in Realism Invictus, and The Ancient Mediterranean mod has some Scythian art. Leader art will probably be the deciding factor for each. I have an idea for Tomyris, not had a chance to see if it'll work yet.

What about a native civ from the Pacific Northwest, is it still considered? Or maybe another South American native civ?

Both considered, but would be much harder to implement. Not a lot of quality art for these regions that I haven't already used. Designing UUs for such civs is very challenging too.

About leaders, IIRC you definitely wanted to add a leader for Russia (Nevsky), Japan, China (a Han leader), Persia (Mahmud), Siam (Naresuan). Probably these are still high priority.
You also considered Arpad for Hungary to represent the early Magyars, and Vytautas for Poland to represent the Lithuanians. Maybe a Welsh leader to the Celts. Also a Brazil leader to represent the 3rd main ethnic group.

All still under consideration. Will mention too that since I relented and decided Juárez was suitable enough for the Aztec, I'm now reconsidering Mandela for the Zulu.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah I can confirm, there is great unit art for Armenia in RI, courtesy of Bakuel and Walter Hawkwood. Finding good Armenian leaders with decent LH art for them shouldn't be a problem either.
For Scythia there is a good quality Novator leaderhead for Atheas/Ateas, an improved version of the old Ancient Mediterranean mod LH art (but I'm sure you are already aware of it), so if you manage to cook up something for Tomyris, I would say go for the civ.
I'm not sure on Khazar leaders, but I guess some kind of Turkic split is inevitable. IIRC there are quite a few unused ancient/classical LHs for art to be used for the civ. I could even see Novator's Aeetes with a different background as a Khazar leader.

 

[Kapor]

Hey Xyth,
I'm curious behind your reasoning for adding Cunhambebe as a leader of Brasil, along with Dom Pedro?
I mean, it is not really a big deal after all, but it does seem kind of out of place and immersion breaking, as he was clearly neither Brazilian, nor is Brasil really a successor to his civilization.
In Realism Invincitus, I think, similar thing happens with Simon Bolivar, leader of Mayas.
In both cases, it's a case of two different civilizations occupying same place in different time period. But key word is different civilizations.
I'm curious about you decision - isn't it inconsistent with the rest of design? Because by the same logic, you could make:
-Sitting Bull leader of USA, with Washington and Roosevelt
-Suleiman leader of Byzantines (they even had the same capital city!)
-Caesar leader of Celts (and most other civs in the game)
-Saladin leader of Mesopotamia/Babylon...

and so on. In all cases, however, it is clear that they are different civilizations displacing each other.
If American civilization is separated from Native American civilizations (as it should be), then it is only logical that Brazilian civilization is separate from native Brazilian civilizations. Or do you think that Brazil integrated native civilizations better in their society, to the point that Brazil can be considered a direct continuation of native tribes?

 

[Xyth]

Brazil are an exception I've made to my usual civ criteria in order to have another South American civilization in HR. The colonisation of Brazil was quite different to colonisation elsewhere in the Americas, in that the number of Portuguese setters was very small (and mostly male) and the majority of the population of Brazil was thus indigenous or mixed-race. Even today almost 50% of Brazilians have Tupi or Guarani ancestry. From wikipedia:

Many indigenous peoples were important for the formation of the Brazilian people, but the main group was the Tupi. When the Portuguese explorers arrived in Brazil in the 16th century, the Tupi were the first Amerindian group to have contact with them. Soon, a process of miscegenation between Portuguese settlers and indigenous women started. The Portuguese colonists rarely brought women, making the Indian women the "breeding matrix of the Brazilian people".[3] When the first Europeans arrived, the phenomenon of "cunhadismo" (from Portuguese cunhado, "brother in law") began to spread by the colony. Cunhadismo was an old Indian tradition of incorporating strangers to their community. The Indians offered the Portuguese an Indian girl as wife. Once he agreed, he formed a bond of kinship with all the Indians of the tribe. Polygyny, a common practice among South American Indians, was quickly adopted by European settlers. This way, a single European man could have dozens of Indian wives (temericós).[3]

Cunhadismo was used as recruitment of labour. The Portuguese could have many temericós and thus a huge number of Indian relatives who were induced to work for him, especially to cut pau-brasil and take it to the ships on the coast. In the process, a large mixed-race (mameluco) population was formed, which in fact occupied Brazil. Without the practice of cunhadismo, the Portuguese colonization was impractical. The number of Portuguese men in Brazil was very small and Portuguese women were even fewer in number. The proliferation of mixed-race people in the wombs of Indian women provided for the occupation of the territory and the consolidation of the Portuguese presence in the region.[3]

So even though cultural and political practices were severely disrupted, there is still significant ethnic continuity and identity. The same cannot be said of any of the other situations you describe. It's a bit of a stretch, and not without controversy, but I think it works well enough.

