Frimlin's Conquests Trait Mod

[Frimlin]

Note: This mod has now been updated to version 1.1. Please see below for a list of changes. Thank you!

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This is a pretty simple mod, but I quite like it.

All I've done is re-assign some of the Traits for some of the Civs. I tried to make sure every Civ had a unique combination of two traits, and also that their traits were more in style with my perception of what they should be.

None of the changes are meant as pure whimsy -- I went through each one and thought long and hard at whether its existing traits really were that Civilization's strengths, or whether another trait was more apt.

Also, a very small amount of the changes were made more to ensure each Civ had a unique pairing of traits, rather than ones that were most suitable -- Russia is an example of this. But note, this is very rare -- most changes were made for a better reason than uniqueness!

As an example, if a Civilization was known for its scientific endeavours mostly in regard to Agriculture, then it is more an Agricultural trait than a Scientific one. This is just an example of some of my reasoning. I may explain more of the changes, in time. But I'm very busy with my work and hardly ever have spare time other than for simply playing Civ3.

There are a few I'm still unsure about, and I may update them again in time. Also I might delete the other, non-trait modifications to make this mod more "pure." But no promises.

All Civs should also have the correct starting Techs to match. Also, the new Expansionist civs should be able to build Scouts. If there's an error with starting Techs or any other knock on effects from these trait changes, please let me know.

Please download this mod using the Attached File link at the bottom of this post. Inside the downloaded ZIP file, you'll find an Excel spreadsheet detailing the trait changes.

List of changes

The modified Civ traits include:
(- indicates a trait removed, + indicates a trait added)

Rome : Expansionist, Industrious
(-Militaristic, -Commercial, +Expansionist, +Industrious.)

Egypt : Agricultural, Industrious
(-Religious, +Agricultural.)

Greece : Expansionist, Scientific
(-Commercial, +Expansionist. Can anyone say Alexander?)

Britain : Expansionist, Commercial
(-Seafaring, +Commercial.)

China : Scientific, Agricultural
(-Militaristic, -Industrious, +Scientific, +Agricultural.)

Japan : Militaristic, Industrious
(-Religious, +Industrious.)

Carthage : Commercial, Seafaring
(-Industrious, +Commercial.)

Zululand : Expansionist, Agricultural
(-Militaristic, +Agricultural.)

Arabia : Religious, Militaristic
(-Expansionist, +Militaristic.)

Hittites : Commercial, Militaristic
(-Expansionist, +Militaristic)

Maya : Expansionist, Agricultural
(-Industrious, +Expansionist.)

Inca : Religious, Industrial
(-Expansionist, -Agricultural, +Religious, +Industrial.)

Ottomans : Industrious, Militaristic
(-Scientific, +Militaristic)

America : Expansionist, Religious
(-Industrious, +Religous.)

Sumeria : Agricultural, Commercial
(-Scientific, +Commercial.)

Russia : Scientific, Industrious
(-Expansionist, +Industrious.)

Aztecs : Agricultural, Militaristic
(-Religious, +Agricultural.)

Iroquois : Expansionist, Commercial
(-Religious, +Commercial)

Those that remain the same as in C3C:

Portugal - Expansionist, Seafaring
Celts - Religious, Agricultural
India - Religious, Commercial
Mongols - Expansionist, Militaristic
Persia - Scientific, Industrious
Netherlands - Agricultural, Seafaring
Scandinavia - Seafaring, Militaristic
France - Commercial, Industrious
Germany - Scientific, Militaristic
Babylon - Religious, Scientific
Korea - Scientific, Commercial
Byzantines - Scientific, Seafaring
Spain - Religious, Seafaring

The other changes:

There's also a couple of other changes, which I may keep or remove at but a whim.

Changes in v1.1:

EDIT: Scouts are now 0/1/2 and still cost more, at 12.
EDIT: Explorers are now also 0/1/2, and still cost more, at 22. They can no longer be upgraded.
EDIT: Conquistadors can no longer be upgraded to Cavalry.
ADD: Quite a few more British city names added, and reordered.
EDIT: India has lost the Agricultural trait, and now has Commercial instead. Because of this change, it is now back to how it is in C3C.
EDIT: Japan has lost the Seafaring trait, and now has Militaristic instead.
EDIT: The Celts have lost the Commercial trait, and now have Agricultural instead. Because of this change, it is now back to how it is in C3C.

