[RD] Gender is a social construct.

[NinjaCow64]

As such, I assume people refer to you like so because you look and sound like a woman? I’m not sure I follow what your point is here? Are you saying that if you look like a woman, that is the definition of a woman?

Close. Lets analyse one of your earlier paragraphs:

I assume whether someone is a man or a women by looking at them. That doesn’t mean I get it correct, and I have no way of knowing if I’m right. Almost all the time, it doesn’t matter if I’m right or wrong, and if I get it wrong the person will correct me.

Clearly in your day to day life, you make an assumption of what gender a person is and if you assume wrong the other person corrects you. I assume in cases where it is ambiguous you might even ask.

Really what this boils down to is self-identification - if someone sincerely identifies as a woman, they are one. Maybe you have a “scientific” definition in your head but the definition that I have provided is the one that you use on a day to day basis. What I propose is that we do away with the “scientific” definition and just base things off of appearance and (more importantly) self-identification.

 

[NinjaCow64]

It's only one of the factors on account of which you are treated differently

I agree

and very arguably not near the top factor.

I strongly disagree. Gender is like a top three factor in terms of importance.

 

[TruePurple]

It's only one of the factors on account of which you are treated differently - and very arguably not near the top factor.
Other notable ones include if you are rich/poor, degree and market value of your education and how good you look. There are also racial reasons, language reasons (access etc) and so on.

Exactly and using NC's logic "trans-gender" becomes something you adopt to change how people treat you, which they repeatedly say is not what it is all about.

 

[Kyriakos]

I agree


I strongly disagree. Gender is like a top three factor in terms of importance.

It might be top three - can't say, we'd need a reputable series of studies ^^ Won't surprise me if it is, but also if it isn't.
But it certainly isn't top 1, nor enough on its own to dictate much in the larger picture. This isn't changed by the fact that all things considered, it is highly likely it will be another downside in many settings (when it shouldn't be).

 

[TruePurple]

I strongly disagree. Gender is like a top three factor in terms of importance.

You indeed can make this case and I might agree. Like it really varies. In a world of slavery or jim crow laws for example "race" is way above "gender".

In a world of capitalism and oligopoly, money matters way more than "gender" alot of the time (at least with enough of it)

That doesn't change that "gender" is just this arbitrary made up thing to box people in with its social norms.

 

[NinjaCow64]

As I said before it would be like accusing someone of misgendering someone because they called someone a "doctor"

This analogy makes very little sense, because you don’t call everyone “doctor” because while doctor is a gender neutral term to be a doctor you need to meet certain requirements.

An analogy that would be far closer to what you are doing is refusing to refer to anyone as a doctor because you don’t believe medicine is real. Its an incredibly disrespectful ideology.

 

[NinjaCow64]

It might be top three - can't say, we'd need a reputable series of studies ^^ Won't surprise me if it is, but also if it isn't.

We do not need a reputable series of studies to say that gender has a significant impact on people’s lives. That is absurd. It is self-evident.

 

[Kyriakos]

We do not need a reputable series of studies to say that gender has a significant impact on people’s lives. That is absurd. It is self-evident.

A party that is voted by (let's say, to have a decent amount) 20% of the population, has a "significant impact" on the election. It is also not going to be the ruling party.
The point is that gender alone is nowhere near majority, and also not even near plurality, so it's just another of the (main) factors.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

We do not need a reputable series of studies to say that gender has a significant impact on people’s lives. That is absurd. It is self-evident.

I mean, look at me. I’m spending 4 years of my life at an all-boys school.

 

[TruePurple]

This analogy makes very little sense, because you don’t call everyone “doctor” because while doctor is a gender neutral term to be a doctor you need to meet certain requirements.

No analogy is perfect. The relevant point is that there is no bases for accusing someone of "misgendering" because they called someone "doctor" just like if they called someone using a "gender neutral pronoun" , since neither"gender neutral pronouns" or "doctor" speak to gender.

An analogy that would be far closer to what you are doing is refusing to refer to anyone as a doctor because you don’t believe medicine is real. Its an incredibly disrespectful ideology.

False. Medical profession is a real knowledge thing you can get a cerification for. Gender is just a made up concept you decided on your own. My analagy was fine within the bounds of the point I was making. Your twist on my analogy is poop.

 

[TruePurple]

I mean, look at me. I’m spending 4 years of my life at an all-boys school.

Yeah and people get segregated by race or money as well, that doesn't mean either is inherent/biological based.

 

[schlaufuchs]

False. Medical profession is a real thing you can get a cerification for. Gender is just a made up concept you decided on your own.

My birth certificate has an F on it.

 

[NinjaCow64]

False. Medical profession is a real thing you can get a cerification for.

You can get a certification for changing your gender in many countries as well. Here’s an example.

If you say something is real because you can get a government approved certificate for it then you have to admit that gender is real as well.

 

[TruePurple]

My birth certificate has an F on it.

If birth certificate lists your "race", does that mean "race" is more than a social construct?

What people put on birth certificates of course has nothing to do with whether gender is actually a real thing.

 

[TruePurple]

If you say something is real because you can get a government approved certificate for it then you have to admit that gender is real as well.

You miss the point, it's not about the certificate, it's about the medical knowledge. If you don't know medicine, you aren't a "doctor", even if you have a certificate that says otherwise. And if you do have suffiicient medical knowledge and use it to heal people, you are a doctor even if you lack the certificate. The certificate is just proof of your medical knowledge.

You're the one talking past my original point (before you twisted my analogy) in the first place. My point that words that don't speak to gender, you have no right to get huffy about with claims of "misgendering"
A word that doesn't gender people in the first place, can't possibly "misgender" them!

 

[Caesar of Bread]

My birth certificate has an F on it.

Ouch. Wait…they grade birth certificates?

 

[TruePurple]

Ouch. Wait…they grade birth certificates?

You didn't know? Mine has a C+ on it! I clearly studied being born better.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

You didn't know? Mine has a C+ on it! I clearly studied being born better.

Dang, I must have flunked.

 

[NinjaCow64]

My point that words that don't speak to gender, you have no right to get huffy about with claims of "misgendering"

And my point is that self-identification, i.e what people tell you they are with their words, is the most important part of gender. And that using the rightly gendered words to refer to someone is basic etiquette and it is deeply insulting to refuse to do so, like you have consistently refused to do so!

You keep going on about us trans people getting all worked up about a biological origin of gender. Maybe some trans people care about that, I don’t. I care about what people self-identify with, I care about us being treated with respect, I care about the state not trying to criminalise our existence. Why can’t you just bloody respect us and use the pronouns that we ask you to use? It isn’t an imposition at all.

 

[schlaufuchs]

If birth certificate lists your "race", does that mean "race" is more than a social construct?

What people put on birth certificates of course has nothing to do with whether gender is actually a real thing.

Just because something is a social construct does not mean it is not a real thing. A medical doctorate is also a social construct. That doesn’t mean that the knowledge they possess is unreal, as you note. Likewise gender, race, and the police are social constructs, but if I walked out the door today without a shirt on a I really would receive a real citation (social construct) from a real police officer (social construct) for which I would really have to pay real money (social construct) in order to avoid real jail time (social construct).