 

[Kapor]

Oh, okay! If you thought about it and decided that it's an exception to the rule, that's fine

I do still think that it's a bit of a stretch
1) If you do define Brazil through Tupi/Guarani influence - then Dom Pedro had nothing to do with Tupi or Guarani - he was Portuguese royalty, a Braganza. And Portugal is a civ in the mod, so it's kinda like putting some white South African president like de Klerk as a leader of Zulu. I mean, he DID rule over them, but he also obviously didn't identify himself with them, and he actively worked against the civ in question.
(But then, again, Brazilian civ isn't called Tupi or Guarani, but Brazil, so it'd be more like naming Zulus South Africa in the first place... heh).

2) Now we have a civilization that represents people living in specific region in South America, who represent a culture that is a blend of European (Portuguese) influence, African culture brought by slaves, and native cultures that existed before coming of Europeans - a distinct culture that deserves it's own civ (at least as much as American civilization!). However, one leader is clearly a native, and representative of civ that is clearly NOT Brazil, but a distinct, native, civilization.

3) Most cultures in real life are actually a blend of ton of other cultures, and, genetically, most people have ancestors living in the area from the Stone Age. So Portugal itself is a blend of Roman influence, Germanic invaders, Arab invaders, and natives (Celts, Carthaginians...) living in the area before Romans. Same can be said for basically every civ in the game (Hungarians, for example, conquered the Hungary from Slavic tribes, who conquered it from Avars, who took it from Romans, who took it from Celts... and were Asian tribe that accepted the religion and customs from natives, changing their culture, but also preserved their language and some other customs...)

Anyway, this has nothing to do with mod, but I do find this topic very, very interesting on it's own - how cultures come to existence, and how people create their identities around them. Fascinating stuff, and with many real world implications (mostly horrible ones, like nationalism).

 

[DocEcho]

Hey Xyth,

Wondering if you could give me a hand with something?

Canada_CIV4ArtDefines_Unit:

<UnitArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</Type>
<Button>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2_button.dds</Button>
<fScale>0.55</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.9</fInterfaceScale>
<bActAsLand>0</bActAsLand>
<bActAsAir>0</bActAsAir>
<NIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2A5.nif</NIF>
<KFM>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2A5.kfm</KFM>
<SHADERNIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2A5.nif</SHADERNIF>
<ShadowDef>
<ShadowNIF>Art/Units/01_UnitShadows/ModernArmorShadow.nif</ShadowNIF>
<ShadowAttachNode>BIP Pelvis</ShadowAttachNode>
<fShadowScale>1.0</fShadowScale>
</ShadowDef>
<iDamageStates>4</iDamageStates>
<TrailDefinition>
<Texture>Art/Shared/tanktread.dds</Texture>
<fWidth>0.8</fWidth>
<fLength>180.0</fLength>
<fTaper>0.0</fTaper>
<fFadeStartTime>0.2</fFadeStartTime>
<fFadeFalloff>0.35</fFadeFalloff>
</TrailDefinition>
<fBattleDistance>0.5</fBattleDistance>
<fRangedDeathTime>0.12</fRangedDeathTime>
<bActAsRanged>1</bActAsRanged>
<TrainSound>AS2D_UNIT_BUILD_UNIT</TrainSound>
<AudioRunSounds>
<AudioRunTypeLoop>LOOPSTEP_MOD_ARMOUR</AudioRunTypeLoop>
<AudioRunTypeEnd>ENDSTEP_MOD_ARMOUR</AudioRunTypeEnd>
</AudioRunSounds>
<SelectionSound>AS3D_UN_MOD_ARMOUR_HEAL</SelectionSound>
<ActionSound>AS3D_UN_MOD_ARMOUR_HEAL</ActionSound>
</UnitArtInfo>

and

Canada_CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos:

