FfH2 0.16 Balance Recommendations
- Thread starter Kael
- Start date
Frozen-Vomit
Prince
Doviello can build catacomb librarus even though they don't need mage guilds to build their witch doctors. You once removed this noob trap by having the wonder require a mage guild - but it doesn't require one now.
Hunters and Rangers are really strong. There are improvements to battle melee units, archer units and more. But nothing to improve versus recon units. I have a lot units specialized, but if a ranger is my enemy, i have trouble. This is not balanced.
You have a lot trouble to get to axeman (beware maceman!), longbowman or crossbowman. But ranger are easy to build and migthy (forget the 20% city atack penalty). And there are no improvements to kill them, but they can choose the improvements themself.
I would suggest: make hunters, rangers and all following units weaker, lets say by 1/3. Give them more bony versus animals and DON'T let them choose improvements like shock (and similar). Maybe you can make improvements like attaking hills (+25% combat), attacking forest/jungle/ancient forest (+50% combat), ignore entrenching and see forest-hidden units instead of animals. You could even let them learn to move like elves (i.e. forest walk) and not to disturb the nature (treants don't spawn for these units in elven territory).
You have a lot trouble to get to axeman (beware maceman!), longbowman or crossbowman. But ranger are easy to build and migthy (forget the 20% city atack penalty). And there are no improvements to kill them, but they can choose the improvements themself.
I would suggest: make hunters, rangers and all following units weaker, lets say by 1/3. Give them more bony versus animals and DON'T let them choose improvements like shock (and similar). Maybe you can make improvements like attaking hills (+25% combat), attacking forest/jungle/ancient forest (+50% combat), ignore entrenching and see forest-hidden units instead of animals. You could even let them learn to move like elves (i.e. forest walk) and not to disturb the nature (treants don't spawn for these units in elven territory).
Silverkiss
NekoChan
Forest Stealth is not elf specific... It can be learned by any recon unit with Combat II and Woodsman I.
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
In no particular order...
1) Should the Druid Entangle Spell be targetable on units in a city?
This is mostly a 'flavor' issue, as Druid nature boiz are not supposed to thrive in urban environments. But there are valid balance concerns too, namely a) Druids are already pretty durn powerful and b) huge troop concentrations in cities are common occurances and c) it's pretty huge to have one spell incapacite the entire garrison's ability to counterattack out at the siegers. Goodby siege unit counter-attacks and colateral damage.
2) Explore Temple currently takes only one turn when no vegitation gets in the way.
Move a Worker into a Jungle/Temple tile. Mouseover the Explore Temple button (but don't click it) to get the # turns it'd take to do it with the Jungle present. Now click on Remove Jungle. Mouseover Explore Temple again after the Jungle is gone ... it will say 1 turn. So you can save 2-3 turns by first clearing the Jungle, then exploring the temple in separate actions.
3) When a tiger enters a horse race, put your money on the tiger.
The advent of Hidden Nationality units has rendered the Trojan Horse obsolete. This thought occured to me as I my 2nd HN tiger was finishing off the Trojan Horse that had just poked its head inside my territory. This was a shame, as Lady Luck has kept me from seeing the TH in 99% of my FfH gaming time. As exciting as it was to finally see it exploring my territory, I figured I'd better expend a couple Tigers to kill it.
Shouldn't HN units be impossible until the discovery of Deception?
4) I know this is a fantasy environment, but...people get happier the more their taxes are raised?
Just because they can gamble? Gamble with what? The muckity-mucks are running a 100% tax rate!
OK, this might seem like a pure 'flavor' issue, but it's really not. In fact, I am starting to suspect this little Gambling House is a major culprit in the FfH 'easiness' issue.
Now, I know this is a sensitive issue is some regards. I am not saying FfH is an easy game to learn and harder still to master. But the fact remains I'm playing this mod at least two difficulty levels higher than I played vanilla. And many posts have been made as to how easy it is to obtain
happyfaces. In fact, 0.16 changed quite a few things with the goal of reducing across the board.
But within the last few days I started to think the real culprit might be this critter, the Gambling House. It's just too convieneint. Not only does it add some coins to the cashflow, it adds quite a few in 'normal times'. And if an energency crops up, such as a war going badly, your people get happier the harder you turn the screws. It's just to convienient, but I have gotten so used to the thing I stopped thinking about how it might be affecting other issues we all have been discussing.
What if the GH was changed to provide a flat +1?
The GH is not available unitl midway in the tree, so each civ should have adequate happycap levels by this time. So ithis change would not crimp the critical early development stage. It would tend to crimp the massive endgame city sizes.