Present in version v1.0:

Civ traits reordered for many Civs, with the goal of ensuring all trait pairings were unique. Please read above to see the Civs with modified traits, or check the Excel spreadsheet in the download, below.
Scouts are now 1/1/2 and cost more, at 12.
Explorers are now 1/2/2 and cost more, at 22. They now can be upgraded to Cavalry.
Conquistadors are now slightly cheaper, at 70. They now can be upgraded to Cavalry.
Curragh has been renamed to Sail. (I just like it better.)
Modern Armor has been renamed to Mech Tank. (C'mon -- "Modern Armor"? Seems like a defence unit!)
England renamed to Britain.
Britain has more City Names, including some major Scottish cities and some more English ones. No other changes to Britain made (GL names... etc)
America's City Name list now includes the English ones, so there's even less chance of seeing New Los Angeles and Los Angeles 2 -- those kind of names annoy me so much!
Byzantines' City Name list now includes the Roman ones, for the same reason as above.

Disclaimer

I made this mod very quickly and wanted to release it quickly too -- please take this into consideration.

If any of my changes are historically correct, that's great. And if not, then I don't really care but I'd love to hear your polite suggestions otherwise. Basically, I will be ignoring any rude comments or unhelpful criticisms -- this is a fun mod, not a serious one. I may update it as I go, but I knew if I didn't release it as it is, right now, then I would probably never bother.

I am sure some of the changes have broken the game balance. Oh well. Maybe I might change it to rebalance any obviously powerful Civs, but then again, sometimes knowing exactly which Civs are tough is good.

I will not be able to provide much, if any, email support for this mod -- so it is provided as is, and without the promise of future updates or further modifications. If this is unacceptable to you, simply do not use this mod.

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This is the first mod I've actually bothered to release, which is funny because it's also the most simplest I've made. Maybe sometime I'll get around to posting the others!

Thanks! Enjoy.

Download this Mod here:
v1.0 removed after 43 downloads.

Current version: v1.1, Download Size: 34KB
17+ downloads since posted.
http://www.frimlin.com/civ/frimlin_trait_mod_v1_1.zip

 

[computerdude113]

Three things. First is England's not seafearing? Their navy has been one of the largest aprts of their history! Not to mention they're a fricking island, hence their navy being of greta importance. I'd say up until the last centuary, mby not even their navy has been the best in the world. Second, Japan as a seafearing nation? I don't think that's right either. They didn't really open up to the rest of the world until after the start of the Industrial Revolution. I think a better option for them would be either A) Scientific to show how they're on the cutting edge of technology in the modern age or B) Militaristic. This would be because when you think of Japan, most imediatly think of the Samurai, not to mention that they were quite powerful in WWII and were able to beat the Russians on most if not all of the wars between the two nations. Also don't forget Pearl Harbor. My final thought is on America. You gave them the religious tag and my only question is why? America is much too diverse for a flag that is suppose to signify a country with one religion. We are a secular nation, in other words we do not concentrate on religion. My suggestions for a replacement for Religious are Militaristic, Scientific, or Industrious, Militaristic being my first choice.

I do like that China is flagged as scientific.

 

[Frimlin]

Thanks for your thoughts!

Yes, England could be Seafaring. But this is Britain. And anyhow, if you look at them, many of the Civs can have more than 2 traits. I could have kept them as Seafaring, like the English. But I felt in their case at least, their Seafaring was more of a means to their Commercial end. And being on a *cough* "fr*ck*ng" island means nothing, especially when you're so quick to dismiss Japan as Seafaring.

I did mention in the article that I wasn't sure of Japan's Seafaring, but that I put it in there to "fill a gap." For a while they were going to be militaristic instead of Seafaring, and they might still change. I know less about Japanese history than other Civs, so it suffered. But Pearl Harbour could never be the justification for Militaristic -- if anything it was their earlier warrings with mainland states and amongst themselves that would earn them this trait.

