Firaxis, please fix the "steal-worker-exploit"!

[RealHuhn]

I've said it on MadDjinns LP already.

I hate worker stealing from CS.

It's an absolute no brainer and requires zero to no effort. It completely changes optimal build orders. They added demanding workers from CSs for a reason and that has a huge opportunity cost (getting a bunch of military to their borders).

Therefore, it's an obvious exploit and it makes discussing optimal build orders rather redundant because everybody just assumes you steal workers left and right.

Since most Diety players seem to be very exploit-friendly, it's Firaxis who need to fix this.

I beg you. Do something!

 

[Draskar]

Totally agree

 

[Deggial]

Is it really an exploit? I doubt it:
- You raise your overall "Warmonger Counter" and may declare less wars against major civs without diplomatic effects.
- You lower your overall CS relations which will lead - if your general attitude towards them stays as bullying - to a general CS war against you.

So, there ARE downsides for worker-stealing. However, maybe those negative effects are not strong enough. What about the introduction of a minimum good relation to start a CS trade route? At least, you would have to avoid pissing of your close CS neighbours...

 

[RealHuhn]

Is it really an exploit? I doubt it:
- You raise your overall "Warmonger Counter" and may declare less wars against major civs without diplomatic effects.
- You lower your overall CS relations which will lead - if your general attitude towards them stays as bullying - to a general CS war against you.

So, there ARE downsides for worker-stealing.

If there were any major downsides, people would at least think about other options before they do it. But they don't. They base their strategy around it. It's not balanced.

Also, I think it isn't meant to be in the game. Firaxis added the tribute system which does essentially the same thing at a much higher opportunity cost. Probably too high on Emperor+ and it needs rebalancing.

Anyway, now you can just declare war with a single warrior, steal the worker and make peace ON THE SAME turn. That is just absurd.

 

[MonorailCat]

Anyway, now you can just declare war, steal the worker and make peace ON THE SAME turn. That is just absurd.

Yeah, AT LEAST it should be impossible to make peace right away. If the CS had units, they should follow the captured worker and try to get it back. So a forced war period for CS after declaring should be in.

It looks just stupid to snag a worker with a scout, while 5 different Units stand next to it and do nothing, because you can make peace the same turn..

 

[EEE_BOY]

I've said it on MadDjinns LP already.

I hate worker stealing from CS.

It's an absolute no brainer and requires zero to no effort. It completely changes optimal build orders. They added demanding workers from CSs for a reason and that has a huge opportunity cost (getting a bunch of military to their borders).

Therefore, it's an obvious exploit and it makes discussing optimal build orders rather redundant because everybody just assumes you steal workers left and right.

Since most Diety players seem to be very exploit-friendly, it's Firaxis who need to fix this.

I beg you. Do something!

You should make it clear which type of steal?
1. Dow one CS and set up a trap to steal worker repeatedly -- this is kind of exploit in my opinion.
2. Dow CS then make peace immediately after stealing -- not so exploitive as the other factors have balanced this, eg. One worker for diplomatic hits, more dows lead to dropping CS influence resting points.

I think type 1 should be addressed, not type 2.

 

[Ravellion]

Can't say anything but I wholeheartedly agree. Declaring war on a CS in the first 40 turns should lead to some severe repercussions.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The easiest way to solve the issue would be to:
(1) teach city states that they should guard their worker at all times.
(2) remove the citystate AI willingness to sign peace instantly after war has been declared.

This way you can still snatch a worker if you prepare (and terrain allows it), but it is harder (and more risky) to bring him back to your lands.

 

[Bas1c]

I'm not sure it's worth it, i often find a barb camp spawns right near there border which can give you a friend or ally status, is an early worker more beneficial than that?

 

[Maxym]

Yes early worker is more beneficial, or at least used to be, now that the lump sum trades require DOF it's a bit different, but still worth it. I think having a forced 5-10 turn war period would solve worker snatching or balance it somewhat. I have no problems with CS worker farms through permawar even though I never use it.