<StyleUnit>
<UnitType>UNIT_MODERN_ARMOR</UnitType>
<UnitMeshGroup>
<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</EarlyArtDefineTag>
<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</LateArtDefineTag>
<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</MiddleArtDefineTag>
</UnitMeshGroup>
</StyleUnit>

Compared to,

Mountie_CIV4ArtDefines_Unit

<UnitArtInfos>
<UnitArtInfo>
<Type>ART_DEF_UNIT_MOUNTIE</Type>
<Button>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Mountie/Mountie.dds</Button>
<fScale>0.42</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>1.0</fInterfaceScale>
<bActAsLand>0</bActAsLand>
<bActAsAir>0</bActAsAir>
<NIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Mountie/cavalry.nif</NIF>
<KFM>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Mountie/cavalry.kfm</KFM>
<SHADERNIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Mountie/cavalry_FX.nif</SHADERNIF>
<ShadowDef>
<ShadowNIF>Art/Units/01_UnitShadows/UnitShadow.nif</ShadowNIF>
<ShadowAttachNode>BIP Pelvis</ShadowAttachNode>
<fShadowScale>0.9</fShadowScale>
</ShadowDef>
<fBattleDistance>0.35</fBattleDistance>
<fRangedDeathTime>0.31</fRangedDeathTime>
<bActAsRanged>1</bActAsRanged>
<TrainSound>AS2D_UNIT_BUILD_UNIQUE_UNIT</TrainSound>
<AudioRunSounds>
<AudioRunTypeLoop/>
<AudioRunTypeEnd/>
</AudioRunSounds>
</UnitArtInfo>

and

Canada_CIV4CivilizationInfos

<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_CAVALRY</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>UNIT_MOUNTIE</UnitType>
</Unit>


Why does the Mountie show up in the game but none of the units using the UnitArtStyle.xml do? Do I need to build a UnitClass for each within the mod instead of using Type route?

 

[Xyth]

CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml is used to specify that a particular unit type should use a particular model when owned by a particular civilization. So if you just want Canada's Modern Armor to look like a Leopard, then that's the way to do it. But if you want Canada's Modern Armor to be replaced by a Leopard (i.e a unique unit) then you need to give it's own entry in Civ4UnitInfos.xml. And if you want the Leopard to be an entirely new Canada-only unit (not replacing the Modern Armor), then you also need to give it a definition in Civ4UnitClassInfos.xml and disable it for everyone else in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml.

 

[DocEcho]

<Civ4UnitInfos xmlns="x-schema:Leopard2A5_CIV4UnitSchema.xml">
<UnitInfos>
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_MODERN_ARMOR</Class>
<Type>UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</Type>
<UniqueNames/>
<Special>NONE</Special>
<Capture>NONE</Capture>
<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_ARMOR</Combat>
etc.

<Civ4CivilizationInfos xmlns="x-schema:Canada_CIV4CivilizationsSchema.xml">
<CivilizationInfos>
<CivilizationInfo>
<Type>CIVILIZATION_CANADA</Type>
etc.
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_MODERN_ARMOR</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</UnitType>
</Unit>

Neither work.

None of the units in the CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml folder show up. All others do.

Just going for the Canada specific unit look. The other Civs can have the original.

 

[Leoreth]

What do you expect when you say they should "show up". Does the Canadian modern armor not have Leopard graphics? Because that is all your change is doing.

 

[DocEcho]

What do you expect when you say they should "show up". Does the Canadian modern armor not have Leopard graphics? Because that is all your change is doing.

What I am expecting is when I build the modern armor is the the Leopard to show up. instead I get the normal one. Same as when I build the tank. Instead of the Valentine I get the Sherman. No the Canadian Mod doesn't come with those graphics. These are add on units along with a dozen others in the Canada_CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.xml which are not changing in the game.

All units are placed in the same location of those that work.

 

[Leoreth]

In the example of post 269, did you actually create UNIT_LEOPARD2A5 in CIV4_UnitInfos.xml? Only having the art defined is not sufficient for this approach.