When you look at Japan's history *in full* I don't get an overwhelming feeling that they were particularly more technological / scientific than any other Civ represented in Civ3. I could be wrong, though. But until I believe otherwise, no, they won't be Scientific. But thanks for that suggestion.

America is much more religious than many Americans think. There is a very extreme conservative christian heartland in that country, whether you want to accept it or not. And it dictates a lot of America's political machinations -- especially in it's early, formative years. Plus in Civ3 "Religious" is a term that encompasses more than just religion -- it is similar to Entertainment -- something that the US is also known well for. So although I did teeter on this trait a bit, it's staying for now anyhow.

I'm glad you like China as Scientific. It is Agricultural also because you can't look at that massive population, and all those Paddy fields, and not tell me they didn't know how to feed their people. They were very agricultural, in my mind. China was also a candidate for Industrious, Commercial and Militaristic -- but in the end I had to choose but two.

Hope this helps explain! I'd love to see you making your own traits mod so we can compare notes.

 

[Daarkseid]

Although I find Americas traits to be perfect as they were(Expanionist and Industrious), Religious is probably the next greatest trait.

The US may be secular, but religion, thanks to Christian Conservatism, plays a big role in American politics. Abortion is proving to be an issue that is the most divisive in American politics since Slavery.

 

[Androrc]

I think England should definetely be industrious...After all they invented a whole new way to produce goods. Also, I think Netherlands should be commercial...it fits them a whole lot more than agricultural, since they were, and still are, the region in europe were the most commerce occurs.

By the way, are you Frimlin from the Creatures series(sorry if you aren't)?

 

[Dearnen]

Part of the problem is that the characteristics of nations evolve. For example, America today has very different traits from 200 years ago. The early US had agricultural, religious, and expansionist traits. Today, it is commercial, scientific, and industrious. Of course, the US is also known for its military and seafaring skills - though, I think these are more the result of the unique combination of the other traits, history, and government.

Narrowing all this down to two traits for a single nation can be a bit of a challenge.

-Dearnen

 

[computerdude113]

I have an idea that has been tried before and I think it's pretty good. Give each civ 3 traits, this way you can add some of the suggested traits without compromising the uniqueness of each civ

 

[Frimlin]

Daarkseid proclaims:
Although I find Americas traits to be perfect as they were(Expanionist and Industrious), Religious is probably the next greatest trait. The US may be secular, but religion, thanks to Christian Conservatism, plays a big role in American politics.

I agree. What I feel about the American Civ having Industrious trait is that if you take the size and population of America into account, it doesn't really seem that in comparision to other countries (of varying sizes), the American Industry is somehow innordinately strong.

I was about to say China seems more Industrious -- China is the Earth's Factory of our modern age (can anyone say Made in China -- I knew you could) -- but then again, China has a massive population so it too has to be compared fairly against other countries -- taking the country size (and thus available resources) and population into account.

I personally feel America's Industrial strengths are more due to their Expansion over a very productive large area. But I'm sure people will disagree, especially Americans who haven't travelled much outside of the US. But the point of mods is that we can make what we feel like, and if someone else likes it -- that's cool -- but not necessary.

Androrc speaketh:
I think England should definetely be industrious...After all they invented a whole new way to produce goods. Also, I think Netherlands should be commercial...it fits them a whole lot more than agricultural, since they were, and still are, the region in europe were the most commerce occurs.

I can see where you're going with England/Britain -- especially as some could argue it was the birthplace of modern Industry. But then in counter, I'm sure still others could argue the same thing about other countries -- especially if there's national pride involved.

There's lots of traits that could be placed on the various cultures that lived in the British isles over time, and contributed to what I'm collectively calling "Britain" -- none of them, bar the English, were particularly Seafaring and that I was sure of. You can't ignore Britain's Expansionist trait, though -- but you could argue that it and Commercial drove each other -- and could perhaps be mutually exclusive. But anyhow, I wanted to fill a gap to make sure each unique trait coupling was covered.

Androrc queried:
By the way, are you Frimlin from the Creatures series(sorry if you aren't)?

Yes. I am the one and only Frimlin. I no longer work at Creature Labs anymore, though -- as Creature Labs no longer exists. As you can see from my signature, I'm now working on a cool new game called "The Movies" -- at a games studio called Lionhead. You might have heard of our game "Black and White."

