Forge or Courthouse, which first?

[mboettcher]

@slaze

huh? empires shut down when rexed and no courthouses

 

[slaze]

Its all in the numbers. Unless were talking distanced (from palace) production cities, you're overwhelmingly better off with a market. And the flow of the game usually goes through mercantilism, so you'll want the forge. Unless org, forge. Courthouses are only the final purse strings to the economy. They're the post-bank, corp-anticipating build.

 

[Woodreaux]

It depends on the city type. For commerce cities, courthouse. They have higher populations so the need to reduce their upkeep is more urgent. They pull in fewer so the benefit of the forge declines, plus the extended build time further delays the benefit of reducing the upkeep.

For my production cities it's just the opposite. Their beget more quicker, their smaller populations don't drain as much of the treasury.

 

[JonathanStrange]

vanatteveld is right here, i really think the slavery bonus is forgotten sometimes. I remember playing a walkthrough here and i got some comments how i hadn't really micromanaged the forge to avoid rounding errors. But whipping is the main reason to build these buildings, 2 pop whip with forge is 15 extra hammers. It depends on how much you've rexed but typically an early courthouse in an average city (not an extremely outward one because there courthouse should go first indeed). saves you ~ 2g gpt, apart from whipping a forge will give you 2 extra hammers once you've 8+ H production.

I'm not sure what was just said here.

 

[EmperorFool]

For those surprised that the Forge affects hammers from whipping, it also affects hammers from chopping. All building multipliers are applied to the whip and chop:

• Buildings: Forge, Factory, Power, HE, and IW
• Civics: Bureaucracy, Organized Religion, and Police State
• Traits
• Resources

 

[Iranon]

Forge, because production is a gift that keeps on giving and Engineer specialists are my favourite (both regular and Great). This also goes for cities without hammer tiles... I'll whip until my fingers bleed, and an engineer slot when I'm done growing during the cycle might be welcome.

If not Industrious and can't get to size 8, I will sometimes delay whips for maximum overflow into a forge, then whip again at size 6 in a no-hammer city.

I'm also a great fan of the Oracle for MC as an Industrious leader; picking up Organised Religion slightly before or after is also nice. +50% to infrastructure, +100% to wonders before resources is a noticable edge.

 

[Norzin]

If you are a slow expander forges. If you push expansion definitely court houses.

 

[Dirk1302]

I'm not sure what was just said here.

Simple,
- forges give you 15 hammers extra with every 2 pop whip
- forges give you 2H/t when working 8 H which could be around average for a city.
- If you work 7 H/t you only get one H due to round down of the 25% bonus. So look for output of 4,8,12, ... H when having a forge.

I argued that this is (much) better than the ~2 gpt you save when building the courthouse first (there are the spy points of course but well..., don't use these much early game). I consider courthouse first when maintenance >= ~ 8gpt. But even then if i have much pop to whip away or lots of chops coming in i'd build the forge first for the extra 15 hammers when whipping/chopping the courthouse subsequently.

btw, output from building research/wealth is also enhanced by 25% with forge.

 

[Kerran]

Its all in the numbers. Unless were talking distanced (from palace) production cities, you're overwhelmingly better off with a market. And the flow of the game usually goes through mercantilism, so you'll want the forge. Unless org, forge. Courthouses are only the final purse strings to the economy. They're the post-bank, corp-anticipating build.

It's all in the type of empire you run =) Aside from savings on maintanence, courthouses also give 2 and a specialist slot.

If you ignore GPPs and assume a good target (open borders, close to your capital, pref but not necessarily with a state religion you control the holy city of), one spy gives more beakers than one scientist.

 

[madscientist]

Depends on how desperate the economy is

Reasons to prefer Courthouses
1) ALOT of cities (duh)
2) Several distant cities (conquered lands, BArb cities) where upkeep of that specific city is high.
3) You want espionage points and spy specialists more than anything.
4) You have a REALLY big empire which takes 2 land masses and you REALLY want teh Forbidden Palace sooner than later.
5) You are Organized
6) Courthouses don't pollute.

