Peter Sagan
Warlord
I just love Statue of Liberty too much.. So I choose Freedom 90% of my games.
Freedom vs Order
- Thread starter Artifex1
- Start date
Memoryjar
Emperor
On low level, nearly always Order, sometimes Autocracy for fun. On Immortal, it depends of victory condition. On deity, something that doesn't put me into massive unhappiness.
Doktor Vic Tim
King
Alright, after doing an Indonesia Archipelago game on Emperor, I'd say Order and Tradition work pretty well together for a SV. Maybe not as well as Liberty and Order, but it's something. What Trad-Ord has is that you can purchase G. Engineers to help rush those space parts a little bit faster.
I may be wrong.
I may be wrong.
Waywocket
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2011
- Messages
- 143
Interesting that so many people have picked autocracy. I used it to get the relevant achievements, then concluded that it's by far the weakest option and haven't used it since. Now I wonder if I'm missing something.
For those who like it, what would you say are its strengths?
For those who like it, what would you say are its strengths?
Doktor Vic Tim
King
Happiness and city state influence
Happiness is to help negate the unhappiness from newly conquered cities, and Gunboat Diplomacy can sometimes negate Treaty Organization. A lot of people like war in Civ V, so a rather war centric tree really gives your army a useful edge over Freedom and Order opponents.
Sadly, it seems to lack good boosts to infrastructure, but you'd best rely on city states most of the time.
Happiness is to help negate the unhappiness from newly conquered cities, and Gunboat Diplomacy can sometimes negate Treaty Organization. A lot of people like war in Civ V, so a rather war centric tree really gives your army a useful edge over Freedom and Order opponents.
Sadly, it seems to lack good boosts to infrastructure, but you'd best rely on city states most of the time.
shaglio
The Prince of Dorkness
It depends. On the one hand, I'm not a big fan of fruity pies like Cherry, Lemon, Blueberry, etc. (Apple and Banana Cream would be two exceptions). On the other hand, I do like Pecan, Custard, and Cheesecake (which is technically not a cake, but a Custard pie). I prefer cakes to pies in general, but that wasn't an option.
For CV - freedom, for everything else - Order. Its funny, that Order is better than Authocracy even for domination games, as you handle way better the happiness issues:
- +2 from monuments
- +2 from workshop/factory
- completely free courthouses, so you can simply annex everything and build monuments, workshops, factories and all other happiness buildings.
The only thing that is really good in authocracy is the combat bonus for 50 turns and to some extent the one that gives u influence for trade routes with CS.
- +2 from monuments
- +2 from workshop/factory
- completely free courthouses, so you can simply annex everything and build monuments, workshops, factories and all other happiness buildings.
The only thing that is really good in authocracy is the combat bonus for 50 turns and to some extent the one that gives u influence for trade routes with CS.
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
- Messages
- 5,577
I'm not an Autocracy fan - I hardly ever pick Autocracy actually - but it has its merits for sure. Two of them being massive happiness (Militarism, Police State) and combat bonuses (Lightning Warfare, Total War) which helps a lot when going conquest. On the downside, I find that most of the tier 1 and tier 3 Autocracy tennets suck pretty badly, so in order to get to all those juicy tier 2 tennets, I have to waste a lot of tennets on the bad tier 1 tennets, which is frustrating. But then again, I play only Emperor, so I don't really need the bonuses Autocracy offers - it's very much a "losers" tree, and if you play Diety, supposedly the bonuses from policies like Industrial Espionage and Clausewitz's Legacy should be game changers. On a final note, Gunboat Diplomacy can be extremely powerful, possibly the easiest DV depending on the layout of the map.
One major problem for me with Autocracy is that Order does many of the same things as Autocracy, and does it at least as good. Order also has massive happiness boosts (Socialist Realism woot!, Young Pioneers, Academy of Sciences) and Iron Curtain for me is perhaps the ultimate policy if I go conquest. Order does not give you the extra XP for units, but the production bonuses from Five Year Plan (and Iron Curtain) will match the bonus from Autocracy (and possibly then some, not even to take Kremlin into the picture), and the science bonus from Worker's Faculties is usually the kicker for me ...
On a sidenote, isn't it odd that Order gets the Armor unit production bonus on Kremlin (would fit better with Autocracy Lightning Warfare synergy) while Autocracy gets happiness on Prora (would fit with wide strategies)? But I guess if we switch Prora and Kremlin effects, Order will completely blow the spectrum ... the only thing that holds Order somewhat in check against Freedom for me is the fact the Kremlin stinks and Statue of Liberty rocks!
Freedom for me, almost always. The potential is just to much to pass up, and has proven to me that it is much more useful for a science victory then order is. First of all, Freedom may not be as good for happiness as order is, but it offers much more in the way of growth. If you have the policy in the rationalism tree that grants two science per specialist, then picking up the Civil Society tenant will allow you to pour more citizens into those abundant specialist slots, resulting in oodles of science, while allowing you to keep piling on more specialists, resulting in an enormous science gain. On top of this, picking up the Universal Suffrage tenant will keep your people happy, despite the enormous amount of growth you'll be getting each turn, and if this wasn't enough, then being able to get the Statue of liberty will just about DOUBLE your production in all your cities that are filling their specialist slots. Getting the things stated above will make you a god of both science, production, and population, leaving little to stop you.