I think you're the first person on CivFanatics to recognise me -- not that it surprises me. The Creatures series had a similarly passionate fan base, but it was very much smaller than Civilization has ever been.

Dearnen announced:
Narrowing all this down to two traits for a single nation can be a bit of a challenge.

I agree completely, and I think Firaxis did a very good job with it. But hey, it's nice to change the options now and then -- brings a bit of something fresh and unknown into the game.

I agree that America was more Religous in the past, and also agree with your mention of Agriculture. Even today America has a whopping great Agricultural base. But making a country size / population comparison with China, China definitely has a distinct lead on food production for the masses.

Dearnen announced:
I have an idea that has been tried before and I think it's pretty good. Give each civ 3 traits, this way you can add some of the suggested traits without compromising the uniqueness of each civ

This is indeed a good idea, but one I considered and decided against. I felt changing the traits around was enough of an "unknown quantity" change, without also introducing a whole load more "unknown" in the form of three traits -- for one thing it increases the chances of early Golden Ages. I just think the game balance issues would outweigh those created by my simple "two trait shuffle" mod.

But hey, nothing is stopping you from making such a mod. I'd love to see it.

Thanks for the helpful comments, everyone! Enjoy!

 

[Dearnen]

I agree that America's industrial capacity is not what it used to be. While I agree that US industry is directly tied to the earlier expansion across the continent, and thus access to vast resources, I'd also say that it is linked to American culture itself (or once was). There is a certain vitality and drive embedded in American culture which has manifested itself in many ways, including expansionism and industrialism. I think it is an inheritance from America's colonial and immigrant origins. It also fed on expansionism and success in war. Over the last 40 years, though, this aspect of American culture has slowly dissolved and doesn't play nearly the roll it once did. Complacency and comfort, as well as a growing acceptance of socialist philosophy, has nearly dried up the energy. It has reappeared to some degree as a reaction to the Sept. 11th attack, but doesn't seem to have much staying power.

I wonder if, in some future version of Civ, there could be a way for a nation to change traits. This would require some hefty limitations to avoid abuse, though.

-Dearnen

 

[Balastulin]

Frimlin,

I like some of your changes, but must agree that Britain should be seafaring. Britain had the greatest navy the world had ever seen, and their expansion wasn't so much for other lands as for other resources to trade back to Britain. I would say Britain has either to be seafaring/commercial or seafaring/scientific, taking account of their enormous influence on science. Nice to see somebody giving us Scots some credit too!

Other change. Spain shouldn't be seafaring but, in my view, Religious and Military, considering that they were at war from ~700 - 1492 kicking the Moors out of Iberia, followed by extended military domination of Spain, the gold from which was poured onto the battlefields of Central Europe by Charles V. In terms of seafaring, name one famous Spanish seafarer (remember, Columbus was Italian and Magellan was Spanish) In terms of their navies, they featured in two notable engagements: The Armada (and their disastrous retreat around Britain and Ireland, culminating in mass shipwreck on the Irish coast - the Black Irish) and Trafalgar. Say no more!

Chinese: Agricultural and Scientific? At long last! The only combination for this incredible civilisation. Sheesh. These guys were streaks ahead of the world for the majority of their time.

I like the Scout getting different values. Personally, I'd put them at 0/1/2 with 1 or maybe 2 hp's to start with. This would reflect the fact that whilst they can't attack, they'd be good at running away and hiding. And would become better and better at so doing, employing guerilla-style tactics as their hp's increase through promotion.

 

[ilikeverin]

I personally think Netherlands should be Commerical instead of Agricultural.

Dutch East India Company, anyone?

 

[DBear]

with only 2 attributes per civ, there are only 8!/2!6! possible combinations, or 28 unique combinations. With 31 civs, there will be some duplicate attributes.

With 3 attributes per civ, there are 8!/3!5! combinations, or 56 possible combinations, more than enough to handle any additional expansions.

 

[computerdude113]

Not to mentino a better representatino of the true civ.

Also, now that I've seen your reasoning, Religious for America is a good one. In game it also co-incides with a fast government transaction time which is another thing America had.

