Arachnofiend
Perturbed Pugilist
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- 1,950
At least Theodora's husband presided over a Byzantine Golden Age. Things weren't so good for the French monarchy during Marie's time.
Female leaders
- Thread starter Cissnei
- Start date
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Homusubi
Lafcadio Hearn Wannabe
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2012
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The reason why they chose Dido over Hannibal is because Dido was a queen as opposed to simply a general.
I thought about female leaders for Japan at one point and the only three that came to mind were the semi-legendary Tomoe Gozen, the unaffiliated Nene, and the relatively minor Empress Suiko. So all I can say to Cissne is that there are female leaders for one of your chosen male civs.
As for possible female leaders in other currently male-led civs, the only one I can think of that hasn't been mentioned already is Angela Merkel, but that would be a bit immersion-breaking, plus without Bismarck there wouldn't have been a Germany to start with.
I thought about female leaders for Japan at one point and the only three that came to mind were the semi-legendary Tomoe Gozen, the unaffiliated Nene, and the relatively minor Empress Suiko. So all I can say to Cissne is that there are female leaders for one of your chosen male civs.
As for possible female leaders in other currently male-led civs, the only one I can think of that hasn't been mentioned already is Angela Merkel, but that would be a bit immersion-breaking, plus without Bismarck there wouldn't have been a Germany to start with.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
I don't think there's anything wrong with adding a good number of female rulers, but I think every ruler, male or female, should be chosen because they themselves were a good, strong ruler. For me, the real question when a female was chosen is not, "Can we think of males who would also have worked?" The answer to that will always be yes. Just off the top of my head, Edward III, Henry VII, George III, and Winston Churchill could all have been the leader of England (though the last two would technically be Britain). But Elizabeth was a good, strong ruler who remains iconic and is a solid choice for Civ. Joan of Arc (from Civ III) was not; she felt token. Like she was chosen just to have more females, without regard to how strong those females were. It's not that we can think of better French rulers, it's that Joan of Arc herself was a poor choice.
In Civ V, Theodora feels token to me. Maria Theresa does not. Catherine does not. Dido does not, though apparently she does to a lot of people. Isabella does not. Maria II kind of seems like she would. If the female in question was a good, strong leader in her own right, then I have nothing against their use. But if she wasn't that strong a ruler, a female should not be chosen just to shoehorn in another female. That smacks of tokenism, and who wants to be a token?
In Civ V, Theodora feels token to me. Maria Theresa does not. Catherine does not. Dido does not, though apparently she does to a lot of people. Isabella does not. Maria II kind of seems like she would. If the female in question was a good, strong leader in her own right, then I have nothing against their use. But if she wasn't that strong a ruler, a female should not be chosen just to shoehorn in another female. That smacks of tokenism, and who wants to be a token?
Exactly. I only have reservations about Dido and Theodora thus far in Civ V. There have been worse choices made in the past.
Would be interesting if they add Queen Nzinga or Queen Anima as another african civ leader.
Tinker
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2013
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- 577
The problem with Dido is that she's mostly a mythical person (mentioned in the Aeneid, where she.. kills herself after her boyfriend leaves. Woop.), and that she founded Carthage rather than being a great leader of it. That said, I honestly don't know enough of Carthagian history to suggest a better leader, and there's others in the game (Hiawatha, say) who are pretty much mythical themselves.
I think a bigger reason to include Dido would be that Hannibal is not associated with the navy or trade while Dido as a princess of Tyre would be. So she would fit the theme of the civ more. I can see the arguments it just annoys me. I prefer more historical rather than legendary rulers.
I do agree with Loaf Warden though and that is the basis of my point. There is an agenda to get women into the game but there is also value in including female contributions to history as they were pivotal to history. My problems with Theodora and Dido is they feel forced and token.
Does anybody with access to the list know if Fu Hao is on the GG list. She deserves to be there, especially with the Chinese UA stressing its great generals. That would add a worthy leader, and educate people on a forgotten piece of history.