 

[King_Course]

The "exploit" isn't really worker stealing, it is that you can declare war and make peace in the same turn.

Maybe they should lock the war to 10 turns like with Civs. That might have consequences if you just steal from your nearest CS, and force you to be abit less lazy.

 

[Kwami]

I absolutely think that this mechanic should be changed. Until it is, I'll just continue to not use it. Nobody's forcing you to use exploits.

 

[Nikolai II]

I see no reason to do anything with this strategy.

 

[Deggial]

The "exploit" isn't really worker stealing, it is that you can declare war and make peace in the same turn.

Maybe they should lock the war to 10 turns like with Civs. That might have consequences if you just steal from your nearest CS, and force you to be abit less lazy.

I think, this would be the best solution: It is more consistent to other game rules, it is easy to implement, it should be effective. I like it!

 

[DemonMaster]

Sure it will be good if the bad effects is more severe, but personally don't exploit, I don't and if there are people out there who cannot play the game without exploit everything, let them.

 

[Cymsdale]

I'm failing to see how this is an exploit. You get a benefit, but there are consequences to your action.

(and I'm completely against the attitude that if something *is* an exploit, it should be ignored by the devs because the player could just "not do that", that's lazy game design to the max)

 

[_megafone_]

Once you realize how incredibly hard it is to actually win a (mostly) peaceful game without the early-game speed boon that you get by stealing a CS worker on higher difficulties, you'll see that the ability to do so NEEDS to be in the game.

It is balanced - the second DoW gives you a quite big diplo penalty, so the decision on whether to steal or not makes a big difference if you're not planning to go Domination. Basically, if you have any intention to play diplomatic games (whether it is an actual Diplo win or signing a bunch of RAs or whatever) you simply cannot make another DoW for the ENTIRE GAME after stealing a CS worker. I call this a fair penalty.

 

[RealHuhn]

Sure it will be good if the bad effects is more severe, but personally don't exploit, I don't and if there are people out there who cannot play the game without exploit everything, let them.

That's true. But it makes discussing strategies or comparing finish times of Diety/Immortal Challenges a lot less fun. I mean, finding good strategies is half the fun of a new expansion pack and everybody should use the same rules for the sake of discussion.

I also think that worker stealing is more imbalanced in BNW than it was in G+K because early build orders are much more cramped with new stuff like caravans. You can't rushbuy as effectively as before either.

 

[kaspergm]

The easiest way to solve the issue would be to:
(1) teach city states that they should guard their worker at all times.
(2) remove the citystate AI willingness to sign peace instantly after war has been declared.

This way you can still snatch a worker if you prepare (and terrain allows it), but it is harder (and more risky) to bring him back to your lands.

100 % support for this. (1) would be the sensible way for CS to act no matter what, and it would make this exploit much more hard. (2) would mean that you would have to make sure that you could get away AND it would prevent the DOW-Archer-DOP loop strategy for capturing city states "for free" in early game.

City States should have a cooldown time of something like 5-10 turns before they accept a peace offer.

 

[RealHuhn]

Once you realize how incredibly hard it is to actually win a (mostly) peaceful game without the early-game speed boon that you get by stealing a CS worker on higher difficulties, you'll see that the ability to do so NEEDS to be in the game.

It is balanced - the second DoW gives you a quite big diplo penalty, so the decision on whether to steal or not makes a big difference if you're not planning to go Domination. Basically, if you have any intention to play diplomatic games (whether it is an actual Diplo win or signing a bunch of RAs or whatever) you simply cannot make another DoW for the ENTIRE GAME after stealing a CS worker. I call this a fair penalty.

I wouldn't go that far. It's not like you've already lost the game when you can't steal any workers. I never did it and won plenty of Immortal/Diety games.
Besides, if that was the case, it would be better game design to give every civ a free worker at the beginning of the game. (don't do that, by the way )