As a side note, you said that other countries could argue that they started the Industrial Revolution, especially when national pride is on the line, but what I have always been tought and what I've looked at (for research reports) is that the industrial revolution started in England and spread throughtou the world, coming to America because of a crafty guy who memorized all the schematics to their factories and reproducing them in America. So i guess a more correct saying is they invented the factory (I might be wrong, but go w/me for a second) and since that is the main driving force in the Induatrial Revolution, they would have in escence been the birthplace of Industry, however I'm not fond of them being industrious. I think that if you go w/3 traits, you should give them seafearing as their third

More 3 trait madness
I think China should get industrious as a third to quote an earlier post "Can you say Made in China" lol, funny, and a bit sterotypical, but I've decorated 4th of July events and all the American flags, everything had Made in China stickers, they even make American Flags! But yah, a lot of things are made there, so I dno't think that industrious would be too off.

Also, I really think you should give Japan the military flag. Their history is oozing with it, from all forms of Samuari to modern warfare.

 

[Frimlin]

Balastulin said:
Nice to see somebody giving us Scots some credit too!

Biologically I'm about half Scot -- so I just had to include them too!

Balastulin also said:
I like the Scout getting different values. Personally, I'd put them at 0/1/2 with 1 or maybe 2 hp's to start with. This would reflect the fact that whilst they can't attack, they'd be good at running away and hiding. And would become better and better at so doing, employing guerilla-style tactics as their hp's increase through promotion.

In my latest version of the mod, I've removed the Scout/Explorer/Conquistador changes. I just think the mod should be purely, or at least mostly, about the trait change.

But I do like the idea of at least giving them 1 defence. I'll think it over. My main problem with my "Scouting" changes was that it gave Expansionist Civs even more of a bonus, and I'm loathe to break balance *too* much.

ilikeverin also said:
I personally think Netherlands should be Commerical instead of Agricultural.

Yeah, I did want to do that -- but yet again, I didn't because I wanted them to have a unique coupling of traits. However, I might review this.

computerdude113 mentioned, amongst other things:
Also, I really think you should give Japan the military flag. Their history is oozing with it, from all forms of Samuari to modern warfare.

Yeah, I think I'm heading closer towards making this change. I'll think on it.

Thanks for your comments on English/British Industry. I'm generally hesitant to get deep into talking about "who did what first." History was written, generally, by the ones who won out -- and often those they learned from on the way are disregarded as being irrelevant -- if they are remembered at all.

And it was interesting what you said about American flags Made in China -- that's brilliantly apt.

...

I want to reiterate, though -- I have no intention of making this mod give Civs three traits. Some other mod, by someone else -- sure. Sorry.

I played as the Zulu last night and realised that because of my trait change, they can't build Impis straight away -- I'll look into it, and any other potential starting tech issue like this, and will include it in the next version I post.

 

[TheDS]

The Civ traits (and UUs) that are given are supposed to be those that the civilization showed during its "golden age", or at least that's the impression I get. As such, when you think of most historical empires, you think of their greatest achievements. Therefore you would do best to choose traits that were strongest during that empire's greatest point.

As to the three-trait question: I think it's a good idea. It can be so hard to pick just 2.

 

[Androrc]

Originally posted by computerdude113

Also, now that I've seen your reasoning, Religious for America is a good one. In game it also co-incides with a fast government transaction time which is another thing America had.

The US never had a political revolution as far as I know... Also, I don't see why Religious is a good one for America... It never had anything religiously special, not that I know of. Also, I personally think Religious should go to birthplaces of great religions(modern and ancient).

Originally posted by Frimlin

There's lots of traits that could be placed on the various cultures that lived in the British isles over time, and contributed to what I'm collectively calling "Britain" -- none of them, bar the English, were particularly Seafaring and that I was sure of. You can't ignore Britain's Expansionist trait, though -- but you could argue that it and Commercial drove each other -- and could perhaps be mutually exclusive. But anyhow, I wanted to fill a gap to make sure each unique trait coupling was covered.Yes. I am the one and only Frimlin. I no longer work at Creature Labs anymore, though -- as Creature Labs no longer exists. As you can see from my signature, I'm now working on a cool new game called "The Movies" -- at a games studio called Lionhead. You might have heard of our game "Black and White."