Such a change would allow more happycap management to be achieved through civics, for example. Advocates of the garrison happycap effect would argue from firmer ground. People who dislike the +
effect from Republic would have more of a case.
If you feel that 0.16 still makes happiness management a bit to easy, consider if the Gambling House is a good place to target a change.
1) Should the Druid Entangle Spell be targetable on units in a city?
This is mostly a 'flavor' issue, as Druid nature boiz are not supposed to thrive in urban environments. But there are valid balance concerns too, namely a) Druids are already pretty durn powerful and b) huge troop concentrations in cities are common occurances and c) it's pretty huge to have one spell incapacite the entire garrison's ability to counterattack out at the siegers. Goodby siege unit counter-attacks and colateral damage.
2) Explore Temple currently takes only one turn when no vegitation gets in the way.
Move a Worker into a Jungle/Temple tile. Mouseover the Explore Temple button (but don't click it) to get the # turns it'd take to do it with the Jungle present. Now click on Remove Jungle. Mouseover Explore Temple again after the Jungle is gone ... it will say 1 turn. So you can save 2-3 turns by first clearing the Jungle, then exploring the temple in separate actions.
3) When a tiger enters a horse race, put your money on the tiger.
The advent of Hidden Nationality units has rendered the Trojan Horse obsolete. This thought occured to me as I my 2nd HN tiger was finishing off the Trojan Horse that had just poked its head inside my territory. This was a shame, as Lady Luck has kept me from seeing the TH in 99% of my FfH gaming time. As exciting as it was to finally see it exploring my territory, I figured I'd better expend a couple Tigers to kill it.
Shouldn't HN units be impossible until the discovery of Deception?
4) I know this is a fantasy environment, but...people get happier the more their taxes are raised?
Just because they can gamble? Gamble with what? The muckity-mucks are running a 100% tax rate!
OK, this might seem like a pure 'flavor' issue, but it's really not. In fact, I am starting to suspect this little Gambling House is a major culprit in the FfH 'easiness' issue.
Now, I know this is a sensitive issue is some regards. I am not saying FfH is an easy game to learn and harder still to master. But the fact remains I'm playing this mod at least two difficulty levels higher than I played vanilla. And many posts have been made as to how easy it is to obtain
happyfaces. In fact, 0.16 changed quite a few things with the goal of reducing across the board.But within the last few days I started to think the real culprit might be this critter, the Gambling House. It's just too convieneint. Not only does it add some coins to the cashflow, it adds quite a few
in 'normal times'. And if an energency crops up, such as a war going badly, your people get happier the harder you turn the screws. It's just to convienient, but I have gotten so used to the thing I stopped thinking about how it might be affecting other issues we all have been discussing.What if the GH was changed to provide a flat +1
? The GH is not available unitl midway in the tree, so each civ should have adequate happycap levels by this time. So ithis change would not crimp the critical early development stage. It would tend to crimp the massive endgame city sizes.
Such a change would allow more happycap management to be achieved through civics, for example. Advocates of the garrison happycap effect would argue from firmer ground. People who dislike the +
effect from Republic would have more of a case.If you feel that 0.16 still makes happiness management a bit to easy, consider if the Gambling House is a good place to target a change.
Sureshot
Goddess
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,771
happiness isnt easy to come by, and the 10 from maxed out gambling house means 0% science rate and is insufficient to deal with mounting unhappiness
when you've got wars going on and everyone using republic things like gambling houses or garrison happiness are the only thing you can adjust to deal with it, in the case of gambling house you give up research (people are happy, the government is spending money on leisure instead of R&D), in the case of garrison you give up gold and offensive capability.
both are nice features that allow interesting reactive gameplay, removing good features that allow valid strategies is limiting the game and is by no means a good idea.
when you've got wars going on and everyone using republic things like gambling houses or garrison happiness are the only thing you can adjust to deal with it, in the case of gambling house you give up research (people are happy, the government is spending money on leisure instead of R&D), in the case of garrison you give up gold and offensive capability.
both are nice features that allow interesting reactive gameplay, removing good features that allow valid strategies is limiting the game and is by no means a good idea.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Don't confuse a lack of strategy with an abundance of strategy. If you can do whatever you like and still win, that's not strategy. You should have to make some tough decisions, in situations where there's not meant to be an easy way out.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
... So the decision on whether or not to have any hammers at all isn't a tough one?
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
Sureshot said:
If happiness is not easy to come by, I must be hacking the code to get 20+ sized cities all over the map game after game after game. But that does not sound like me as hacking requires hard work.
The tradeoffs you describe also apply to the Theatre. That +10 happiness in emergencies would still be possible in ffH via the Theatre, which adds some utility to the oft-neglected Agriculture tech line.