I do agree with Loaf Warden though and that is the basis of my point. There is an agenda to get women into the game but there is also value in including female contributions to history as they were pivotal to history. My problems with Theodora and Dido is they feel forced and token.
Does anybody with access to the list know if Fu Hao is on the GG list. She deserves to be there, especially with the Chinese UA stressing its great generals. That would add a worthy leader, and educate people on a forgotten piece of history.
Inhalaattori
Emperor
So "Maria the Mad" is in the game. Just waiting for Elizabeth "Blood Countess" Báthory as Hungarian leader.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
Aaaand, it's not even Maria II, it's Maria I. If that's not a token female, I don't know what is.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
I don't think it's possible for every civ to have a female leader. Who would be America's female leader, Hillary Clinton? That would just be ridiculous.
I don't really care who the leader is, just as long as it makes sense. Catherine is probably my top 5 favorite leaders in the game. I hate Dido.
I don't really care who the leader is, just as long as it makes sense. Catherine is probably my top 5 favorite leaders in the game. I hate Dido.
blackcatatonic
Queen of Meme
I am very glad the days of every Civ having a male and a female leader are gone. Some Civs just don't have any leading ladies worthy of inclusion 
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
It was Eleanor Roosevelt.
Makes more sense than Hillary Clinton, but Eleanor Roosevelt is still not a leader in my book. She never held an elected office. And while she may have had influence, at least legally and technically speaking she never had any more power than an average citizen
mitsho
Deity
I'd put Churchill higher to have a modern leader. There's Edward with the many wives who I'd put at the same level and there are quite a few other options. Victoria actually is a rather 'bad' one as she was more of a leaderhead than the real ruler of the Empire, something people bring up against Theodora and Dido for example (and now against Maria the Mad who I'd guess got chosen just for that nickname, again, it's the rule of cool rather than historical simulation).
Oh, and there's our dear beloved Margaret Thatcher as well. Now that would start a riot, wouldn't it? I would guess that Lizzie will not be the (only) leader of England in Civ 6 just as she has been for such a long time and its nice to sometimes break the pattern.
With France as well, it's upsetting when they chose Jeanne d'Arc before Caterine de'Medici, a real female ruler of France. But then again, she's Italian by birth even if she lived most of her life in France. Still better than Jeanne... But then again, she runs into a naming conflict with Catherine the Great of Russia, so she's out again. See, rule of cool!
blackcatatonic
Queen of Meme
There are too many iconic male French rulers for Catherine de Medici to ever make it in if they are sticking with one leader per Civ.
Loaf Warden
(no party affiliation)
Within the framework of Civ II, in which every single civ was given a male and female option whether it made sense or not, Eleanor Roosevelt was the perfect choice. Now, if they had made her the leader in Civ V, where there is one leader per civ, I'd be right there with you calling them out on it.
In my opinion, the attempt to make a male and female choice in Civ II was a noble experiment. I just think it failed. And given that they have never tried it again, they seem to think so, too.
mitsho
Deity
Yeah, I agree (and again, the Catherine of Russia issue), but she's an option if they want to have a male leader for England/Britain for example.
Also, Jeanne d'Arc was the French leader in Civ 3, so they're not above such silly choices...
Also, Jeanne d'Arc was the French leader in Civ 3, so they're not above such silly choices...
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
This is why I don't like the choice of Wu Zeitian. Whether she was a good leader or not, she isn't one of the obvious choices for a Chinese leader - she isn't iconic enough, so her choice smacks of tokenism, regardless of her actual ability.
If I had to list the top choices for a Chinese leader, they'd be Qin Shi Huang, Taizong, Kangxi, Qianlong, Mao, and Sun Yat-Sen. The first was the first Emperor; the second was considered one of the greatest Emperors of Chinese history; the next two ruled the Chinese Empire at its territorial and economic height; and the last two are key players in China's modern history. They are all iconic in their own way, and as for Wu, it is clear that she was chosen simply because she was female and not because of her abilities given how many other iconic and important Chinese figures there are.
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