 

[DocEcho]

Leopard2A5_CIV4ArtDefines_Unit.xml
Leopard2A5_CIV4ArtDefinesSchema.xml
Leopard2A5_CIV4GameText.xml
Leopard2A5_CIV4UnitInfos.xml
Leopard2A5_CIV4UnitSchema.xml

<Type>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</Type>
<Button>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2_button.dds</Button>
<fScale>0.57</fScale>
<fInterfaceScale>0.9</fInterfaceScale>
<bActAsLand>0</bActAsLand>
<bActAsAir>0</bActAsAir>
<NIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2A5.nif</NIF>
<KFM>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2A5.kfm</KFM>
<SHADERNIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Canada/Leopard2A5/Leopard2A5.nif</SHADERNIF>
<ShadowDef>
<ShadowNIF>Art/Units/01_UnitShadows/ModernArmorShadow.nif</ShadowNIF>
<ShadowAttachNode>BIP Pelvis</ShadowAttachNode>
<fShadowScale>1.0</fShadowScale>
</ShadowDef>
<iDamageStates>4</iDamageStates>
<TrailDefinition>
<Texture>Art/Shared/tanktread.dds</Texture>
<fWidth>0.8</fWidth>
<fLength>180.0</fLength>
<fTaper>0.0</fTaper>
<fFadeStartTime>0.2</fFadeStartTime>
<fFadeFalloff>0.35</fFadeFalloff>
</TrailDefinition>
<fBattleDistance>0.5</fBattleDistance>
<fRangedDeathTime>0.12</fRangedDeathTime>
<bActAsRanged>1</bActAsRanged>
<TrainSound>AS2D_UNIT_BUILD_UNIT</TrainSound>
<AudioRunSounds>
<AudioRunTypeLoop>LOOPSTEP_MOD_ARMOUR</AudioRunTypeLoop>
<AudioRunTypeEnd>ENDSTEP_MOD_ARMOUR</AudioRunTypeEnd>
</AudioRunSounds>
<SelectionSound>AS3D_UN_MOD_ARMOUR_HEAL</SelectionSound>
<ActionSound>AS3D_UN_MOD_ARMOUR_HEAL</ActionSound>
</UnitArtInfo>

Same direction of the ones that work. I don't even get the proper button or image in CivPedia.

 

[DocEcho]

<UnitArtStyleTypeInfo>
<Type>UNIT_ARTSTYLE_CANUCK</Type>
<StyleUnits>
<StyleUnit>
<UnitType>UNIT_BOMBER</UnitType>
<UnitMeshGroup>
<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_BOMBER_VW</EarlyArtDefineTag>
<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_BOMBER_VW</LateArtDefineTag>
<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_BOMBER_VW</MiddleArtDefineTag>
</UnitMeshGroup>
</StyleUnit>
<StyleUnit>
<UnitType>UNIT_TANK</UnitType>
<UnitMeshGroup>
<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_VALENTINE_TANK</EarlyArtDefineTag>
<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_VALENTINE_TANK</LateArtDefineTag>
<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_VALENTINE_TANK</MiddleArtDefineTag>
</UnitMeshGroup>
</StyleUnit>

<StyleUnit>
<UnitType>UNIT_DESTROYER</UnitType>
<UnitMeshGroup>
<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_TRIBAL_CLASS_DESTROYER</EarlyArtDefineTag>
<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_TRIBAL_CLASS_DESTROYER</LateArtDefineTag>
<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_TRIBAL_CLASS_DESTROYER</MiddleArtDefineTag>
</UnitMeshGroup>
</StyleUnit>
<StyleUnit>
<UnitType>UNIT_FIGHTER</UnitType>
<UnitMeshGroup>
<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_FIGHTER_SMS</EarlyArtDefineTag>
<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_FIGHTER_SMS</LateArtDefineTag>
<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_FIGHTER_SMS</MiddleArtDefineTag>
</UnitMeshGroup>
</StyleUnit>
<StyleUnit>
<UnitType>UNIT_MOBILE_ARTILLERY</UnitType>
<UnitMeshGroup>
<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_M109_CANADA</EarlyArtDefineTag>
<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_M109_CANADA</LateArtDefineTag>
<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_M109_CANADA</MiddleArtDefineTag>
</UnitMeshGroup>
</StyleUnit>
<StyleUnit>
<UnitType>UNIT_MODERN_ARMOR</UnitType>
<UnitMeshGroup>
<EarlyArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</EarlyArtDefineTag>
<LateArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</LateArtDefineTag>
<MiddleArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_UNIT_LEOPARD2A5</MiddleArtDefineTag>
</UnitMeshGroup>
</StyleUnit>



NONE OF THESE CONVERT INCLUDING THE FEW I USED THE FORMAT ABOVE!