A careful reading of my proposal is no to eliminatate the happiness potential from the GH, but to redistribute it to different functions. As mentioned, I would rather see some happyfaces available, somehow, from a garrison effect than I would from a GH effect. Units require upkeep, a GH generates profit. I thought you of all posters would agree with this, but oh well.
Sureshot
Goddess
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,771
of course im not making any sense, im saying what they're saying but putting it in simpler terms, and what theyre saying makes no sense.
removing valid strategies that others use is a horrid idea, and just pigeon holes people into doing the same thing every time.
removing valid strategies that others use is a horrid idea, and just pigeon holes people into doing the same thing every time.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Instead of making sarcastic replies to our arguments, perhaps you'd care to make some of your own? I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying that the more strategies a game has, the better it is?
Sureshot
Goddess
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,771
im not gonna bother anymore, ive had to go over the same point several times
go ahead and call for removal, it doesn't matter if you pull out someones chair from under them, you didn't like the way it was on the floor there, mocking you, thinking its so perfect lol
go ahead and call for removal, it doesn't matter if you pull out someones chair from under them, you didn't like the way it was on the floor there, mocking you, thinking its so perfect lol
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
All I did was post an observation. I am sorry I have a different opinion of gaming. But that's all I do. I post my opinions, or my ideas, and they get listend to or ignored or whatever. I just like gaming theory. I like talking about game mechanics. It's what I do.
Sureshot, you just have to learn to accept the fact people will suggest things you don't like. What's teh big deal? Besides, you already can and do mod FfH to get rid of anything you don't like, so why all the passion?
(I appologize in advance to the community for posting this message. I am not trying to escalate things. No more posts from me.)
Sureshot, you just have to learn to accept the fact people will suggest things you don't like. What's teh big deal? Besides, you already can and do mod FfH to get rid of anything you don't like, so why all the passion?
(I appologize in advance to the community for posting this message. I am not trying to escalate things. No more posts from me.)
Silverkiss
NekoChan
Let´s all calm down... Its just a game after all... No need to fight for something like this ! ;D
Sureshot
Goddess
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,771
no worries from me, but you might think to not say something you need to apologize in advance for, since it seems to me that its obvious you think it not right if you feel the need to apologize for it. with such foresight one could just not say it, for a question is an attempt to pursue, and then no need for apology.
anyways, ive nothing left to say on the other topic, i just wish others would think of the people who can't mod for themselves.
anyways, ive nothing left to say on the other topic, i just wish others would think of the people who can't mod for themselves.
Sureshot
Goddess
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,771
cool, i agree with that, and think its quite noble. so, i'll comment on that part and appeal to gaming theory, since my reasoning is also from a gaming theory perspective. i believe options are invaluable, and removing them is a grievous sin against the replayability of a game.Unser Giftzwerg said:
given the nature of this game, that of players with, give-or-take, the same basic abilities, anything that adds an option that is available to all is not only balanced (by virtue of the fact it is available to all), but also applaudable for the new avenues of play it creates.
BCalchet
Human, all too human.
Sureshot said:
I fear I'd have to argue against the whole 'available to all = balanced' idea - while I suppose external balance - as in, all players have the same chance of winning - is important, internal balance is as well.
If no-upkeep civic A has only +1 happy and is available at tech C, and no-upkeep civic B has only +2 happy and is available at tech C as well, we have a balance issue despite all players being able to use the superior civic B.
(Now, there are no such issues this clear in FFH right now possibly barring some in the Compassion tree, but that should have illustrated my point.)
_____
Early .16 aristocracy was overpowered, that much is clear, and happy/unit had to be removed from there. I suppose this put the spotlight on the fact that running a cheap 1/1 happy/unit civic did make huge parts of the tech tree as well as many buildings, resources and other civics obsolete - which is why it's currently missing.
I hope it'll return in some form or another, but alternative locations should be found.
As far as civics go, I'd put it either alongside a negative in an early-midgame civic, or alone in a late-game civic. The early option allows for the skipping of lots of stuff, while the late option helps more with combating war weariness and creating huge end-game cities.
Still, it doesn't have to be on a civic, but might return in the form of:
- A building. City Watch: -2
, +1 happy per unit in this city.- A promotion. Watchman: Requires City Garrison I. +1 happy to city where garrisoned. Might even have a whole promotion line, adding more and more happy.
- A great person ability, similar to the Academy. Parade Grounds: +4
, +1 experience to land units built in this city, +1 happy per military unit in this city. Built by sacrificing a Great Bard, Engineer or Commander.In the end, while a flavourful and fun mechanic, it feels a bit hard to balance. (in relation to other options, that is, and not in relation to other players)
I believe it should be brought back, but only after the problems have been sorted out.