Aside from that, by the end game you'll probably be getting 3000 gold every 10 or so turns, and you should be stockpiling that gold. When spaceship parts come around, if you've picked up the Space Procurement tenant, then you'll be able to buy your way to victory almost as soon as you have the techs required.
Overall, I would say if you have around 6 cities or less, then freedom should always be the obvious choice here. I only find Order useful when I have a greater number of cities mentioned, and plan on conquering your neighbors. Otherwise, I find freedom to be 9/10 more useful then order.
Aside from that, by the end game you'll probably be getting 3000 gold every 10 or so turns, and you should be stockpiling that gold. When spaceship parts come around, if you've picked up the Space Procurement tenant, then you'll be able to buy your way to victory almost as soon as you have the techs required.
Overall, I would say if you have around 6 cities or less, then freedom should always be the obvious choice here. I only find Order useful when I have a greater number of cities mentioned, and plan on conquering your neighbors. Otherwise, I find freedom to be 9/10 more useful then order.
Hey guys, just curious, what makes Freedom so good for CV?
It only has one level 3 tenet which improves Tourism in cities with a Broadcast Tower.
Order on the other hand has two policies which increase your overall Tourism. I know they are contingent on happiness and what ideology other Civs are following, but they just seem more powerful than the Media Culture tenet all up.
It only has one level 3 tenet which improves Tourism in cities with a Broadcast Tower.
Order on the other hand has two policies which increase your overall Tourism. I know they are contingent on happiness and what ideology other Civs are following, but they just seem more powerful than the Media Culture tenet all up.
What little it giveth is made up for by how much you can taketh away.
Stack Commerce (25% discount on everything) with Big Ben (15% discount) and Mobilization (33% discount on units) and it's all told a 73% off sale on all military units! For the price your enemies pay for a single unit, you can buy three and almost have a fourth.
Even if someone beat you to Big Ben, you're still able to buy them at 2:1 with more peaceful people. Given that you can also build units with 3 promotions out of any city, you can mass units and kill just about anyone.
Freedom is better in general then order for CV, for really only one reason. This reason is that the Media Culture Tenant is an all around boost, applying to all civilizations. Although the AI seems to lean towards Order, its usual to get at least one or two civs that don't follow order, and the boost to tourism will cancel out any negative modifiers you get for that.
However, if you're a late adopter, then order may not be a bad choice for CV, as you'll know how many civilizations have adopted order.
Thanks for the answer. I guess a constant, absolute 34% Tourism boost is a lot more reliable than the Order Tourism boosters as it means that there won't be any Civs not affected by it. Just one left over Civ that you struggle to get influential over can delay CV a lot.
On another note though, it seems that Freedom has a few incredible tenets and then the rest are lackluster. I generally choose 25% GP generation, half food specialists and Universal sufferage. After that the remaining Level 1 and 2 tenets aren't that great.
Increased city defense is not needed as I have a proper army by that time.
I rarely have a lot of GP improvements as I get a Great Engineer early to snag Leaning Tower and Sistine/Forbidden Palace. Great scientists I bulb later.
Arsenal of Democracy is decent, however I never go for Domination with Freedom so I rarely build a lot of units, just enough to defend. The 15+ influence from gifts is good but I've never had to rely on it to maintain allies, the same deal with Treaty Organisation.
I think Space Procurements and Media Culture kinda redeem Freedom, however all up, the multiple awesome Level 2 Tenets for Order (so much extra science and production, even better if u have tons of cities) and equally good level 3 Tenets raise it up a notch.
Like der Doktor said, some of us just like the war game. I have no interesting watching my cities build hospitals or solar power plants. Some games I don't even bother with labs. I just need moar military, and the happiness/gold to support it.
Depending on how the map plays out, plenty of other victory options are still open other than domination, too. If you take out the one or two Civs hoarding all the culture goodies, it gives you a big chunk of tourism per turn and the remaining civs have low culture thresholds. Science, obviously, if you finish the tech tree before clearing the map. In which case you can just create the spaceship.
Diplo is the only one not viable in many of my games because I conquer CS's in the late-game if they have nothing to offer me, which makes it difficult to get the required number of votes.
That is plain wrong. The tenet for the +2 per barack & co alone is better than those 3.
Especially since building those late game is usually 3 turns maximum for the first 2.
Don't forget Prora, the BEST happiness wonder in the whole game...
Give auto a try, there is no way you can get more happiness with order, really.