I think you're the first person on CivFanatics to recognise me -- not that it surprises me. The Creatures series had a similarly passionate fan base, but it was very much smaller than Civilization has ever been.I agree completely, and I think Firaxis did a very good job with it. But hey, it's nice to change the options now and then -- brings a bit of something fresh and unknown into the game.

I know CL isn't there anymore... Though I did think you continued to be hired because it was bought by some company. And yes, I've heard of Black and White(never played it though). Good luck Also, I'm Androrc, not Daarkseid.

 

[Cuivienen]

I don't quite understand your reasoning on giving the English cities to America. Would you care to elaborate on your reasoning?

Also, on the Byzantines and Romans -- perhaps the Byzantines should get every Roman city they managed to reconquer under Justinian and Theodora (most of Italy, parts of Spain, parts of northern Africa, modern Yugoslavia) and the Romans get every Byzantine city? Just a little suggestion. Of course then they would run through city names double-speed if they appeared together on a map. (I love how Memphis, Egypt prevents Memphis, USA from appearing )

I also went through a list to give America Agricultural instead of Religious. While America has a strongly religious interior, it also has the highest Atheist percentage in the world outside of Communist antitheist nations.

America – Expansionist, Agricultural
Maya – Religious, Agricultural. The Mayans were not Expansionist at all.
India – Religious, Scientific. Not great, but not completely false, either.
Babylon – Religious, Commercial. Babylon could easily be either Scientific or Commercial.
Celts – Religious, Expansionist. Very nice, very true, and it ends the chain. Who could ask for more?

 

[Frimlin]

Cuivienen -- I put the English city names after the American ones in the American city list for my own personal reasons. I thought I'd said already above, but basically I get sick of seeing "New York 2" and all that. I will probably be removing this and other non-trait changes before the next version. Though I will, of course, be keeping it the way I like it for my own personal copy of the mod. If you take a look at a very detailed US map sometime, you will see a large number of English city, town and village names are there.

Think I've also already commented on this -- but yeah, I was tempted to give America Agricultural, but this would have put them on par with China. And I personally wanted Agricultural to partially account for large populations today, not just Agricultural prowess. Agricultural has recently been labelled as quite a powerful trait -- I might suspect people who wanted it for America might in fact be US citizens themselves. But at the same time, I too have considered it for them -- so I don't blame you for questioning why they don't have that trait.

That's about it. I look forward to seeing the mods people are talking about making, after seeing my mod. There seems enough of you to work together to create a 3-trait mod -- why not do that? Please let me know when it's done. It took me what -- all of 1/2 an hour to think this mod up, make it, upload it and announce it. So don't feel put off by hard work -- it isn't. I encourage you to try.

 

[Frimlin]

Andorc -- sorry about the name confusion! I've now edited the post.

No, unfortunately while Creature Labs was dead -- before the new company started -- previous staff like myself still had to feed ourselves despite the fact that we had no money. So we had to get new jobs. I think if you know much about the European games dev community, having to leave CL was a good move for me -- it brought me to Lionhead. But I do miss the Norns.

 

[Dogmeat]

Originally posted by Dearnen
Part of the problem is that the characteristics of nations evolve. For example, America today has very different traits from 200 years ago. The early US had agricultural, religious, and expansionist traits. Today, it is commercial, scientific, and industrious. Of course, the US is also known for its military and seafaring skills - though, I think these are more the result of the unique combination of the other traits, history, and government.

Narrowing all this down to two traits for a single nation can be a bit of a challenge.

-Dearnen

I cant see how americans can be considered "skilled" at science. I mean with that amount of money and people devoted to science you have to be quite crappy at science if you cant come up with anything.
For example if the Germans had the superpower place in the world instead of USA with the exact amount of cashflow that the US has today they would have made more scientific breakthroughs since the Germans are in general better at science than Americans.

Giving the americans the religious trait is also quite wrong.
They are about as religious as most european countries and that is a small amount indeed.

Ok comments on the mod...
India should be Religious commercial instead of Agricultural.
The Indians were VERY succesful commercially for a couple of thousand years ago but they are not quite as skilled at agriculture seeing as they have so serious food problems today.

Also Japan should be militaristic. If anyone should be militaristic then its the japanese!