 

[DocEcho]

I finally figured it out. It was so simple that I missed it all along.
In the CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml, some how the UNIT_ARTSTYLE_ got changed to EUROPEAN once I switched it back to where it was suppose to be, it all worked perfectly. Thanks to everyone for all their help and suggestions. Learning everyday.

 

[IanMusic]

Here are a few ideas-

This one by SaibotLieh is just too dang good. I think she might make a good Woman Chief (AKA Pine Leaf). She could fill in Aggressive/Expansive or Tactical/Political quite well. Would it be in poor taste to incorporate the Crow people under the Sioux banner? I understand the tribes were enemies- but the language is Siouan, and with a good city list, maybe that could work?

Has there been much demand for Australia? There's a big blob of land in the Earth map that always gets snatched up by barbs and Javanese.

I'll toss in a vote for Nelson Mandela, too

 

[Xyth]

Sorry for the slow response, I've been travelling a lot.

This one by SaibotLieh is just too dang good. I think she might make a good Woman Chief (AKA Pine Leaf). She could fill in Aggressive/Expansive or Tactical/Political quite well. Would it be in poor taste to incorporate the Crow people under the Sioux banner? I understand the tribes were enemies- but the language is Siouan, and with a good city list, maybe that could work?

It's a great leaderhead for sure. I'm saving it for a potential Haida civilization (or similar). I don't have a particular leader in mind for her, need to do some research. For indigenous civilizations like this I'm willing to co-opt a mythological figure (like I did with Kochininako) if necessary. No promises on this civ though, I don't have a lot of material assembled yet and there simply may not be enough. The Pacific Northwest is the the one remaining geographical/cultural gap in North America that I reckon is worth trying to fill though.

Has there been much demand for Australia? There's a big blob of land in the Earth map that always gets snatched up by barbs and Javanese.

No plans to add Australia. Modern colonial civilizations in general are much too deterministic for my taste, so I prefer to avoid them altogether. Brazil was an exception, and no-one will let me remove America . If I were to fill that geographical gap it would be with an Aboriginal civilization, but I'm not sure there's enough material to work with.

I'll toss in a vote for Nelson Mandela, too

He'll be in 1.25. As will all the excellent music you've given me!

 

[AbsintheRed]

No plans to add Australia. Modern colonial civilizations in general are much too deterministic for my taste, so I prefer to avoid them altogether. Brazil was an exception, and no-one will let me remove America . If I were to fill that geographical gap it would be with an Aboriginal civilization, but I'm not sure there's enough material to work with.

Actually I'm in favor of removing the USA, in favor of any of the Pacific NW civ, Scythia, Armenia, or the Turkic civ you plan.

 

[IanMusic]

It's a great leaderhead for sure. I'm saving it for a potential Haida civilization (or similar). I don't have a particular leader in mind for her, need to do some research. For indigenous civilizations like this I'm willing to co-opt a mythological figure (like I did with Kochininako) if necessary. No promises on this civ though, I don't have a lot of material assembled yet and there simply may not be enough. The Pacific Northwest is the the one remaining geographical/cultural gap in North America that I reckon is worth trying to fill though.

Awesome! As a little personal project, I've been modding History Rewritten a bit I ended up putting her in as Running Eagle (and adding the Blackfoot as my Northwest Tribe). Haida would be better, maybe, they seem like they were more culturally distinct from the Sioux.

He'll be in 1.25. As will all the excellent music you've given me!

Awesome! I better get started on his theme music then ! I've got lots more to send you. Actually, if I finish something for Assyria, every civ in History Rewritten will have unique music!

 

[AbsintheRed]

Hey Xyth, just wanted to have some updates on your civ plans.
Now that Scythia and Armenia are decided for 1.25, do you have a clearer picture about the 2 remaining (potential) places?
Is Khazaria / another form of Turkic split still planned, or that's now out of the question with Scythia?
A Pacific NW civ? Do you think you will find enough material for them?
Also, the Mapuche was introduced for VI (with some fairly good UU and UB choices IMO), so they might be back in the game too, as a second south american native? Or they were never among your plans, it was just me pushing them a couple years ago?