What order has for it is obviously worker's faculty, just THE best policy in the game seriously
AW Arcaeca
Deus Vult
Actually, they all give huge happiness. Freedom from food and gold buildings, Order from science and production buildings, and Autocracy from defense and offense buildings. Which is all well and good. They also all can get 1 
from National Wonders. But then if you consider that Order gives you another +2 per monument and that by this point in the game pretty much all your cities should have monuments... I guess Autocracy could beat that with +3 from courthouses - if you were that bent on making half the cities in your empire occupied ones.
What's great about Order's happiness is really the 3rd tier tenet Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Since the massive happiness you get from science and production buildings and monuments skyrockets you to the highest approval, you pretty much get a +1/3
modifier on pretty much every other civilization in the game, which is a lot if your tourism is high. It stacks even more with Cultural Revolution (+34% to other Order civs), which is an awesome tenet since most AI pick Order anyway. (At least in my games.) The other ideologies give tourism bonuses but just not that much.
Autocracy does nothing to help an SV and Freedom does... only if you have a tremendous GPT. By SV time, there aren't many wonders left, so using GEs to rush spaceship parts just makes sense IMO.
Workers faculties... +25%
can mean all the difference in the world. I've heard Rationalism's Free thought's +17% bonus be called so incredibly crucial; why not +25%? And factories built faster = more happiness faster!
5-Year Plans might be useful... if your city is surrounded by mines. Well, more production is always better, even if it's just a marginal bonus.
Finally, +25% GP generation is pretty good, and works well with Spaceflight Pioneers to get you enough GEs. Freedom also has +25% GP generation, but synergizes with another of its tenets only if you consistently use GPs to build improvements. Autocracy gives no GP generation bonuses whatsoever.
from National Wonders. But then if you consider that Order gives you another +2 per monument and that by this point in the game pretty much all your cities should have monuments... I guess Autocracy could beat that with +3 from courthouses - if you were that bent on making half the cities in your empire occupied ones.What's great about Order's happiness is really the 3rd tier tenet Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Since the massive happiness you get from science and production buildings and monuments skyrockets you to the highest approval, you pretty much get a +1/3
modifier on pretty much every other civilization in the game, which is a lot if your tourism is high. It stacks even more with Cultural Revolution (+34% to other Order civs), which is an awesome tenet since most AI pick Order anyway. (At least in my games.) The other ideologies give tourism bonuses but just not that much.Autocracy does nothing to help an SV and Freedom does... only if you have a tremendous GPT. By SV time, there aren't many wonders left, so using GEs to rush spaceship parts just makes sense IMO.
Workers faculties... +25%
can mean all the difference in the world. I've heard Rationalism's Free thought's +17% bonus be called so incredibly crucial; why not +25%? And factories built faster = more happiness faster!5-Year Plans might be useful... if your city is surrounded by mines. Well, more production is always better, even if it's just a marginal bonus.
Finally, +25% GP generation is pretty good, and works well with Spaceflight Pioneers to get you enough GEs. Freedom also has +25% GP generation, but synergizes with another of its tenets only if you consistently use GPs to build improvements. Autocracy gives no GP generation bonuses whatsoever.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 6,213
Autocracy is better in large empires with large prehistorical pangea land. Freedom could be better for that cultural victory though.
I'm not an Autocracy fan - I hardly ever pick Autocracy actually - but it has its merits for sure. Two of them being massive happiness (Militarism, Police State) and combat bonuses (Lightning Warfare, Total War) which helps a lot when going conquest. On the downside, I find that most of the tier 1 and tier 3 Autocracy tennets suck pretty badly, so in order to get to all those juicy tier 2 tennets, I have to waste a lot of tennets on the bad tier 1 tennets, which is frustrating. But then again, I play only Emperor, so I don't really need the bonuses Autocracy offers - it's very much a "losers" tree, and if you play Diety, supposedly the bonuses from policies like Industrial Espionage and Clausewitz's Legacy should be game changers. On a final note, Gunboat Diplomacy can be extremely powerful, possibly the easiest DV depending on the layout of the map.
One major problem for me with Autocracy is that Order does many of the same things as Autocracy, and does it at least as good. Order also has massive happiness boosts (Socialist Realism woot!, Young Pioneers, Academy of Sciences) and Iron Curtain for me is perhaps the ultimate policy if I go conquest. Order does not give you the extra XP for units, but the production bonuses from Five Year Plan (and Iron Curtain) will match the bonus from Autocracy (and possibly then some, not even to take Kremlin into the picture), and the science bonus from Worker's Faculties is usually the kicker for me ...
On a sidenote, isn't it odd that Order gets the Armor unit production bonus on Kremlin (would fit better with Autocracy Lightning Warfare synergy) while Autocracy gets happiness on Prora (would fit with wide strategies)? But I guess if we switch Prora and Kremlin effects, Order will completely blow the spectrum ... the only thing that holds Order somewhat in check against Freedom for me is the fact the Kremlin stinks and Statue of Liberty rocks!
Futurism is pretty useful. Not as much to win a cultural victory, but to quickly get influence over the civs that are languishing on the bottom of the pile so you can scoop up their cities without having to deal with massive population loss and long unrest.
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