Reasons to prefer Forges
1) You need the happiness from the forge and precious metals
2) You are Industrious
3) The economy is sound or you have a well spread shrine and can delay courthouses.
4) You are wonderSpamming
5) Your cities are tighyl clustered
6) You empire is small.
7) You are more concerned with building Military and warring than Civilly building an empire.
8) You enjoy watching your citizans choke on the extra Pollution

 

[Dirk1302]

I agree with Slaze btw that researching currency ,placing a market in the capital and some other commerce cities + selling resources and techs for gold will generally do much more for maintenance than courthouses.

After an early rush for instance currency is the tech to research, not col.

 

[madscientist]

After an early rush for instance currency is the tech to research, not col.

NOT always. What Code of LAws allows you

1) Poternial founded religion
2) Courthouses
3) Caste system.

The key for a crashed economy after war is Caste, not courthouses. Caste system allows

1) Fast border pops by running an artist specialist eliminating the need for monuments

2) Instant access to Merchant specialists rather than waiting to build pricey markets

3) Unlimited Scientists for research while you are building courthouses

Code of Laws and Currency are equal in my opinion and either is acceptible to tech first.

 

[huerfanista]

It seems that once again, as with all things CIV, the answer is: :it depends."

Great discussion, though. Thanks to Mad, Dirk, Slaze and others for giving me new strategies to ponder.

 

[huerfanista]

NOT always. What Code of LAws allows you

1) Poternial founded religion
2) Courthouses
3) Caste system.

The key for a crashed economy after war is Caste, not courthouses. Caste system allows

1) Fast border pops by running an artist specialist eliminating the need for monuments

2) Instant access to Merchant specialists rather than waiting to build pricey markets

3) Unlimited Scientists for research while you are building courthouses

Code of Laws and Currency are equal in my opinion and either is acceptible to tech first.

All good points. However, I often find that at this early stage in the game:
1. Unless I'm spiritual, I don't want to give up slavery yet. I do a lot of whipping of infrastructure in the early game.
2. Caste is expensive, and I dont have MC yet for the boosted workshops.
3. I don't have enough pop to run more than 2 scientists per city. I'd rather whip a library instead, and run 2 scientists with the boost once the pop regrows.
4. If I'm at war, or about to be (either on offense or defense), I definitely don't want to give up slavery.

I usually defer caste until my happy cap allows pop10 cities and I have a GP farm set up.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Madscientist,

Indeed caste can help and yes being able to run merchants often helps more and quicker than courthouses. I tend to rely very heavily on slavery in that part of the game though so for me it's often not optimal to do it. But as huerfanista says it depends and everything i've stated in this threat is what imo works most often (for me that is ). There are thousand exceptions to almost every rule in Civ.

 

[madscientist]

@Madscientist,

Indeed caste can help and yes being able to run merchants often helps more and quicker than courthouses. I tend to rely very heavily on slavery in that part of the game though so for me it's often not optimal to do it. But as huerfanista says it depends and everything i've stated in this threat is what imo works most often (for me that is ). There are thousand exceptions to almost every rule in Civ.

This could be because I am a MArathon speed player. Slavery helps me on buildings but is always inefficient regarding military (unless there are a horde of angry Zulu at my door). I use it, but not as much as most.

Also agree on Spiritual, abusing slavery/caste is one of the biggest advantages of that trait!

 

[Dirk1302]

Being spiritual as when being organized col just shines. Doesn't slavery just scale with the marathon speed?

 

[madscientist]

Being spiritual as when being organized col just shines. Doesn't slavery just scale with the marathon speed?

On buildings it seams OK. Military it's never useful I have found since it is double the costs of standard speed rather than 3 times. Never seams hammer efficient to me but I have not done a numerical side by side evaluation.

 

[Soirana]

You can't two whip sword and get another on Marathon due to scaling.

Still works for phants. Don't remember exactly [have not played marathon in gaes] but if HA can be done as two whip it might be very fast and effective.

 

[Crusher1]

After an early rush for instance currency is the tech to research, not col.

Very situational. If I'm Imperialistic I'll normally take the Oracle/CoL route and run 4 merchants in a +6F(2tile) city and use the GM to either bulb MC or settle. The 2nd GP will be from my capital and found a shrine. This allows me to hold off on currency for quite a bit.

This leads to a massive and affordable REX, early CHs, forges, OR, happiness, early CS, etc.